The Vaccine Thing

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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by kalm »

SunCoastBlueHen wrote:
93henfan wrote:Also, the stereotyping in the thread of liberal, upper middle class, organic food shopper...

I'm none of those. I do believe that big pharma and the food industry would feed their shit to their own mothers if it drove profits though. They don't give a flying fuck about health, unless it means mo money.
I agree with this 100%. Unfortunately, big money and the power that comes with it can muddy the waters as it comes to identifying the truth. Do vaccines increase the chances of autism? I don't know, but I also don't put total credence into a "scientific study" unless I know exactly how it was funded. Call me cynical if you want.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by 93henfan »

Ibanez wrote:
93henfan wrote:
But you just said the science is too complex to draw any conclusions awhile ago?

Is it only conclusive when it's convenient to support your side?
When did I ever say that? I get that you want answers. But, holy hell, the Autism Society of America, on thier page of causes, never once mentions vaccines.

http://www.autism-society.org/what-is/causes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is no known single cause for autism spectrum disorder, but it is generally accepted that it is caused by abnormalities in brain structure or function. Brain scans show differences in the shape and structure of the brain in children with autism compared to in neurotypical children. Researchers do not know the exact cause of autism but are investigating a number of theories, including the links among heredity, genetics and medical problems.

In many families, there appears to be a pattern of autism or related disabilities, further supporting the theory that the disorder has a genetic basis. While no one gene has been identified as causing autism, researchers are searching for irregular segments of genetic code that children with autism may have inherited. It also appears that some children are born with a susceptibility to autism, but researchers have not yet identified a single “trigger” that causes autism to develop.

Other researchers are investigating the possibility that under certain conditions, a cluster of unstable genes may interfere with brain development, resulting in autism. Still other researchers are investigating problems during pregnancy or delivery as well as environmental factors such as viral infections, metabolic imbalances and exposure to chemicals.
It appears that vaccines could be a trigger, but that doesn't make them the cause. :twocents:
Genetics you say? Going back four generations in my son's family tree = no autism.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by YoUDeeMan »

93henfan wrote: behavioral therapy...
That reminds me of this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulJseEEffJI[/youtube]

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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Ibanez »

93henfan wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
When did I ever say that? I get that you want answers. But, holy hell, the Autism Society of America, on thier page of causes, never once mentions vaccines.

http://www.autism-society.org/what-is/causes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



It appears that vaccines could be a trigger, but that doesn't make them the cause. :twocents:
Genetics you say? Going back four generations in my son's family tree = no autism.
Not me, the Autism Society of America. And 4 generations is nothing. My nephew has red hair. We go back 3 generations and there's nobody w/ red hair.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by bandl »

Ibanez wrote:
93henfan wrote:
Genetics you say? Going back four generations in my son's family tree = no autism.
Not me, the Autism Society of America. And 4 generations is nothing. My nephew has red hair. We go back 3 generations and there's nobody w/ red hair.
Then somebody was fucking a ginger outside the family.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Pwns »

93henfan wrote:I'm glad that you two PhD's have it all figured out. :lol:

So man is not causing global temperatures to rise and there's no chance that heavy doses of vaccines given to my son (or with his brother who had his vaccines minimized and delayed and sequenced over several years and doesn't have autism) have anything to do with autism.

Thanks for clearing it all up doctors.
The clinical studies looking at vaccines and autism have more validity than climate science because the clinical studies use large cohorts of people while climate science uses a single planet and voodoo sampling methods and extrapolations.

Also, correlation isn't sufficient for causation but it's necessary. If you see there is no correlation between two things you can more easily say there is no causation than you can say there is causation if you only have correlation. The most recent studies show no correlation with vaccines and autism.

Personally, I don't worry about "big pharma" myself. We have such an extremely rigorous and expensive process for making sure medical products are safe so much so that there's a huge wait list of drugs ready to be tested on people and there's nothing "big pharma" can really do to fast-track them to the market. If anything the procedures and regulations need to relaxed some.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

Pwns wrote:I also love how the typical vaccine refusers are being portrayed as fundamentalist types.


Most of them are whole foods-shopping, homeopathic medicine using, organic food-eating, big-pharma-is-poisoning-us dunderheads. :nod: Not all of them are liberal, but many are and they are not fundamentalists.

