Washington State Tuition cuts

[kalm]

I think the bigger question is why do college education expenses outpace medical and general cost of living by so much.

Because we've pumped government money into the system in a vain attempt to make it more affordable (funny how colleges, even the "not for profit" ones, seem to like taking in that money while raising costs), and because it's a captive market - we've told people time and time again that without college you are doomed to a lesser life. Classic inelastic demand. We want it at any cost, and the colleges are just doing what comes natural then.

I'm all for cheap to free higher ed, but with it should come reform. Far more vocational/skills training from for 16-20 year olds and less kids moving on to academic degrees would be a start.

[GannonFan]

Because we've pumped government money into the system in a vain attempt to make it more affordable (funny how colleges, even the "not for profit" ones, seem to like taking in that money while raising costs), and because it's a captive market - we've told people time and time again that without college you are doomed to a lesser life. Classic inelastic demand. We want it at any cost, and the colleges are just doing what comes natural then.

So you're arguing that we need college more than medical care, and college demand is less elastic than medical care demand?

To a point, I do contend that college demand is less elastic than medical care. People can and do put off medical care if they can't afford it. Happens all the time, and even more so as co-pays and deductibles rise as they have. For college, people see it as a small window of opportunity and, because it involves their child, they get even more sentimental about it. Through in the ease of student loans that push the pain of paying off to a distant point in the future, and yes, people will pay those costs, and have, much more than they do rising medical costs.

I also think people think of colleges as benovolent, wisdom imparting institutions that are above reproach. Just look at the past few years where people have villified, often with good cause, the "for profit" universities out there, while amazingly saying nothing about the "not for profit" universities that, title nonwithstanding, seem to follow the same model.

And no, I'm not arguing that we need college eduation any more than medical care, not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

[GannonFan]

Because we've pumped government money into the system in a vain attempt to make it more affordable (funny how colleges, even the "not for profit" ones, seem to like taking in that money while raising costs), and because it's a captive market - we've told people time and time again that without college you are doomed to a lesser life. Classic inelastic demand. We want it at any cost, and the colleges are just doing what comes natural then.

I'm all for cheap to free higher ed, but with it should come reform. Far more vocational/skills training from for 16-20 year olds and less kids moving on to academic degrees would be a start.

That's great, just need to decide how we pick and choose who goes where. Do we have do or die tests like they do in places like China and the UK? How do we stop kids from moving on to academic degrees? Do we bar them? What do we do if there's a racial or gender disparity of outcome when we do that? It sounds like a great start, just really short on details.

Classic modern day progressivism - great ideas, no idea how to get there.

[kalm]

I'm all for cheap to free higher ed, but with it should come reform. Far more vocational/skills training from for 16-20 year olds and less kids moving on to academic degrees would be a start.

That's great, just need to decide how we pick and choose who goes where. Do we have do or die tests like they do in places like China and the UK? How do we stop kids from moving on to academic degrees? Do we bar them? What do we do if there's a racial or gender disparity of outcome when we do that? It sounds like a great start, just really short on details.

Classic modern day progressivism - great ideas, no idea how to get there.

Fast track testing in middle school with a chance to (l)earn your way back in through testing in high school or later. You wouldn't have to bar anyone, they'd just have to show proficiency on their own. IOW's it would be on your own dime and time.

IIRC, Finland has done something similar with success already.

Classic conservative establishment bitching, with no regard for new ideas.

[GannonFan]

That's great, just need to decide how we pick and choose who goes where. Do we have do or die tests like they do in places like China and the UK? How do we stop kids from moving on to academic degrees? Do we bar them? What do we do if there's a racial or gender disparity of outcome when we do that? It sounds like a great start, just really short on details.

Classic modern day progressivism - great ideas, no idea how to get there.

Fast track testing in middle school with a chance to (l)earn your way back in through testing in high school or later. You wouldn't have to bar anyone, they'd just have to show proficiency on their own. IOW's it would be on your own dime and time.

