United Nations slams the Vatican

[JoltinJoe]

I believe in the Catholic Church because it was initiated by Christ, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and thus it is not possible for it to go wrong -- notwithstanding the massive failures of individuals who have claimed to act in its name. No man can reform the Church; man can only reform those who lead or have led the Church.

I think we can agree that causing the fall of those who act in the Church's name is a great temptation for the force of evil, because their failures cause a lack of faith among others. And that's why Catholic clergy are such a great target for the force of evil.
I wish you the best.

Spoken like a true wing nut. Love it!

But you think anyone of faith is a wing nut, so call me all the names you want. Christ said it; I believe it.

[JoltinJoe]

I believe in the Catholic Church because it was initiated by Christ, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and thus it is not possible for it to go wrong

This is where I have a problem with the Catholic Church. It is a human institution the same ass all other religions. A human institution based on a foundation of sprituality, but a human institution none the less. "Sanctified by the Holy Spirit" - what a bunch of nonsense.

It says precisely that in the New Testament. Either you believe it or you don't. I suspect if you don't believe it, then it sounds like nonsense.

[kalm]

Like becoming Incarnate? It would be hard to be more tangible than that.

Joe, why did God wait tens of thousands of years from the dawn of man to finally become incarnate? Doesn't appear to be a very smart or kind god to essentially deny salvation to billions of people who did nothing wrong except be born before god got off his lazy and an decided to clone himself.

Also, why did god decide to show his face in the most ingnorant illiterate backwater shithole on earth? If he was smart and kind, he would have become incarnate in a place like China where there were millions of people living in a highly literate culture at the time. It he'd done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Or if he would have at least dropped the occasional letter or postcard since.

[D1B]

Spoken like a true wing nut. Love it!

But you think anyone of faith is a wing nut, so call me all the names you want. Christ said it; I believe it.

Not true. I even admire many catholics.

Joe, you don't and may never realize it, but you're way too deep into that shit. It shows in some of your statements.

[D1B]

This is where I have a problem with the Catholic Church. It is a human institution the same ass all other religions. A human institution based on a foundation of sprituality, but a human institution none the less. "Sanctified by the Holy Spirit" - what a bunch of nonsense.

It says precisely that in the New Testament. Either you believe it or you don't. I suspect if you don't believe it, then it sounds like nonsense.

Why do you believe it?

[JoltinJoe]

Like becoming Incarnate? It would be hard to be more tangible than that.

Joe, why did God wait tens of thousands of years from the dawn of man to finally become incarnate? Doesn't appear to be a very smart or kind god to essentially deny salvation to billions of people who did nothing wrong except be born before god got off his lazy and an decided to clone himself.

Also, why did god decide to show his face in the most ingnorant illiterate backwater shithole on earth? If he was smart and kind, he would have become incarnate in a place like China where there were millions of people living in a highly literate culture at the time. It he'd done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

People who lived before Christ are saved. Christ died for all the living, the dead, and those yet to be born. And his mercy exceeds our imaginations, so it wouldn't be proper for us to place limitations on it.

Why Israel 2,000 years ago? I can't really say, but if you have studied the history of that time, as well as the growth of the Church, you might be impressed that Rome had built an extensive system of travel -- and there numerous other reasons existing at that time -- which permitted the Apostles and followers to easily travel virtually all over the known world to spread the Gospel. Who are you to say that this was ineffective? The Church spread to all the known world, and continues to exist in all the known world today -- just as Christ predicted, his Church is found all over the world. I call your attention to the Open Class Yale Course link I've posted before for you. There is an extended discussion of how conditions existing in the world at that time were ideal for the growth of the Church -- despite being actively persecuted by the Roman Empire.

With 1.2 billion adherents, Catholicism is the single most unified religious institution in the World (although Islam has 1.5 million followers, they are divided into Sunni and Shiite sects). If you count all persons who identify themselves as "Christian," then you have over 2 billion adherents in the world today. So who are you to say God was ineffective in where he planted this seed?

[JoltinJoe]

Joe, why did God wait tens of thousands of years from the dawn of man to finally become incarnate? Doesn't appear to be a very smart or kind god to essentially deny salvation to billions of people who did nothing wrong except be born before god got off his lazy and an decided to clone himself.

Also, why did god decide to show his face in the most ingnorant illiterate backwater shithole on earth? If he was smart and kind, he would have become incarnate in a place like China where there were millions of people living in a highly literate culture at the time. It he'd done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Or if he would have at least dropped the occasional letter or postcard since.

He does. But when he does, you scoff at proof of it, or you don't see it.

Tell me again how 70,000 could be subject to a "group delusion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[D1B]

Joe, why did God wait tens of thousands of years from the dawn of man to finally become incarnate? Doesn't appear to be a very smart or kind god to essentially deny salvation to billions of people who did nothing wrong except be born before god got off his lazy and an decided to clone himself.