BTW, Mississippi of all states has the lowest rate of vaccine refusals. Bet you didn't think they could be first in anything good. :nod:

It is actually both types, at least in Arizona
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

andy7171 wrote:My militant vegan brother and his wife used to be anti-Vaxxers. The county school system told them to pound sand with their "religious exceptions" story, my poor nephew had to get a shit ton of shots one day before his first day of kindergarten. :ohno:

Is it wrong to question the influx of central american minors for this outbreak? The early morning news was talking about that this morning on my way in.

Yes it is wrong to question that - that is typical xenophobic, conk asshattery that has no basis in reality - most of those countries have mandatory, done at school with no option to refuse vaccinations. With rates higher than most of the US
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

Ibanez wrote:
93henfan wrote:I'm glad that you two PhD's have it all figured out. :lol:

So man is not causing global temperatures to rise and there's no chance that heavy doses of vaccines given to my son (or with his brother who had his vaccines minimized and delayed and sequenced over several years and doesn't have autism) have anything to do with autism.

Thanks for clearing it all up doctors.
Man is definitely contributing to global warming and vaccines aren't 100% safe. But there's research that doesn't support the vaccine link.

Nothing is 100% safe. IS society better with mandatory vaccinations - you bet.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

bandl wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
Not me, the Autism Society of America. And 4 generations is nothing. My nephew has red hair. We go back 3 generations and there's nobody w/ red hair.
Then somebody was fucking a ginger outside the family.
Dear gawd, this kind of shit isn't hard to figure out.


Hmmm - 93 - better do a paternity test
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

93henfan wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
When did I ever say that? I get that you want answers. But, holy hell, the Autism Society of America, on thier page of causes, never once mentions vaccines.

http://www.autism-society.org/what-is/causes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



It appears that vaccines could be a trigger, but that doesn't make them the cause. :twocents:
Genetics you say? Going back four generations in my son's family tree = no autism.

Well, since autism is a recent diagnosis (less than 4 generations) it is possible it was never diagnosed :coffee:

also, many genetic diseases only manifest when the right combinations of genes are present - if both you and your wife were carriers, combining the genes could result in the condition.


Still much science to be learned in this regard
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

Pwns wrote:
93henfan wrote:I'm glad that you two PhD's have it all figured out. :lol:

So man is not causing global temperatures to rise and there's no chance that heavy doses of vaccines given to my son (or with his brother who had his vaccines minimized and delayed and sequenced over several years and doesn't have autism) have anything to do with autism.

Thanks for clearing it all up doctors.
The clinical studies looking at vaccines and autism have more validity than climate science because the clinical studies use large cohorts of people while climate science uses a single planet and voodoo sampling methods and extrapolations.
That is totally incorrect. The Wakefield Study only looked at 12 kids.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

To JSO's original post - the SCOTUS ruled in 1905 on this very matter, on whether Massachusetts could require smallpox vaccines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Court's decision articulated the view that the freedom of the individual must sometimes be subordinated to the common welfare and is subject to the police power of the state.

[quote=The Supreme Court of the United States]The authority of the state to enact this statute is to be referred to what is commonly called the police power,-a power which the state did not surrender when becoming a member of the Union under the Constitution. [...] According to settled principles, the police power of a state must be held to embrace, at least, such reasonable regulations established directly by legislative enactment as will protect the public health and the public safety. Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 203, 6 L. ed. 23, 71 [...] We come, then, to inquire whether any right given or secured by the Constitution is invaded by the statute as interpreted by the state court. The defendant insists that his liberty is invaded when the state subjects him to fine or imprisonment for neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination; that a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary, and oppressive, and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such way as to him seems best; and that the execution of such a law against one who objects to vaccination, no matter for what reason, is nothing short of an assault upon his person. But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good. On any other basis organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others. This court has more than once recognized it as a fundamental principle that 'persons and property are subjected to all kinds of restraints and burdens in order to secure the general comfort, health, and prosperity of the state; of the perfect right of the legislature to do which no question ever was, or upon acknowledged general principles ever can be, made, so far as natural persons are concerned.' Hannibal & St. J. R. Co. v. Husen, 95 U.S. 465, 471 , 24 S. L. ed. 527, 530 [...]


[... T]he answer is that it was the duty of the constituted authorities primarily to keep in view the welfare [...] and safety of the many, and not permit the interests of the many to be subordinated to the wishes or convenience of the few. [...]

