Troops identification... WWII

[CID1990]

Adolf Galland was wrong in his assessment- there were no 300 aircraft ever assembled that could have stopped the bombing campaign of Germany.

The Me 262 also was VERY vulnerable around its airbases. This was a result of its primitive jet engines which were slow to spool up. It was extremely vulnerable to Allied fighters at every point inside its takeoff and landing profile.

Well, maybe the daytime bombing. In Aug-Oct 43' the 8th AF suffered such heavy, unsustainable losses that they suspended daytime raids over Germany for 5 months until they had sufficient #s of P-51s available for long range escort. In 44' the # of bombers available greatly increased while the losses went down. From what I read at the time of D-Day there were about 13k allied aircraft available in England. If there were 300 ME-262s available to the Germans in 1944 inside Germany they could have caused the allies exponentially higher losses to daytime allied bombing raids inside Germany. How high a losses could the allies have sustained before being forced to suspend daytime bombings? Several hundred fighters & bombers a week? 500? Certainly not 1,000.

The Me 262 was revolutionary to be sure, but its only characteristic that was superior to the P-51 was its speed- but the top speed was deceiving. It took a LONG time to get to that speed, and in fact the preferred tactic for attacking bomber formation was from above- it could not climb to attack because it was too sluggish in a climb and therefore vulnerable.

In 1944 if the Germans had had 300 if them with trained pilots they certainly would have inflicted more casualties- but Allied tactics had already changed to neutralize that advantage. As I said before, the Me 262 was a sitting duck in the pattern- it's engines were inefficient and took forever to spool up- so if they came under attack during takeoff or landing (which was a common US tactic) they died.

Secondly, they were unreliable. You had a 40% chance of blowing the engines in a cold start- on a scramble they always left a quarter of their ships in the runway.

If it had been available in 1943 then it would have made a bigger splash, and they could have had the operational kinks worked out by 1944. But as it was, the Allies had total air superiority and as the Me 262 was not a dog fighter it could not have changed that fact. The Germans would have been better served if they had 300 FW-190 Ds with fully trained aircrew.

[Ibanez]

Probably the biggest problem the Nazis had was that they didn't make a few great weapons for mass production. They were always trying to make bigger and better guns, tanks, planes, artillery....this was such a drag on resources and production. Make something that works, like the Mustang and make millions of them. Hitlers quest for the über weapon was just one of the many reasons they were screwed.

If you want a good read, read up on the Soviet war industry during this time. Their tank factories were incredible.

Yep. The Russians were fitting tanks with crews at the factory and having them drive to the front to fight when they were under siege. Now that's just in time logistics!

They also were breaking down factories, relocating them, setting them back up in record time.

[BDKJMU]

It was 100mph faster than a 51.

Hitler fvcked up and wanted it to be a fighter/bomber. As a pure fighter it had 100+ kills against bomber formations and didn't see its first combat until the second half of 1944.

Probably the biggest problem the Nazis had was that they didn't make a few great weapons for mass production. They were always trying to make bigger and better guns, tanks, planes, artillery....this was such a drag on resources and production. Make something that works, like the Mustang and make millions of them. Hitlers quest for the über weapon was just one of the many reasons they were screwed.

If you want a good read, read up on the Soviet war industry during this time. Their tank factories were incredible.

True on too many models and the quest for super weapons by Hitler being a big problem for the Germans. Just another example of the biggest problem the Germans had was their greatest enemy- Hitler himself. There were numerous (at least 5 that I can think of) instances in 1940-1941 where if Hitler had listened to his generals the Germans might very well have won the war (or at least not been defeated). And at least a half dozen 1942-1945 where if Hitler had listened to his generals that the war could have been lengthened by weeks or months.

Yeah, the Soviets had some impressive economic output from the factories they moved to the Urals in late 41'/early 42'. The Soviets also benefited greatly from lend lease. We built most of their trucks, so they were able to concentrate on tanks and artillery..

"......In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[25] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[26] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[27] and 1.75 million tons of food.[28]

Roughly 17.5 million tons of military equipment, vehicles, industrial supplies, and food were shipped from the Western Hemisphere to the USSR, 94% coming from the US. For comparison, a total of 22 million tons landed in Europe to supply American forces from January 1942 to May 1945. It has been estimated that American deliveries to the USSR through the Persian Corridor alone were sufficient, by US Army standards, to maintain sixty combat divisions in the line.[29][30]

The United States gave to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil), 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars....."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW that 11 billion in 1947 dollars = about 1.16 trillion today.

