Virginia gun crime drops, as state's firearms sales soar

[93henfan]

Being armed might alter the end-result of a crime (good enough for me in regards to gun rights), but I'm still skeptical that criminals care or even think about the fact that someone might be armed. I work with alternative students and I've seen them attack a cop armed with a baton, taser, and gun. Criminals are opportunistic and I think the majority will attempt the crime regardless - most live in the moment.

Similar to the death penalty which isn't that much of a deterrence either.

The death penalty's greatest aspect is as a cost-saving measure.

[danefan]

Similar to the death penalty which isn't that much of a deterrence either.

The death penalty's greatest aspect is as a cost-saving measure.

Which costs significantly more than life in prison.

[kalm]

The death penalty's greatest aspect is as a cost-saving measure.

Which costs significantly more than life in prison.

Lawyers...

[93henfan]

The death penalty's greatest aspect is as a cost-saving measure.

Which costs significantly more than life in prison.

Please explain how a shot is more expensive than 30+ years of food, medical care, color tv, library, weight room, rehabilitative activities, heat, a/c, electricity, etc.

Mind you, the salaries of the staffs at all appeals courts are going to be paid if this person goes through appeals or not, so that is not a factor.

[Grizalltheway]

Which costs significantly more than life in prison.

Please explain how a shot is more expensive than 30+ years of food, medical care, color tv, library, weight room, rehabilitative activities, heat, a/c, electricity, etc.

Mind you, the salaries of the staffs at all appeals courts are going to be paid if this person goes through appeals or not, so that is not a factor.

Yes, but keep in mind that most people on death row are represented by public defenders.

[93henfan]

Please explain how a shot is more expensive than 30+ years of food, medical care, color tv, library, weight room, rehabilitative activities, heat, a/c, electricity, etc.

Mind you, the salaries of the staffs at all appeals courts are going to be paid if this person goes through appeals or not, so that is not a factor.

Yes, but keep in mind that most people on death row are represented by public defenders.

Salaried government employees.

[CAA Flagship]

Yes, but keep in mind that most people on death row are represented by public defenders.

Salaried government employees.

Welfare recipients.


Sorry D1B for stepping on your toes here. I just didn't want this to slip by.

[danefan]

A quick google search brought this article up, but there are numerous studies which support it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphilli ... h-penalty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citing Richard C. Dieter of the Death Penalty Information Center, Fox reported that studies have “uniformly and conservatively shown that a death-penalty trial costs $1 million more than one in which prosecutors seek life without parole.”

A Urban Institute study (downloads as a pdf) found that “n Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case” while a 2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research that claimed “n Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.”

....

The story is the same in North Carolina. A 2010 Duke University study found that taxpayers in the Tarheel State could save $11 million a year by substituting life in prison for the death penalty.

The numbers are even more dramatic in Garden State. Prior to the abolishing the death penalty in the state, a report by New Jersey Policy Perspectives found that “New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one.”

[AZGrizFan]

A quick google search brought this article up, but there are numerous studies which support it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphilli ... h-penalty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citing Richard C. Dieter of the Death Penalty Information Center, Fox reported that studies have “uniformly and conservatively shown that a death-penalty trial costs $1 million more than one in which prosecutors seek life without parole.”

A Urban Institute study (downloads as a pdf) found that “n Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case” while a 2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research that claimed “n Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.”

....

The story is the same in North Carolina. A 2010 Duke University study found that taxpayers in the Tarheel State could save $11 million a year by substituting life in prison for the death penalty.

The numbers are even more dramatic in Garden State. Prior to the abolishing the death penalty in the state, a report by New Jersey Policy Perspectives found that “New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one.”

Isn't living in New Jersey penalty enough?

[93henfan]

A quick google search brought this article up, but there are numerous studies which support it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphilli ... h-penalty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citing Richard C. Dieter of the Death Penalty Information Center, Fox reported that studies have “uniformly and conservatively shown that a death-penalty trial costs $1 million more than one in which prosecutors seek life without parole.”

A Urban Institute study (downloads as a pdf) found that “n Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case” while a 2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research that claimed “n Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.”

....

The story is the same in North Carolina. A 2010 Duke University study found that taxpayers in the Tarheel State could save $11 million a year by substituting life in prison for the death penalty.

The numbers are even more dramatic in Garden State. Prior to the abolishing the death penalty in the state, a report by New Jersey Policy Perspectives found that “New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one.”

The Death Penalty Information Center, huh? I don't have time to look up what their agenda is, but I can guess!

You can make statistics say anything.

Quoting the costs per capita of the death penalty in Maryland or New Jersey (two states that would rather hire prostitutes for prisoners than actually put one to death) seems suspect as well.

[danefan]

A quick google search brought this article up, but there are numerous studies which support it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphilli ... h-penalty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Death Penalty Information Center, huh? I don't have time to look up what their agenda is, but I can guess!

You can make statistics say anything.

Quoting the costs per capita of the death penalty in Maryland or New Jersey (two states that would rather hire prostitutes for prisoners than actually put one to death) seems suspect as well.