Looking at the propositions embodied in the defendant's rejected offers of proof, it is clear that they are more formidable by their number than by their inherent value. Those offers in the main seem to have had no purpose except to state the general theory of those of the medical profession who attach little or no value to vaccination as a means of preventing the spread of smallpox, or who think that vaccination causes other diseases of the body. What everybody knows the court must know, and therefore the state court judicially knew, as this court knows, that an opposite theory accords with the common belief, and is maintained by high medical authority.

[...] It must be conceded that some laymen, both learned and unlearned, and some physicians of great skill and repute, do not believe that vaccination is a preventive of smallpox. The common belief, however, is that it has a decided tendency to prevent the spread of this fearful disease, and to render it less dangerous to those who contract it. While not accepted by all, it is accepted by the mass of the people, as well as by most members of the medical profession. [...]

Since, then, vaccination, as a means of protecting a community against smallpox, finds strong support in the experience of this and other countries, no court, much less a jury, is justified in disregarding the action of the legislature simply because in its or their opinion that particular method was-perhaps, or possibly-not the best either for children or adults. [...]

The defendant offered to prove that vaccination 'quite often' caused serious and permanent injury to the health of the person vaccinated; that the operation 'occasionally' resulted in death; that it was 'impossible' to tell 'in any particular case' what the results of vaccination would be, or whether it would injure the health or result in death; that 'quite often' one's blood is in a certain condition of impurity when it is not prudent or safe to vaccinate him; that there is no practical test by which to determine 'with any degree of certainty' whether one's blood is in such condition of impurity as to render vaccination necessarily unsafe or dangerous; that vaccine matter is 'quite often' impure and dangerous to be used, but whether impure or not cannot be ascertained by any known practical test; that the defendant refused to submit to vaccination for the reason that he had, 'when a child,' been caused great and extreme suffering for a long period by a disease produced by vaccination; and that he had witnessed a similar result of vaccination, not only in the case of his son, but in the cases of others. [...]

These offers, in effect, invited the court and jury to go over the whole ground gone over by the legislature when it enacted the statute in question. [...] It seems to the court that an affirmative answer to these questions would practically strip the legislative department of its function to care for the public health and the public safety when endangered by epidemics of disease. Such an answer would mean that compulsory vaccination could not, in any conceivable case, be legally enforced in a community, even at the command of the legislature, however widespread the epidemic of smallpox, and however deep and universal was the belief of the community and of its medical advisers that a system of general vaccination was vital to the safety of all.

We are not prepared to hold that a minority, residing or remaining in any city or town where smallpox is prevalent, and enjoying the general protection afforded by an organized local government, may thus defy the will of its constituted authorities, acting in good faith for all, under the legislative sanction of the state. If such be the privilege of a minority, then a like privilege would belong to each individual of the community, and the spectacle would be presented of the welfare and safety of an entire population being subordinated to the notions of a single individual who chooses to remain a part of that population. We are unwilling to hold it to be an element in the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States that one person, or a minority of persons, residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have the power thus to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the state.[/quote]
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Chizzang »

Pwns wrote:I also love how the typical vaccine refusers are being portrayed as fundamentalist types.


Most of them are whole foods-shopping, homeopathic medicine using, organic food-eating, big-pharma-is-poisoning-us dunderheads. :nod: Not all of them are liberal, but many are and they are not fundamentalists.
Actually that ^ is precisely the intersecting point of the Neo-Hippie and the 7th day Bible thumper
Who knew it would take a pseudo science fly-by-night vaccine scare and Measles to unite the two


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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Vidav »

93henfan wrote:I'm glad that you two PhD's have it all figured out. :lol:

So man is not causing global temperatures to rise and there's no chance that heavy doses of vaccines given to my son (or with his brother who had his vaccines minimized and delayed and sequenced over several years and doesn't have autism) have anything to do with autism.

Thanks for clearing it all up doctors.
Correlation does not equal causation, 93. I understand you want answers but this isn't it. I'm not a doctor but this guy is and he cites the studies. This also isn't a Spanos style video, don't worry. :thumb:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o65l1YAVaYc[/youtube]
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Grizalltheway »