[Ibanez]

Probably the biggest problem the Nazis had was that they didn't make a few great weapons for mass production. They were always trying to make bigger and better guns, tanks, planes, artillery....this was such a drag on resources and production. Make something that works, like the Mustang and make millions of them. Hitlers quest for the über weapon was just one of the many reasons they were screwed.

If you want a good read, read up on the Soviet war industry during this time. Their tank factories were incredible.

True on too many models and the quest for super weapons by Hitler being a big problem for the Germans. Just another example of the biggest problem the Germans had was their greatest enemy- Hitler himself. There were numerous (at least 5 that I can think of) instances in 1940-1941 where if Hitler had listened to his generals the Germans might very well have won the war (or at least not been defeated). And at least a half dozen 1942-1945 where if Hitler had listened to his generals that the war could have been lengthened by weeks or months.

Yeah, the Soviets had some impressive economic output from the factories they moved to the Urals in late 41'/early 42'. The Soviets also benefited greatly from lend lease. We built most of their trucks, so they were able to concentrate on tanks and artillery..

"......In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[25] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[26] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[27] and 1.75 million tons of food.[28]

Roughly 17.5 million tons of military equipment, vehicles, industrial supplies, and food were shipped from the Western Hemisphere to the USSR, 94% coming from the US. For comparison, a total of 22 million tons landed in Europe to supply American forces from January 1942 to May 1945. It has been estimated that American deliveries to the USSR through the Persian Corridor alone were sufficient, by US Army standards, to maintain sixty combat divisions in the line.[29][30]

The United States gave to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil), 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars....."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW that 11 billion in 1947 dollars = about 1.16 trillion today.

Yeah, I know. The Germans (Nazi's) just couldn't focus. The search for an uber weapon was such a bad call. Don't produce small quantities of inferior weapons. It's common sense.

Oh, and don't over engineer your vehicles. Panzers would break down and be left for dead. The troops couldn't fix them. However, a Sherman would break down and they could be fixed quickly. USA! USA! USA! But I love the tank battles: The Nazis may have had a superior tank, but America (USSR) would just flood the field with more tanks.

[BDKJMU]

True on too many models and the quest for super weapons by Hitler being a big problem for the Germans. Just another example of the biggest problem the Germans had was their greatest enemy- Hitler himself. There were numerous (at least 5 that I can think of) instances in 1940-1941 where if Hitler had listened to his generals the Germans might very well have won the war (or at least not been defeated). And at least a half dozen 1942-1945 where if Hitler had listened to his generals that the war could have been lengthened by weeks or months.

Yeah, the Soviets had some impressive economic output from the factories they moved to the Urals in late 41'/early 42'. The Soviets also benefited greatly from lend lease. We built most of their trucks, so they were able to concentrate on tanks and artillery..

"......In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[25] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans);[26] 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras)[27] and 1.75 million tons of food.[28]

Roughly 17.5 million tons of military equipment, vehicles, industrial supplies, and food were shipped from the Western Hemisphere to the USSR, 94% coming from the US. For comparison, a total of 22 million tons landed in Europe to supply American forces from January 1942 to May 1945. It has been estimated that American deliveries to the USSR through the Persian Corridor alone were sufficient, by US Army standards, to maintain sixty combat divisions in the line.[29][30]

The United States gave to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil), 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars....."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW that 11 billion in 1947 dollars = about 1.16 trillion today.

Yeah, I know. The Germans (Nazi's) just couldn't focus. The search for an uber weapon was such a bad call. Don't produce small quantities of inferior weapons. It's common sense.

Oh, and don't over engineer your vehicles. Panzers would break down and be left for dead. The troops couldn't fix them. However, a Sherman would break down and they could be fixed quickly. USA! USA! USA! But I love the tank battles: The Nazis may have had a superior tank, but America (USSR) would just flood the field with more tanks.

