ND Conk: Rape, Incest Abortion = Mandatory Life Sentence

[89Hen]

Ahhhh, therein lies the root of the problem. Pro-choice pretend to know the moment a child becomes a child.

So does the pro-life side of the argument which is why it is an issue that can be debated ad infinitum without either side ever budging. It all come down to when a person becomes a person, which is indeterminable.

EXACTLY my point. If we agree we don't know, how can we not agree to err on the side of caution considering what is at stake??

[89Hen]

Ahhhh, therein lies the root of the problem. Pro-choice pretend to know the moment a child becomes a child.

I hate to break it to ya...
but you are also pretending you know

Wrong. See above. I completely admit I don't know. The BEST a pro-choicer can hope to say is they "know" it's not at the instant of conception. 8 months? 6? 4? 1?

[D1B]

So does the pro-life side of the argument which is why it is an issue that can be debated ad infinitum without either side ever budging. It all come down to when a person becomes a person, which is indeterminable.

EXACTLY my point. If we agree we don't know, how can we not agree to err on the side of caution considering what is at stake??

Well, your god kills em by the millions, daily, in the first trimester. It's a start.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

So does the pro-life side of the argument which is why it is an issue that can be debated ad infinitum without either side ever budging. It all come down to when a person becomes a person, which is indeterminable.

EXACTLY my point. If we agree we don't know, how can we not agree to err on the side of caution considering what is at stake??

I don't think it is that easy. Using abortion as a last chance form of birth control is, in my opinion, morally reprehensible. I do believe, however, that there are circumstances where the woman was not a willing participant in the creation of the pregnancy that the doubt about the human element of the fetus is enough to justify her not having to be burdened with a child as the result of being a victim. I think such a contingency would be nearly impossible to effectively legislate.

The only answer is require all people to be spayed or neutered at the age of twelve. To have the procedure reversed, a person would need to apply for a license that can only be granted once a determined set of criteria is met by the applicants.

[89Hen]

I don't think it is that easy. Using abortion as a last chance form of birth control is, in my opinion, morally reprehensible. I do believe, however, that there are circumstances where the woman was not a willing participant in the creation of the pregnancy that the doubt about the human element of the fetus is enough to justify her not having to be burdened with a child as the result of being a victim. I think such a contingency would be nearly impossible to effectively legislate.

So you're willing to let 99.8% of the abortions used at birth control go because of the 0.2% where there's a circumstance where the woman was not a willing participant? I'm not even sure if it's as high at 0.2%.

[D1B]

I don't think it is that easy. Using abortion as a last chance form of birth control is, in my opinion, morally reprehensible. I do believe, however, that there are circumstances where the woman was not a willing participant in the creation of the pregnancy that the doubt about the human element of the fetus is enough to justify her not having to be burdened with a child as the result of being a victim. I think such a contingency would be nearly impossible to effectively legislate.

So you're willing to let 99.8% of the abortions used at birth control go because of the 0.2% where there's a circumstance where the woman was not a willing participant? I'm not even sure if it's as high at 0.2%.

Your god knocks out at least 25% of all fetuses.

[89Hen]

Your god knocks out at least 25% of all fetuses.

Why don't you let the adults talk.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

Very funny that I saw this TODAY.

[Baldy]

I keep saying there is a war on women in the Republican party
and they keep telling me it's just a talking point and only my imagination

and these guys keep popping up...

Then they say their odd balls
Then I see they speak at the convention

The War on Women is REAL

You damn right it is, just ask any of the 680,000+ women who have lost jobs under Obama.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

I don't think it is that easy. Using abortion as a last chance form of birth control is, in my opinion, morally reprehensible. I do believe, however, that there are circumstances where the woman was not a willing participant in the creation of the pregnancy that the doubt about the human element of the fetus is enough to justify her not having to be burdened with a child as the result of being a victim. I think such a contingency would be nearly impossible to effectively legislate.

So you're willing to let 99.8% of the abortions used at birth control go because of the 0.2% where there's a circumstance where the woman was not a willing participant? I'm not even sure if it's as high at 0.2%.

I actually think the percent is higher than the .2% you quote. I am not just referring to victims of violent rape, but those of date rape as well. I think a large percentage of those go unreported. I don't think the percentage really isn all that important, though. I concede that it is small.

The thing is, I don't know that making (first trimester) abortion illegal is the right way for us to go as a society, even though I think the major majority of abortions are immoral acts. What happens if abortion becomes illegal? Millions of unwanted kids are added to the population that now holds way to many unwanted kids as it is. What does that do to our society? I honestly don't know, but I find it difficult not to look at the issue from a utilitarian perspective. In this case, should we legislate other people's morality? The answer to that question comes back full circle to the "is the fetus a person or not" argument. I don't know.