dbackjon wrote:To JSO's original post - the SCOTUS ruled in 1905 on this very matter, on whether Massachusetts could require smallpox vaccines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Court's decision articulated the view that the freedom of the individual must sometimes be subordinated to the common welfare and is subject to the police power of the state.
The Supreme Court of the United States wrote:The authority of the state to enact this statute is to be referred to what is commonly called the police power,-a power which the state did not surrender when becoming a member of the Union under the Constitution. [...] According to settled principles, the police power of a state must be held to embrace, at least, such reasonable regulations established directly by legislative enactment as will protect the public health and the public safety. Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 203, 6 L. ed. 23, 71 [...] We come, then, to inquire whether any right given or secured by the Constitution is invaded by the statute as interpreted by the state court. The defendant insists that his liberty is invaded when the state subjects him to fine or imprisonment for neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination; that a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary, and oppressive, and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for his own body and health in such way as to him seems best; and that the execution of such a law against one who objects to vaccination, no matter for what reason, is nothing short of an assault upon his person. But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good. On any other basis organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others. This court has more than once recognized it as a fundamental principle that 'persons and property are subjected to all kinds of restraints and burdens in order to secure the general comfort, health, and prosperity of the state; of the perfect right of the legislature to do which no question ever was, or upon acknowledged general principles ever can be, made, so far as natural persons are concerned.' Hannibal & St. J. R. Co. v. Husen, 95 U.S. 465, 471 , 24 S. L. ed. 527, 530 [...]


[... T]he answer is that it was the duty of the constituted authorities primarily to keep in view the welfare [...] and safety of the many, and not permit the interests of the many to be subordinated to the wishes or convenience of the few. [...]

Looking at the propositions embodied in the defendant's rejected offers of proof, it is clear that they are more formidable by their number than by their inherent value. Those offers in the main seem to have had no purpose except to state the general theory of those of the medical profession who attach little or no value to vaccination as a means of preventing the spread of smallpox, or who think that vaccination causes other diseases of the body. What everybody knows the court must know, and therefore the state court judicially knew, as this court knows, that an opposite theory accords with the common belief, and is maintained by high medical authority.

[...] It must be conceded that some laymen, both learned and unlearned, and some physicians of great skill and repute, do not believe that vaccination is a preventive of smallpox. The common belief, however, is that it has a decided tendency to prevent the spread of this fearful disease, and to render it less dangerous to those who contract it. While not accepted by all, it is accepted by the mass of the people, as well as by most members of the medical profession. [...]

Since, then, vaccination, as a means of protecting a community against smallpox, finds strong support in the experience of this and other countries, no court, much less a jury, is justified in disregarding the action of the legislature simply because in its or their opinion that particular method was-perhaps, or possibly-not the best either for children or adults. [...]

The defendant offered to prove that vaccination 'quite often' caused serious and permanent injury to the health of the person vaccinated; that the operation 'occasionally' resulted in death; that it was 'impossible' to tell 'in any particular case' what the results of vaccination would be, or whether it would injure the health or result in death; that 'quite often' one's blood is in a certain condition of impurity when it is not prudent or safe to vaccinate him; that there is no practical test by which to determine 'with any degree of certainty' whether one's blood is in such condition of impurity as to render vaccination necessarily unsafe or dangerous; that vaccine matter is 'quite often' impure and dangerous to be used, but whether impure or not cannot be ascertained by any known practical test; that the defendant refused to submit to vaccination for the reason that he had, 'when a child,' been caused great and extreme suffering for a long period by a disease produced by vaccination; and that he had witnessed a similar result of vaccination, not only in the case of his son, but in the cases of others. [...]

These offers, in effect, invited the court and jury to go over the whole ground gone over by the legislature when it enacted the statute in question. [...] It seems to the court that an affirmative answer to these questions would practically strip the legislative department of its function to care for the public health and the public safety when endangered by epidemics of disease. Such an answer would mean that compulsory vaccination could not, in any conceivable case, be legally enforced in a community, even at the command of the legislature, however widespread the epidemic of smallpox, and however deep and universal was the belief of the community and of its medical advisers that a system of general vaccination was vital to the safety of all.