Depends on which Panzers you are referring to. German tank production:
-Mark III: the 3rd most produced German tank of the war, produced from 39'-43'.
-Mark IV: the most produced German panzer of the war, the only one produced for the entire war, and about 1/2 the tanks encountered by the allies in Western Europe, mechanically reliable.
-Panther (2nd most produced), plagued by mechanical issues.
-Tiger (4th most produced) somewhat mechanically unreliable.

Sure the Tiger, which 1st saw combat in Sept 42', was a superior tank. But it's production methods were labor intensive with expensive materials. It sucked gas, had higher than normal reliability/breakdowns (not as bad as the Panther), and was expensive to maintain.

The Panther, which 1st saw combat at Kursk in 43', was less than half the cost to produce than the Tiger, not much more than the Mark IV, but had major teething problems which were never completely fixed (mainly tranny). Best tank of the war when it was working, which it often wasn't.

The Russians and us mostly stuck with one main medium tank during the war, easy to mass produce, lower maintenance, but far inferior to the Tiger and Panther: The T-34 (64k+ produced during the war, 80+% lost) and the Sherman (49k+ produced during the war). The Germans produced around 8,500 Mark IVs, about 6,000 Panthers and about 2,000 Tiger I & II. I wonder how many more tanks the Krouts would have produced if they had not done the Tiger & Panther and had done similar as the Russians and us, just mainly stuck with one mass produced medium tank during the war, in their case the Mark IV? Certainly well over 20,000 (In addition to about 8,000 Panzer Mark II, 38, & Mark III from 1939-1943). Sure wouldn't have had their superior Tigers & Panthers, but would have had greater #s of tanks & an even far greater # available due to lower maintenance costs/less breakdowns with the more reliable Mark IV. Comparing the Mark IV, Sherman (both had numerous variants), and T-34, looking at the 3 most commonly produced ones, the Mark IV Ausf H, T34-76 and the M4 Sherman, the Mark IV was at least comparable, if not superior to the other 2.

[JohnStOnge]

The Me 262 was also vulnerable in a dogfight. It could not turn inside a P-51 or P-38 in level flight at high altitude.

Yeah but so what if it could go about 120 mph faster than a P-51. So if it can't turn all it has to do is pull quickly away from its opponent. I would think they just needed to recognize where their advantages and disadvantages were. If you can't turn inside an opponent but are a lot faster use tactics taking that into account.

[YoUDeeMan]

"The Americans weren't really that concerned about a relatively few German heavy tanks. They were busy producing 200,000 aircraft, 16 Naval fleet 60,000 ton aircraft carriers and 65 escort carriers, enough supplies to fully mechanize, feed and equip 1000 divisions....equal to more than the combined Armies of the world. And they sort of dabbled in developing nuclear weapons too. I don't think some German heavy tanks mattered in the least to the united states."

- some guy off a WWII site.




Yup...we didn't exactly do a good job of anticipating the German Tiger or Panther tanks, but we got the job done when and where it counted.

[GannonFan]

"The Americans weren't really that concerned about a relatively few German heavy tanks. They were busy producing 200,000 aircraft, 16 Naval fleet 60,000 ton aircraft carriers and 65 escort carriers, enough supplies to fully mechanize, feed and equip 1000 divisions....equal to more than the combined Armies of the world. And they sort of dabbled in developing nuclear weapons too. I don't think some German heavy tanks mattered in the least to the united states."

- some guy off a WWII site.




Yup...we didn't exactly do a good job of anticipating the German Tiger or Panther tanks, but we got the job done when and where it counted.

USA ftw!

[Ibanez]

"The Americans weren't really that concerned about a relatively few German heavy tanks. They were busy producing 200,000 aircraft, 16 Naval fleet 60,000 ton aircraft carriers and 65 escort carriers, enough supplies to fully mechanize, feed and equip 1000 divisions....equal to more than the combined Armies of the world. And they sort of dabbled in developing nuclear weapons too. I don't think some German heavy tanks mattered in the least to the united states."

- some guy off a WWII site.




Yup...we didn't exactly do a good job of anticipating the German Tiger or Panther tanks, but we got the job done when and where it counted.

We're not good at anticipating needs, but we make up for it.

[BDKJMU]

"The Americans weren't really that concerned about a relatively few German heavy tanks. They were busy producing 200,000 aircraft, 16 Naval fleet 60,000 ton aircraft carriers and 65 escort carriers, enough supplies to fully mechanize, feed and equip 1000 divisions....equal to more than the combined Armies of the world. And they sort of dabbled in developing nuclear weapons too. I don't think some German heavy tanks mattered in the least to the united states."