I am conflicted over the whole issue of the legality of abortion. From a personal stand point, I am pro-life and would never be part of a decision to terminate a pregnancy for any reason. From a societal standpoint, the prospect of making abortion illegal scares the shit out of me.

[dbackjon]

Fat fuck conk with his fat fucking head in the sand. You tell your wife this shit, bonehead?

I'll let chizzang, dbackjon, grizo, ursus, pols, GATW, grizzaholic, Chris, or any of a number of others who've had the fortune to cross paths with the Goddess answer that question.

Tom in Yuma - big bad tough guy
Tom in Cave Creek - yes dear, you want a party with 25 guests that will force me to spend the week before painting, cleaning and landscaping? No problem

[BlueHen86]

So you're willing to let 99.8% of the abortions used at birth control go because of the 0.2% where there's a circumstance where the woman was not a willing participant? I'm not even sure if it's as high at 0.2%.

I actually think the percent is higher than the .2% you quote. I am not just referring to victims of violent rape, but those of date rape as well. I think a large percentage of those go unreported. I don't think the percentage really isn all that important, though. I concede that it is small.

The thing is, I don't know that making (first trimester) abortion illegal is the right way for us to go as a society, even though I think the major majority of abortions are immoral acts. What happens if abortion becomes illegal? Millions of unwanted kids are added to the population that now holds way to many unwanted kids as it is. What does that do to our society? I honestly don't know, but I find it difficult not to look at the issue from a utilitarian perspective. In this case, should we legislate other people's morality? The answer to that question comes back full circle to the "is the fetus a person or not" argument. I don't know.

I am conflicted over the whole issue of the legality of abortion. From a personal stand point, I am pro-life and would never be part of a decision to terminate a pregnancy for any reason. From a societal standpoint, the prospect of making abortion illegal scares the shit out of me.

Well said. Good post.

[dbackjon]

So you're willing to let 99.8% of the abortions used at birth control go because of the 0.2% where there's a circumstance where the woman was not a willing participant? I'm not even sure if it's as high at 0.2%.

I actually think the percent is higher than the .2% you quote. I am not just referring to victims of violent rape, but those of date rape as well. I think a large percentage of those go unreported. I don't think the percentage really isn all that important, though. I concede that it is small.

The thing is, I don't know that making (first trimester) abortion illegal is the right way for us to go as a society, even though I think the major majority of abortions are immoral acts. What happens if abortion becomes illegal? Millions of unwanted kids are added to the population that now holds way to many unwanted kids as it is. What does that do to our society? I honestly don't know, but I find it difficult not to look at the issue from a utilitarian perspective. In this case, should we legislate other people's morality? The answer to that question comes back full circle to the "is the fetus a person or not" argument. I don't know.

I am conflicted over the whole issue of the legality of abortion. From a personal stand point, I am pro-life and would never be part of a decision to terminate a pregnancy for any reason. From a societal standpoint, the prospect of making abortion illegal scares the shit out of me.

Are you sure you went to the same school as 89Hen? Great post!!

[Chizzang]

I keep saying there is a war on women in the Republican party
and they keep telling me it's just a talking point and only my imagination

and these guys keep popping up...

Then they say their odd balls
Then I see they speak at the convention

The War on Women is REAL

You damn right it is, just ask any of the 680,000+ women who have lost jobs under Obama.

because we all know a Republican president will solve the JOBs issue

That is good stuff there Bro
Admit it - you just want a republican in office - regardless

[Gil Dobie]

That is good stuff there Bro
Admit it - you just want a republican in office - regardless

A Democrat other than Obama, a Republican or a Third Party Candidate would be acceptable. Most preferable would be a leader that can right this ship. Hope has left the building with Obama.

[89Hen]

The thing is, I don't know that making (first trimester) abortion illegal is the right way for us to go as a society, even though I think the major majority of abortions are immoral acts. What happens if abortion becomes illegal? Millions of unwanted kids are added to the population that now holds way to many unwanted kids as it is. What does that do to our society? I honestly don't know, but I find it difficult not to look at the issue from a utilitarian perspective. In this case, should we legislate other people's morality? The answer to that question comes back full circle to the "is the fetus a person or not" argument. I don't know.

I am conflicted over the whole issue of the legality of abortion. From a personal stand point, I am pro-life and would never be part of a decision to terminate a pregnancy for any reason. From a societal standpoint, the prospect of making abortion illegal scares the shit out of me.

Looking at it from a utilitarian standpoint is what should scare the shit out of you. Wouldn't society be better off if we just euthanized the homeless, indigents, mentally retarded...