IIRC, Finland has done something similar with success already.

Classic conservative establishment bitching, with no regard for new ideas.

So says the guy who wants to resurrect Hawley-Smoot - how is that a new idea?

And do you seriously think proficiency testing will work here? We already have people opting out in large numbers on the testing we have in place now, and Common Core is going to go down in flames in the next couple of years. I like the new ideas, but they have to be somewhat reasonable and have a chance of working. How do you think proficiency testing will fly in this country when, if actually implemented, would significantly impact the poor and under-privileged and direct them, without choice (they don't have the dimes to do it on their own), into vocational jobs while well-to-do, and I'm sure ethnically whiter and more Asian, move on to the more lucrative academic tracks? It doesn't have a prayer of working and you either should know it or you do know it and just want to ignore the unrealisticness (I made that word up I think) of it.

IMO, you can have better success, without your Orwellian approach to determing what each person should pursue in life, by holding the colleges accountable for the outcome and successes of their students. We already have approached that idea with the so called "for profit" schools, now it's time to do the same for the "not for profit schools". How schools liked LaSalle and St Joe's and Rider can and do charge $50k or more per year is borderline criminal - and people who pay those tuitions and end up in years of smothering student loans are just as gullible as the people who thought they could afford a $300k mortgage on $90k per year incomes back before the housing boom. Funny how you condemn that industry for their malfeasance but seem to ignore that when it comes to higher education. It is possible for both to be bad actors, as they are. But then again, your slavish adherence to the modern day progressive movement hasn't told you to do that yet, so you stay mum on the subject. Elizabeth would be proud of your devotion.

[Pwns]

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-new ... est-of-us/

So does anyone here think this is really going to do any good when your higher ed consumers are a bunch of financially-illiterate 17 and 18 year olds with huge credit lines with the government who want amenities and want recognized names to go on their resumes?

It seems like all this is really going to do give the schools a green light for even more overhead. Maybe they can use the extra state support here to attract students if they add a Multicultural Rainforest White Guilt Literature Studies Degree?

I'm going to call it right now, this will turn into a perfect case study of how you can't spend your way to more affordable college.

I'm so glad you're in Georgia where you belong...
and I hope your local and state governments listen to your needs - so you'll stay there forever (and ever)

I'm glad, too. I got Georgia's HOPE scholarship as a resident and paid less out of pocket than the vast majority of Americans.

On that note, it seems to be a trend that the backward, philistine red states have more affordable college than the enlightened, forward-thinking blue states. Weird.

http://247wallst.com/special-report/201 ... e-schools/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CID1990]

That's great, just need to decide how we pick and choose who goes where. Do we have do or die tests like they do in places like China and the UK? How do we stop kids from moving on to academic degrees? Do we bar them? What do we do if there's a racial or gender disparity of outcome when we do that? It sounds like a great start, just really short on details.

Classic modern day progressivism - great ideas, no idea how to get there.

Fast track testing in middle school with a chance to (l)earn your way back in through testing in high school or later. You wouldn't have to bar anyone, they'd just have to show proficiency on their own. IOW's it would be on your own dime and time.

IIRC, Finland has done something similar with success already.

Classic conservative establishment bitching, with no regard for new ideas.

And your own brilliant idea dies a swift death as its culturally insensitive and racist testing process dies a quick death - being dumbed down to the point that everybody gets through

What next?

[ASUG8]

And no, I'm not arguing that we need college eduation any more than medical care, not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

I didn't jump to that conclusion. What I'm saying is that we're experiencing the aging of the baby boomers which challenges the capacity of the medical field, thereby increasing costs at a more rapid rate along with other factors. College tuition has been increasing at or near double-digit rates for years now and the rate of kids entering college isn't growing at the rate of boomers aging and demanding health care services. To your point, I think more kids are attending college than in years past, but I don't think it's outpacing the aging of a generation that needs access to medical services.