- some guy off a WWII site.




Yup...we didn't exactly do a good job of anticipating the German Tiger or Panther tanks, but we got the job done when and where it counted.

We produced an absolute mind boggling amount of stuff for a country of only about 132 million (1940), as we produced a lot of the stuff for the Russians, Brits & others. Enough for several hundred full US size divisions, but 1,000 is a big exaggeration. Maybe he meant 100. Were about 100 US divisions during the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... rld_War_II" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, we got the job done thanks to by the 2nd half of 44' air supremacy, overwhelming numbers & supplies, and German supply issues. The US delayed production of the M-26 Pershing Heavy tank, which was far superior to the Sherman, and on par with the German Tiger and Panther. So a lot of guys were needlessly killed and maimed because we had our underarmored, under gunned, high profile "Tommy Cooker" Sherman deathtraps, prone to explode & burn in an instant when hit by German AT weapons, leaving little to no chance of crew survival. The 1st Pershings didn't arrive into Europe until the beginning of 45'. Only about 300 Pershings were in theater by the end of the war, and only about 20 saw combat. Too late.

General Lesley McNair, one of US 4 Lt (3 star) Generals to be killed during the war when he was killed in Normandy by errant US carpet bombing. He was the commanding general, Army Ground Forces, responsible for the organization, training & prep of the U.S. Army for overseas service. He was a proponent of towed versus self propelled tank destroyers (which wasn't as effective as self propelled). And he was against a heavy tank for Europe. Patton has also been blamed by some.

"....As a result of his belief in the tank destroyer doctrine, McNair was instrumental in obstructing the production of the M26 Pershing. McNair saw no need for a heavy tank and believed that tank versus tank duels were "unsound and unnecessary". McNair would agree only to the production of the 76mm M4 Sherman which he believed were capable of handling the Tiger I tank that had appeared in late 1942. Gen. Jacob Devers, the main proponent for the M26, had to go over McNair's head to Gen. Marshall to begin production of the M26....."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesley_J._McNair" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"....Delayed production
The M26 was introduced late into World War II and saw only a limited amount of combat. Controversy continues to exist as to why the production of the M26 was so delayed.

In his 1998 book Death Traps, Belton Cooper, who was a lieutenant in the 3rd Armored Division during World War II, working as a liaison officer for the division's armor repair units, wrote that General George S. Patton was primarily responsible for delaying the development and production of the M26.[19] Cooper's statement and his other criticisms of the M4 Sherman have since been widely repeated by readers of his book, and have been cited as references.[citation needed] In 2000, the author appeared in the History Channel TV show "Suicide Missions: Tank Crews of World War II" to expound on his views.[20]

Tank historians, such as Richard P. Hunnicutt, George Forty and Steven Zaloga, have generally agreed that the main cause of the delay in production of the M26 was opposition to the tank from the Army Ground Forces, headed by General Lesley McNair.[21][22] Zaloga in particular has identified several specific factors that led both to the delay of the M26 program and limited improvements in the firepower of the M4:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M26_Pershing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[YoUDeeMan]

In addition to supplying and feeding our 100 divisions, we were also supplying and feeding the Brits, the Russians, the French, the Chinese, and everyone else in the world...all while prepping to supply even more men and equipment if needed.

[BDKJMU]

Pershings didn't enter combat till late Feb 45', and only about 20 saw action.
-3 were knocked out- 1 by a Tiger, 1 by a German 88, and 1 by a 150mm field gun.
They knocked out up to 6 German Tanks/tank destroyers, including 2 Tigers and a Panther.

Famous video of March 6 duel between a Pershing of the 3rd AD and a Panther in central Cologne after the Panther knocked out a Sherman with 1 shot, killing 3 of the 5 crew members. Pershing then knocked out the Panther, killing 1 of 5 crew members (the other 4 ran off). and destroying the tank. 3 hits. 1st hit caused them to abandon the tank. 2nd killed the gunner as he was climbing out. 3rd was for good measure. Only time a Pershing was captured on video during the war in tank on tank action.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBI9d0-IfEM[/youtube]