Usually when pro-choice people start talking about rape, incest, burden to society... they have pretty much conceded that they really are on shaky ground when it comes to the morality of a VAST majority of abortions and are just looking for another way to justify killing unborn children.

On a side note about the "burden"... I wonder how many unwanted pregnancies would be prevented in the first place if abortion were illegal. I don't think there are very many women who "want" an abortion, but if it were illegal I would haev to guess that many would become more careful when it came to birth control.

[89Hen]

Are you sure you went to the same school as 89Hen? Great post!!

Typical response. Can't see anything but your side on yet another issue Jon?

[Baldy]

You damn right it is, just ask any of the 680,000+ women who have lost jobs under Obama.

because we all know a Republican president will solve the JOBs issue

That is good stuff there Bro
Admit it - you just want a republican in office - regardless

because we all know that Obama's recovery is just around the corner, too [/sarcasm]

No bro, the survival of our country requires that Obama be out of office - regardless.

If Gary Johnson (or any other non whackjob) were a viable candidate, I would vote for him over Romney or any of the current Republican "contenders" in a heartbeat.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Looking at it from a utilitarian standpoint is what should scare the shit out of you. Wouldn't society be better off if we just euthanized the homeless, indigents, mentally retarded...

Usually when pro-choice people start talking about rape, incest, burden to society... they have pretty much conceded that they really are on shaky ground when it comes to the morality of a VAST majority of abortions and are just looking for another way to justify killing unborn children.

On a side note about the "burden"... I wonder how many unwanted pregnancies would be prevented in the first place if abortion were illegal. I don't think there are very many women who "want" an abortion, but if it were illegal I would haev to guess that many would become more careful when it came to birth control.

First of all, if you think making abortion illegal would serve as any kind of deterrent to people fucking irresponsibly, I think you're delusional.

When it comes to the homeless, indigents, mentally retarded, etc. - they are people. People have rights. People have hope. People can find better situations and circumstances. People can live happy lives despite handicaps.

Is an unwanted fetus a person that deserves similar treatment? I don't know and neither do you. Hence the confliction. To err on the side of life, as you say we should do, does not come without very negative reprecussions. You hate the welfare society that has been created in our country, but support the one thing that would most add to it. It ain't a cut and dry thing.

[89Hen]

Is an unwanted fetus a person that deserves similar treatment? I don't know and neither do you. Hence the confliction. To err on the side of life, as you say we should do, does not come without very negative reprecussions. You hate the welfare society that has been created in our country, but support the one thing that would most add to it. It ain't a cut and dry thing.

You're going right back to utilitarianism and repercussions and not the morality of killing an unborn child.

And since when do you speak for me on welfare?

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Is an unwanted fetus a person that deserves similar treatment? I don't know and neither do you. Hence the confliction. To err on the side of life, as you say we should do, does not come without very negative reprecussions. You hate the welfare society that has been created in our country, but support the one thing that would most add to it. It ain't a cut and dry thing.

You're going right back to utilitarianism and repercussions and not the morality of killing an unborn child.

And since when do you speak for me on welfare?

Was I wrong?

[dbackjon]

Are you sure you went to the same school as 89Hen? Great post!!

Typical response. Can't see anything but your side on yet another issue Jon?

Seems as if you can't

[89Hen]

You're going right back to utilitarianism and repercussions and not the morality of killing an unborn child.

And since when do you speak for me on welfare?

Was I wrong?

IMO your implication was that I was against welfare period. That's painting with a garden hose.

The easy road is not always the right one. I'm not OK with defending choice because killing unborn children lessens the burden on our society. I honestly don't know how anyone in good conscience can make that arguement. There are a LOT of things that would lessen the burden on our society that would be abhorrent to a vast majority of the people because they are more easily visualized. If more people saw the actual results of abortions, I'd have to believe a lot of people would have to rethink their pro-choice stance.

The good news is the tide is turning. People identifying themselves at Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice is now 50-41 (even women are now 46-44).

[89Hen]

Typical response. Can't see anything but your side on yet another issue Jon?

Seems as if you can't

I have no problem debating the other side, conceding points and keeping it civil. Over the years here, I think I've been pretty level headed on this subject.

[D1B]

Was I wrong?

IMO your implication was that I was against welfare period. That's painting with a garden hose.

The easy road is not always the right one. I'm not OK with defending choice because killing unborn children lessens the burden on our society. I honestly don't know how anyone in good conscience can make that arguement. There are a LOT of things that would lessen the burden on our society that would be abhorrent to a vast majority of the people because they are more easily visualized. If more people saw the actual results of abortions, I'd have to believe a lot of people would have to rethink their pro-choice stance.

The good news is the tide is turning. People identifying themselves at Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice is now 50-41 (even women are now 46-44).

Striaght from the catholic abortion debate handbook.