Also, why did god decide to show his face in the most ingnorant illiterate backwater shithole on earth? If he was smart and kind, he would have become incarnate in a place like China where there were millions of people living in a highly literate culture at the time. It he'd done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

People who lived before Christ are saved. Christ died for all the living, the dead, and those yet to be born. And his mercy exceeds our imaginations, so it wouldn't be proper for us to place limitations on it.

Why Israel 2,000 years ago? I can't really say, but if you have studied the history of that time, as well as the growth of the Church, you might be impressed that Rome had built an extensive system of travel -- and there numerous other reasons existing at that time -- which permitted the Apostles and followers to easily travel virtually all over the known world to spread the Gospel. Who are you to say that this was ineffective? The Church spread to all the known world, and continues to exist in all the known world today -- just as Christ predicted, his Church is found all over the world. I call your attention to the Open Class Yale Course link I've posted before for you. There is an extended discussion of how conditions existing in the world at that time were ideal for the growth of the Church -- despite being actively persecuted by the Roman Empire.

With 1.2 billion adherents, Catholicism is the single most unified religious institution in the World (although Islam has 1.5 million followers, they are divided into Sunni and Shiite sects). If you count all persons who identify themselves as "Christian," then you have over 2 billion adherents in the world today. So who are you to say God was ineffective in where he planted this seed?

1. So they were grandfathered in?

2. Would have spread infinitely more rapid in China and we would have few discussions related to accuracy of scripture and we would have thousands of first hand accounts of Jesus, versus 0. Both would have saved millions of lives in religious wars.

3. We have billions of adherents because Constantine flipped a coin and chose Christianity and for the following 1500 years, Western Civilization and savage colonies around the world were subjected to unparalleled brutality by the Catholic Church for non belief. It is only very recently, primarily though the efforts of scientists, women, atheists, deists, secularists and other people oppressed by the church, that the church is no longer the brutal killing machine it once was.

[FCS PATRIOTS]

quit picking on JJ.

SIGNED,
EPISCOPALIAN CHRISTIAN

[JoltinJoe]

People who lived before Christ are saved. Christ died for all the living, the dead, and those yet to be born. And his mercy exceeds our imaginations, so it wouldn't be proper for us to place limitations on it.

Why Israel 2,000 years ago? I can't really say, but if you have studied the history of that time, as well as the growth of the Church, you might be impressed that Rome had built an extensive system of travel -- and there numerous other reasons existing at that time -- which permitted the Apostles and followers to easily travel virtually all over the known world to spread the Gospel. Who are you to say that this was ineffective? The Church spread to all the known world, and continues to exist in all the known world today -- just as Christ predicted, his Church is found all over the world. I call your attention to the Open Class Yale Course link I've posted before for you. There is an extended discussion of how conditions existing in the world at that time were ideal for the growth of the Church -- despite being actively persecuted by the Roman Empire.

With 1.2 billion adherents, Catholicism is the single most unified religious institution in the World (although Islam has 1.5 million followers, they are divided into Sunni and Shiite sects). If you count all persons who identify themselves as "Christian," then you have over 2 billion adherents in the world today. So who are you to say God was ineffective in where he planted this seed?

1. So they were grandfathered in?

2. Would have spread infinitely more rapid in China and we would have few discussions related to accuracy of scripture and we would have thousands of first hand accounts of Jesus, versus 0. Both would have saved millions of lives in religious wars.

3. We have billions of adherents because Constantine flipped a coin and chose Christianity and for the following 1500 years, Western Civilization and savage colonies around the world were subjected to unparalleled brutality by the Catholic Church for non belief. It is only very recently, primarily though the efforts of scientists, women, atheists, deists, secularists and other people oppressed by the church, that the church is no longer the brutal killing machine it once was.

Your first two points are flawed theology. Your third point is inaccurate (grossly inaccurate) history.

[JoltinJoe]

It says precisely that in the New Testament. Either you believe it or you don't. I suspect if you don't believe it, then it sounds like nonsense.

Why do you believe it?

I recently offered a long explanation about how my faith was the product of rational thought and education. You dismissed this by sarcastically congratulating me on my spiritual journey (which is cool, because that means you had no real response to what I said). So why start a discussion you aren't really willing to have?

[D1B]

Or if he would have at least dropped the occasional letter or postcard since.

He does. But when he does, you scoff at proof of it, or you don't see it.

Tell me again how 70,000 could be subject to a "group delusion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Easy:

1. The large group of extremely religious people was "primed" to see a miracle before the "miracle". This shit happens all the time in fundamentalist christian churches every day. MOF, last week, some fat, sweaty preacher actually cured someone's diabetes in front of millions of people on TV and thousands at the church.