[Pwns]

One thing that can be done that would probably help a lot more than single-digit tuition decreases…stop telling high school kids that only unambitious losers go to vocational and technical schools. Stop telling them that you need to go to the (often more expensive) schools with more recognized name as well. High schools are judged by how many students they send to college, so naturally they have guidance counselors that push them to go.

I'm usually very leery of the idea of fixing bad choices with "education" and "awareness", but you have smart 17 and 18 year old kids here that just aren't being smart consumers when it comes to higher education.

[89Hen]

One thing that can be done that would probably help a lot more than single-digit tuition decreases…stop telling high school kids that only unambitious losers go to vocational and technical schools. Stop telling them that you need to go to the (often more expensive) schools with more recognized name as well. High schools are judged by how many students they send to college, so naturally they have guidance counselors that push them to go.

I'm usually very leery of the idea of fixing bad choices with "education" and "awareness", but you have smart 17 and 18 year old kids here that just aren't being smart consumers when it comes to higher education.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg[/youtube]

[89Hen]

Fast track testing in middle school with a chance to (l)earn your way back in through testing in high school or later. You wouldn't have to bar anyone, they'd just have to show proficiency on their own. IOW's it would be on your own dime and time.

YEAH! Fuck those 12 year olds who don't want to work hard to improve their grades. Who needs them clogging up colleges?

[kalm]

Fast track testing in middle school with a chance to (l)earn your way back in through testing in high school or later. You wouldn't have to bar anyone, they'd just have to show proficiency on their own. IOW's it would be on your own dime and time.

IIRC, Finland has done something similar with success already.

Classic conservative establishment bitching, with no regard for new ideas.

And your own brilliant idea dies a swift death as its culturally insensitive and racist testing process dies a quick death - being dumbed down to the point that everybody gets through

What next?

Well excuse the fuck me for suggesting a pragmatic, "the world needs ditch diggers too", conservative idea.

BTW JSO...I mean Ganny , it's the second time in two days I've had to remind someone that Orwell was a democratic socialist.

[ASUG8]

One thing that can be done that would probably help a lot more than single-digit tuition decreases…stop telling high school kids that only unambitious losers go to vocational and technical schools. Stop telling them that you need to go to the (often more expensive) schools with more recognized name as well. High schools are judged by how many students they send to college, so naturally they have guidance counselors that push them to go.

I'm usually very leery of the idea of fixing bad choices with "education" and "awareness", but you have smart 17 and 18 year old kids here that just aren't being smart consumers when it comes to higher education.

This.

And I've said on here before that the community college system is inexpensive and gives high school grads an opportunity to better themselves. If I had kids, I'd rather have a kid go to a community college and learn a trade (electrician, plumbing, general contracting, etc.) than send him/her to a four year college so they could earn some bullshit poly sci or criminal justice degree (which seemed to be the "punt formation" at ASU for kids who didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives).

[kalm]

Fast track testing in middle school with a chance to (l)earn your way back in through testing in high school or later. You wouldn't have to bar anyone, they'd just have to show proficiency on their own. IOW's it would be on your own dime and time.

YEAH! Fuck those 12 year olds who don't want to work hard to improve their grades. Who needs them clogging up colleges?

I have a twelve year old and he's heading fast for rock quarry. But I did mention a second chance to test back in.

Please continue with your everyone deserves a ribbon ways.

[89Hen]

But I did mention a second chance to test back in.

That was my point Kalm. You really think a 12 year old is going to up their game to get a second chance?

[CID1990]

And your own brilliant idea dies a swift death as its culturally insensitive and racist testing process dies a quick death - being dumbed down to the point that everybody gets through

What next?

Well excuse the **** me for suggesting a pragmatic, "the world needs ditch diggers too", conservative idea.

BTW JSO...I mean Ganny , it's the second time in two days I've had to remind someone that Orwell was a democratic socialist.