We are not prepared to hold that a minority, residing or remaining in any city or town where smallpox is prevalent, and enjoying the general protection afforded by an organized local government, may thus defy the will of its constituted authorities, acting in good faith for all, under the legislative sanction of the state. If such be the privilege of a minority, then a like privilege would belong to each individual of the community, and the spectacle would be presented of the welfare and safety of an entire population being subordinated to the notions of a single individual who chooses to remain a part of that population. We are unwilling to hold it to be an element in the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States that one person, or a minority of persons, residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have the power thus to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the state.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Chizzang »

The only "thing" that has grown at similar rates simultaneously to autism rates is wireless traffic...
Tiny micro waves passing through our bodies

The 2.4 GHz to 5 GHz microwave traffic is up 800%

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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Grizalltheway »

Chizzang wrote:The only "thing" that has grown at similar rates simultaneously to autism rates is wireless traffic...
Tiny micro waves passing through our bodies

The 2.4 GHz to 5 GHz microwave traffic is up 800%

News at 11:00
Could it also be that we've gotten better at diagnosing autism? :?:
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by Ursus A. Horribilis »

Grizalltheway wrote:
Chizzang wrote:The only "thing" that has grown at similar rates simultaneously to autism rates is wireless traffic...
Tiny micro waves passing through our bodies

The 2.4 GHz to 5 GHz microwave traffic is up 800%

News at 11:00
Could it also be that we've gotten better at diagnosing autism? :?:
This is the most likely case if you ask me. The fact that it is diagnosed at all when it never used to be is also something worth considering as dback mentioned.

Hell even when I was a little kid there were kids that were off in varying ways and had a room where they went and got to do what they did while the rest were in class. Their diagnosis from the rest of us was simple "He's fucked up" and everyone moved on. Now you actually know that the diagnosis "fucked up" covers many, many different things that can be worked on a lot better than corralling kids into a small room for nappy time for them.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by bluehenbillk »

Where are these non-vaccine crowd having their kids educated? Home school? I think all 50 states require kids to be vaccinated to attend school...

It's funny we didn't hear about this a few months ago when Ebola paranoia was being stoked...
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

bluehenbillk wrote:Where are these non-vaccine crowd having their kids educated? Home school? I think all 50 states require kids to be vaccinated to attend school...

It's funny we didn't hear about this a few months ago when Ebola paranoia was being stoked...

Not in Arizona or California. Parents can opt out and still send their kids to any school.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by bandl »

bluehenbillk wrote:Where are these non-vaccine crowd having their kids educated? Home school? I think all 50 states require kids to be vaccinated to attend school...
Religious exemptions
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by dbackjon »

bandl wrote:
bluehenbillk wrote:Where are these non-vaccine crowd having their kids educated? Home school? I think all 50 states require kids to be vaccinated to attend school...
Religious exemptions

Out here, no religious reason needed.
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

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93henfan wrote:
CID1990 wrote:I absolutely HEART this whole controversy....

A lot of anti-vaxxers are as Pwns said-- nanny state upper middle class liberals. Seeing them get the shout down pariah treatment on this is so rich I wish I could bottle their tears and garnish my martinis with them

Seriously, I hope I have adequately conveyed the ecstatic pleasure this gives me.


BTW of COURSE I am not an anti-vaxxer. I'm against the liberal use of antibiotics, but I don't see the evidence for autism caused by viral vaccines that some others see.
Maybe that's because you don't have a child with autism?

Of COURSE every study is going to say there's no link. The government and big pharma are funding the studies and they are the power clique that wants to keep selling vaccines (and ADHD meds and antidepressants and behavioral therapy and occupational therapy and....).

Ever notice that there are more pharmacies than gas stations in a lot of towns now?
Im not sure where I said I want YOU to be compelled to vaccinate your children.

I personally dont care if people vaccinate or not, but Ive read the literature and know the science, and it doesnt take a doctor to read and see that the evidence of a link is weak. So I get to choose.

It doesnt mean there ISNT a link, but to me it means Ill give my kids the shots, and then my fully immunized non autistic kids will be playing outside enjoying life while other non autistic kids will be sucking wind with measles.
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
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Re: The Vaccine Thing

Post by GannonFan »

bluehenbillk wrote:Where are these non-vaccine crowd having their kids educated? Home school? I think all 50 states require kids to be vaccinated to attend school...

It's funny we didn't hear about this a few months ago when Ebola paranoia was being stoked...
Heck, the kids sitting next to your kids in PA schools could be unvaccinated:

PA State Code:
§ 23.84. Exemption from immunization.
(a) Medical exemption. Children need not be immunized if a physician or the physician’s designee provides a written statement that immunization may be detrimental to the health of the child. When the physician determines that immunization is no longer detrimental to the health of the child, the child shall be immunized according to this subchapter.

(b) Religious exemption. Children need not be immunized if the parent, guardian or emancipated child objects in writing to the immunization on religious grounds or on the basis of a strong moral or ethical conviction similar to a religious belief.
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