The cost of death penalty cases is largely due to the appeals process under Federal constitutional law, not state law. All stages along the way have extra costs in every state.

And I didn't vet the multiple studies performed, but the variety of sources seem quite diverse. Who knows the political nature, but I doubt many pro-death penalty groups would even both performing a cost analysis.

[93henfan]

The Death Penalty Information Center, huh? I don't have time to look up what their agenda is, but I can guess!

You can make statistics say anything.

Quoting the costs per capita of the death penalty in Maryland or New Jersey (two states that would rather hire prostitutes for prisoners than actually put one to death) seems suspect as well.

The cost of death penalty cases is largely due to the appeals process under Federal constitutional law, not state law. All stages along the way have extra costs in every state.

And I didn't vet the multiple studies performed, but the variety of sources seem quite diverse. Who knows the political nature, but I doubt many pro-death penalty groups would even both performing a cost analysis.

So what are the costs in an appeal that aren't already in place anyway, like salaries of judges, prosecutors, public defenders, and other court personnel?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

[danefan]

The cost of death penalty cases is largely due to the appeals process under Federal constitutional law, not state law. All stages along the way have extra costs in every state.

And I didn't vet the multiple studies performed, but the variety of sources seem quite diverse. Who knows the political nature, but I doubt many pro-death penalty groups would even both performing a cost analysis.

So what are the costs in an appeal that aren't already in place anyway, like salaries of judges, prosecutors, public defenders, and other court personnel?

Yes to all the above and the big cost differential is generally related to how the trail is recorded, archived and handled throughout. Appeals are extremely expensive and exponentially expensive as you move up levels.

Most death-penalty appeals are handled through a two part system. A direct appeal to the State's highest court (if a state case) in which only the facts of the case are reviewed. A second indirect appeal into the federal system in which the procedure and other issues are handled (e.g., competency of counsel, etc..).

Neither of these are handled by run-of-the-mill public defenders. Generally, attorneys in private practice are appointed by and paid for by the state.

[Chizzang]

I'm a Liberal and I agree with this ^ statement
I think the machine gun and Eagle are a hysterical Right wing nod to insanity but otherwise = YES

[AZGrizFan]

I'm a Liberal and I agree with this ^ statement
I think the machine gun and Eagle are a hysterical Right wing nod to insanity but otherwise = YES

I think it's hilarious that liberals think THAT is a machine gun.

[Chizzang]

I think it's hilarious that liberals think THAT is a machine gun.

And conservatives think this is business as usual...

[AZGrizFan]

I think it's hilarious that liberals think THAT is a machine gun.

And conservatives think this is business as usual...

Nice red herring.

At least I think that's a red herring. Can't tell with all that sludge on it.

[Grizalltheway]

I think it's hilarious that liberals think THAT is a machine gun.

And conservatives think this is business as usual...

Cost of doing business. C'mon, 'zang.

[Pwns]

I think it's hilarious that liberals think THAT is a machine gun.

And conservatives think this is business as usual...

I guess this is where I say liberals care more about the seagulls and the seals than the 11 people who died at Deepwater Horizon?

[Chizzang]

Shouldn't conservatives be thrilled to meet a Liberal who couldn't care less about guns
Please Note: Not caring means I wouldn't know a machine gun from whatever that thing up there is
Please Note: Not caring means have as many as you like
Please Note: Not caring means feel free to exercise your 2nd amendment rights however you choose

But Conservatives don't actually understand the phrase "I don't care"
See Atheism

[Chizzang]

And conservatives think this is business as usual...

I guess this is where I say liberals care more about the seagulls and the seals than the 11 people who died at Deepwater Horizon?

I couldn't find a picture of the charred corpses...

[Pwns]

Shouldn't conservatives be thrilled to meet a Liberal who couldn't care less about guns
Please Note: Not caring means I wouldn't know a machine gun from whatever that thing up there is
Please Note: Not caring means have as many as you like
Please Note: Not caring means feel free to exercise your 2nd amendment rights however you choose

But Conservatives don't actually understand the phrase "I don't care"
See Atheism

Yes, I do wish that more folks who are clueless about guns would stop caring about guns as you do. It's the anti-gun folks who are also gun ignorant who are the problem, especially the ones that think that renewing the "make guns look less scary act of 1994" will prevent other Newtown incidents.

[houndawg]

A quick google search brought this article up, but there are numerous studies which support it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphilli ... h-penalty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Isn't living in New Jersey penalty enough?

For all but the hardest cases. Those should be sent to North Dakota.

[AZGrizFan]

Shouldn't conservatives be thrilled to meet a Liberal who couldn't care less about guns
Please Note: Not caring means I wouldn't know a machine gun from whatever that thing up there is
Please Note: Not caring means have as many as you like
Please Note: Not caring means feel free to exercise your 2nd amendment rights however you choose

But Conservatives don't actually understand the phrase "I don't care"
See Atheism

I'm always thrilled to meet you.