I didn't say it wasn't pragmatic or non-conservative.

I said it dies on the vine because progressives would either never allow it in the first place (because it is merit based) or they would dumb it down to the point of uselessness.

BTW about y Finland (or the rest of Scandinavia) being progressives' utopia - not closely related but interesting nonetheless: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... left-white" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kalm]

But I did mention a second chance to test back in.

That was my point Kalm. You really think a 12 year old is going to up their game to get a second chance?

Some people don't figure it out or mature until they're 50. It happens all the time.

[89Hen]

That was my point Kalm. You really think a 12 year old is going to up their game to get a second chance?

Some people don't figure it out or mature until they're 50. It happens all the time.

At 30 it's your own damn fault. At 12... I just find it a funny stance for a liberal like yourself.

[kalm]

Some people don't figure it out or mature until they're 50. It happens all the time.

At 30 it's your own damn fault. At 12... I just find it a funny stance for a liberal like yourself.

Well the plan is still in development.

[Baldy]

BTW about y Finland (or the rest of Scandinavia) being progressives' utopia - not closely related but interesting nonetheless: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... left-white" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is Scandinavia truly progressive???

[89Hen]

Please continue with your everyone deserves a ribbon ways.

BTW, why does it seem both sides of the isle accuse the other side of the above? I can tell you with absolute certainty that around here it is the Libs that push the everyone deserves a ribbon agenda. The conservatives run the CYO (Crush Your Opponents) and the high level lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, etc... The paste eating kids are the ones who can't keep up athletically and their hippy parents are the ones advocating for not even keeping score.

[CAA Flagship]

Please continue with your everyone deserves a ribbon ways.

BTW, why does it seem both sides of the isle accuse the other side of the above? I can tell you with absolute certainty that around here it is the Libs that push the everyone deserves a ribbon agenda. The conservatives run the CYO (Crush Your Opponents) and the high level lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, etc... The paste eating kids are the ones who can't keep up athletically and their hippy parents are the ones advocating for not even keeping score.

[Grizalltheway]

Please continue with your everyone deserves a ribbon ways.

BTW, why does it seem both sides of the isle accuse the other side of the above? I can tell you with absolute certainty that around here it is the Libs that push the everyone deserves a ribbon agenda. The conservatives run the CYO (Crush Your Opponents) and the high level lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, etc... The paste eating kids are the ones who can't keep up athletically and their hippy parents are the ones advocating for not even keeping score.

Conservatives pushing soccer? This is how I know you're lying.

[89Hen]

BTW, why does it seem both sides of the isle accuse the other side of the above? I can tell you with absolute certainty that around here it is the Libs that push the everyone deserves a ribbon agenda. The conservatives run the CYO (Crush Your Opponents) and the high level lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, etc... The paste eating kids are the ones who can't keep up athletically and their hippy parents are the ones advocating for not even keeping score.

Conservatives pushing soccer? This is how I know you're lying.

You're thinking of the mob ball soccer leagues for kids that can't play any other sport.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politic ... 83079.html

Sometimes a partisan-netted goal is hard to come by on Capitol Hill, when often there’s no clear winner. But congressional members met under the lights of RFK Stadium on Tuesday night to tally goals at the third annual Capital Soccer Classic congressional match.

Republicans championed 8-4 in a heartbreaking loss for the Democrats' squad.

[CAA Flagship]

Conservatives pushing soccer? This is how I know you're lying.

You're thinking of the mob ball soccer leagues for kids that can't play any other sport.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politic ... 83079.html

Sometimes a partisan-netted goal is hard to come by on Capitol Hill, when often there’s no clear winner. But congressional members met under the lights of RFK Stadium on Tuesday night to tally goals at the third annual Capital Soccer Classic congressional match.

Republicans championed 8-4 in a heartbreaking loss for the Democrats' squad.

Nice defense, Donks.