2. They were told to stare directly at the sun. You ever do that Joe? If you did, you would experience visual hallucinations for several minutes or more, that resemble the sun dancing.

3. Even though there were witnesses there who reported seeing nothing, there was surely considerable peer or group pressure to see "something". No one wants to be the odd man out, right?

4. If it were a true miracle it would have been seen by at least a hundred million other people on earth, but no, just this relatively small, super-religious group of people in a backward shithole like bronze age Israel, who were told what to see before they were told to stare directly into the sun to witness it.

[D1B]

Why do you believe it?

I recently offered a long explanation about how my faith was the product of rational thought and education. You dismissed this by sarcastically congratulating me on my spiritual journey (which is cool, because that means you had no real response to what I said). So why start a discussion you aren't really willing to have?

You're right.

Honestly, I just find it fascinating how someone as intelligent (and badass ) as you can not only fall for the nonsense, but go in deep.

[JoltinJoe]

He does. But when he does, you scoff at proof of it, or you don't see it.

Tell me again how 70,000 could be subject to a "group delusion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Easy:

1. The large group of extremely religious people was "primed" to see a miracle before the "miracle". This **** happens all the time in fundamentalist christian churches every day. MOF, last week, some fat, sweaty preacher actually cured someone's diabetes in front of millions of people on TV and thousands at the church.

2. They were told to stare directly at the sun. You ever do that Joe? If you did, you would experience visual hallucinations for several minutes or more, that resemble the sun dancing.

3. Even though there were witnesses there who reported seeing nothing, there was surely considerable peer or group pressure to see "something". No one wants to be the odd man out, right?

4. If it were a true miracle it would have been seen by at least a hundred million other people on earth, but no, just this relatively small, super-religious group of people in a backward shithole like bronze age Israel, who were told what to see before they were told to stare directly into the sun to witness it.

(1) Not true. Many people, including the secular media, ridiculed the children and were there to mock them when nothing happened. Indeed, the most convincing account about what happened was from a secular reporter who had previously mocked the children in his columns -- only to come away convinced he had seen a miracle.

(2) Not true. No one was told to stare at the sun; that's something that non-believers say now. Before the incident happened, no one knew what the nature of the miracle would be. They didn't know it would be a "sun miracle."

(3) This is analysis, not a fact. But again, see Point I above.

(4) 70,000 people were present. Again, see Point II above.

[JoltinJoe]

I recently offered a long explanation about how my faith was the product of rational thought and education. You dismissed this by sarcastically congratulating me on my spiritual journey (which is cool, because that means you had no real response to what I said). So why start a discussion you aren't really willing to have?

You're right.

Honestly, I just find it fascinating how someone as intelligent (and badass ) as you can not only fall for the nonsense, but go in deep.

What do you believe? That we are some accident of physics and biology; that our emotions and deep feelings of love and community are delusions and ultimately count for nothing? That would make us the most pathetic creatures on the face of the earth -- that our feelings of love are just biological impulses which we have deluded ourselves into believing are far deeper and more significant.

You believe Hitler and Stalin will get the same rest that you will -- despite all the wonderful things you do for others. You believe children who starve to death just rot and are forgotten. You believe that the Wall Street executive who lies and cheats to earn his massive seven-figure income gets the same ultimate treatment as those who labor to feed, clothe, and educate the needy.

No thanks. I can't believe that.

[D1B]

Easy:

1. The large group of extremely religious people was "primed" to see a miracle before the "miracle". This **** happens all the time in fundamentalist christian churches every day. MOF, last week, some fat, sweaty preacher actually cured someone's diabetes in front of millions of people on TV and thousands at the church.

2. They were told to stare directly at the sun. You ever do that Joe? If you did, you would experience visual hallucinations for several minutes or more, that resemble the sun dancing.

3. Even though there were witnesses there who reported seeing nothing, there was surely considerable peer or group pressure to see "something". No one wants to be the odd man out, right?

4. If it were a true miracle it would have been seen by at least a hundred million other people on earth, but no, just this relatively small, super-religious group of people in a backward shithole like bronze age Israel, who were told what to see before they were told to stare directly into the sun to witness it.

(1) Not true. Many people, including the secular media, ridiculed the children and were there to mock them when nothing happened. Indeed, the most convincing account about what happened was from a secular reporter who had previously mocked the children in his columns -- only to come away convinced he had seen a miracle.

(2) Not true. No one was told to stare at the sun; that's something that non-believers say now. Before the incident happened, no one knew what the nature of the miracle would be. They didn't know it would be a "sun miracle."

(3) This is analysis, not a fact. But again, see Point I above.

(4) 70,000 people were present. Again, see Point II above.

All of my points are rational responses.

You're a believer and until I rid you of your faith, which I won't and cant, you will continue come up with excuses. So this is futile.

When it comes to these silly things, it's up to you to prove it happened. The catholic accounts of the super religious just doesn't suffice, in the real world.

[D1B]

You're right.

Honestly, I just find it fascinating how someone as intelligent (and badass ) as you can not only fall for the nonsense, but go in deep.

What do you believe? That we are some accident of physics and biology; that our emotions and deep feelings of love and community are delusions and ultimately count for nothing? That would make us the most pathetic creatures on the face of the earth -- that our feelings of love are just biological impulses which we have deluded ourselves into believing are far deeper and more significant.

You believe Hitler and Stalin will get the same rest that you will -- despite all the wonderful things you do for others. You believe children who starve to death just rot and are forgotten. You believe that the Wall Street executive who lies and cheats to earn his massive seven-figure income gets the same ultimate treatment as those who labor to feed, clothe, and educate the needy.

No thanks. I can't believe that.

More or less, yes, that's what I believe. It aint fun either.

[AZGrizFan]

What do you believe? That we are some accident of physics and biology; that our emotions and deep feelings of love and community are delusions and ultimately count for nothing? That would make us the most pathetic creatures on the face of the earth -- that our feelings of love are just biological impulses which we have deluded ourselves into believing are far deeper and more significant.

You believe Hitler and Stalin will get the same rest that you will -- despite all the wonderful things you do for others. You believe children who starve to death just rot and are forgotten. You believe that the Wall Street executive who lies and cheats to earn his massive seven-figure income gets the same ultimate treatment as those who labor to feed, clothe, and educate the needy.

No thanks. I can't believe that.

More or less, yes, that's what I believe. It aint fun either.

No wonder you're such a sad, angry little man...

[JoltinJoe]

What do you believe? That we are some accident of physics and biology; that our emotions and deep feelings of love and community are delusions and ultimately count for nothing? That would make us the most pathetic creatures on the face of the earth -- that our feelings of love are just biological impulses which we have deluded ourselves into believing are far deeper and more significant.

You believe Hitler and Stalin will get the same rest that you will -- despite all the wonderful things you do for others. You believe children who starve to death just rot and are forgotten. You believe that the Wall Street executive who lies and cheats to earn his massive seven-figure income gets the same ultimate treatment as those who labor to feed, clothe, and educate the needy.

No thanks. I can't believe that.

More or less, yes, that's what I believe. It aint fun either.

So join the Church and have fun! Plenty of women folk too, who need some reason to go to confession and have something to confess.

[AZGrizFan]

More or less, yes, that's what I believe. It aint fun either.

So join the Church and have fun! Plenty of women folk too, who need some reason to go to confession and have something to confess.

Christianmingle.com....a buddy of mine says he gets more pussy from those poor, oppressed "religious" women than any dating site he's ever used...

[D1B]

More or less, yes, that's what I believe. It aint fun either.

No wonder you're such a sad, angry little man...

Shit, Z, you're the one raging here all the time bout Obama. You haven't composed a humorous thread here in 6 years and your life seems to revolve around the Obama Family, shitty beer and fat, buxom black women. Which is pathetic, except of course for the buxom black women.

I, on the other hand, infuse humor in all my posts and people here love me.

[D1B]

More or less, yes, that's what I believe. It aint fun either.

So join the Church and have fun! Plenty of women folk too, who need some reason to go to confession and have something to confess.

Can't handle the mass and bullshit. Love the art though.

[AZGrizFan]

No wonder you're such a sad, angry little man...

Shit, Z, you're the one raging here all the time bout Obama. You haven't composed a humorous thread here in 6 years and your life seems to revolve around the Obama Family, shitty beer and fat, buxom black women. Which is pathetic, except of course for the buxom black women.

I, on the other hand, infuse humor in all my posts and people here love me.

Let me add "delusional" to my list of D1B adjectives, above.

And HEY now, I use the smilie more than just about anyone.

[D1B]

Shit, Z, you're the one raging here all the time bout Obama. You haven't composed a humorous thread here in 6 years and your life seems to revolve around the Obama Family, shitty beer and fat, buxom black women. Which is pathetic, except of course for the buxom black women.

I, on the other hand, infuse humor in all my posts and people here love me.

Let me add "delusional" to my list of D1B adjectives, above.

And HEY now, I use the smilie more than just about anyone.

Sorry, meant to say REALLY shitty beer.

[AZGrizFan]

Let me add "delusional" to my list of D1B adjectives, above.

And HEY now, I use the smilie more than just about anyone.

Sorry, meant to say REALLY shitty beer.

Well, if you'd be more clear it would really help.