Great idea to Save the Country

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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Yeah. 16 references to something in a one-page document. No big deal. :lol: :lol: :lol: :dunce:
So I'm guessing you've never actually read it then...
Fine. Two pages?
:coffee:
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

Okay...
So from this document (somehow) The Tea Party has discerned that we were founded as a Christian Nation
Probably because it says Jeezus in there so many times..?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

Chizzang wrote:Okay...
So from this document (somehow) The Tea Party has discerned that we were founded as a Christian Nation
Probably because it says Jeezus in there so many times..?
My quess is that the founding fathers were Christians.

Interesting, the colonies were very intolerant to other religions in the beginning. We gradually became more tolerant of other religions only tohave the Tea Party (evangelical) people go back to religious intolerance.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

Ibanez wrote:
Chizzang wrote:Okay...
So from this document (somehow) The Tea Party has discerned that we were founded as a Christian Nation
Probably because it says Jeezus in there so many times..?
My quess is that the founding fathers were Christians.

Interesting, the colonies were very intolerant to other religions in the beginning. We gradually became more tolerant of other religions only tohave the Tea Party (evangelical) people go back to religious intolerance.
Well that would be an interesting "guess"
I don't know about all of them but Jefferson said: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally was vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was... he could be called a "Hater"

In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not become involved in the support of any religion.

This paper - largely unread by The Tea Party - is long considered a landmark document in political philosophy
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Wedgebuster »

Tea Baggers are now wanting to secede from the United States and set up their own state governments so they can have their way all the time.

8-)

True tea baggers apparently hate their country, and are now comfortable in the traitor mode.

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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

Chizzang wrote:
Ibanez wrote: My quess is that the founding fathers were Christians.

Interesting, the colonies were very intolerant to other religions in the beginning. We gradually became more tolerant of other religions only tohave the Tea Party (evangelical) people go back to religious intolerance.
Well that would be an interesting "guess"
I don't know about all of them but Jefferson said: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally was vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was... he could be called a "Hater"

In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not become involved in the support of any religion.

This paper - largely unread by The Tea Party - is long considered a landmark document in political philosophy
Jefferson and many founders were Diests. It isn't a form of christianity, but there are some similiar principles. It's basically Christianity without all the magic, miracles and dogma (for example.)

Diesm is the way to go, IMO.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

Ibanez wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Well that would be an interesting "guess"
I don't know about all of them but Jefferson said: "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally was vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was... he could be called a "Hater"

In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not become involved in the support of any religion.

This paper - largely unread by The Tea Party - is long considered a landmark document in political philosophy
Jefferson and many founders were Diests. It isn't a form of christianity, but there are some similiar principles. It's basically Christianity without all the magic, miracles and dogma (for example.)

Diesm is the way to go, IMO.
Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Bison Fan in NW MN »

Chizzang wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
Jefferson and many founders were Diests. It isn't a form of christianity, but there are some similiar principles. It's basically Christianity without all the magic, miracles and dogma (for example.)

Diesm is the way to go, IMO.
Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)

Charles Taze Russel (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) also wrote his own version...or basically change it to fit is own "vision".
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by JohnStOnge »

Science most notable recent accomplishment just landed on Mars
Religion's most recent accomplishment flew aircraft into the twin towers and organized pedophilia
That has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not freedom "from" religion is more important than freedom "of" religion.

Freedom from religion was not necessary for the mars landing accomplishment. Historically, there have been religious people in the space program. Back in the Apollo days we had...shudder...astronauts on GOVERNMENT TIME reading Bible verses from space. I know of no evidence to suggest that religion ever impeded progress of the United States space program at all.

And, as I've written before when D1B brings stuff about people committing atrocities up as though that means we wouldn't have such things in the absence of religion, it is likely that officially atheist regimes have killed more people in the name of thought and behavior control than religious regimes have. Maybe that wasn't the case prior to the 20th century. But then we had people like Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot. Religion is not a necessary condition for such things.

Another thing is that the eventual logical conclusion of atheism is that there is no such thing as human rights, no such thing as a need to treat others well unless you see it as an advantage to you, no innate morality at all. We've been through that on this board and I guess we can do it again. But it's just not there. In fact I heard a good quote by Einstien the other day:
You are right in speaking of the moral foundations of science, but you cannot turn round and speak of the scientific foundations of morality.
Don't know the context of it except that he said it during a 1930 discussion on science and religion in Berlin. But it's true as it is. The idea that one can arrive upon an objective, intrinsic morality through human reason alone without the concept of "something else" that sets the rules is an illusion. In the end it must fail.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)

Charles Taze Russel (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) also wrote his own version...or basically change it to fit is own "vision".
Right but I was responding to the idea that Jefferson was a Christian...
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Science most notable recent accomplishment just landed on Mars
Religion's most recent accomplishment flew aircraft into the twin towers and organized pedophilia
That has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not freedom "from" religion is more important than freedom "of" religion.

Freedom from religion was not necessary for the mars landing accomplishment. Historically, there have been religious people in the space program. Back in the Apollo days we had...shudder...astronauts on GOVERNMENT TIME reading Bible verses from space. I know of no evidence to suggest that religion ever impeded progress of the United States space program at all.
Right except the origins of the study of the universe (space) was indeed against the will of the church and people were indeed killed for it... Galileo was under permanent "house arrest" for making observations about space... so my statement stands
And, as I've written before when D1B brings stuff about people committing atrocities up as though that means we wouldn't have such things in the absence of religion, it is likely that officially atheist regimes have killed more people in the name of thought and behavior control than religious regimes have. Maybe that wasn't the case prior to the 20th century. But then we had people like Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot. Religion is not a necessary condition for such things.

Another thing is that the eventual logical conclusion of atheism is that there is no such thing as human rights, no such thing as a need to treat others well unless you see it as an advantage to you, no innate morality at all. We've been through that on this board and I guess we can do it again. But it's just not there. In fact I heard a good quote by Einstien the other day:
You are right in speaking of the moral foundations of science, but you cannot turn round and speak of the scientific foundations of morality.
Don't know the context of it except that he said it during a 1930 discussion on science and religion in Berlin. But it's true as it is. The idea that one can arrive upon an objective, intrinsic morality through human reason alone without the concept of "something else" that sets the rules is an illusion. In the end it must fail.
Great point and this is precisely where freedom FROM religion comes in - because - at that exact point is where religion tells you what to believe and how to believe it...
So yes...
Religious based nuts crashed jets into buildings because we don't believe the way they do
and my point is still completely valid - freedom FROM religion is the key. You see I have a belief system as well (all by myself) and it includes a higher power and it is completely personal, it requires absolutely no outside guidance or oversight... No magic underwear, no free planets, no ascension to godhood, no 72 virgins, no Jesus, no saints, no ancient magic, no text, no money for God, no giant building, no molestation or pedophilia, no priests...Just freedom FROM all of that nonsense.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by BlueHen86 »

Part of the reason for separation of chorch and state was that many of the colonies were founded by different religions. For example, I believe that Connecticut was Congregationalist and that there were laws requiring that only congregationalists could hold public office.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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BlueHen86 wrote:Part of the reason for separation of chorch and state was that many of the colonies were founded by different religions. For example, I believe that Connecticut was Congregationalist and that there were laws requiring that only congregationalists could hold public office.
I agree with that as being part of the reason for the establishment clause. But, in spite of Thomas Jefferson's use of the terminology "Separation of Church and State" in a letter there is no Separation of Church in State as we think of it today due to the Supreme Court's decree. And I don't see how people could be intellectually honest and say that there was or that the clause was construed in that way when Church Services were being held shortly thereafter in the House Chamber. Services that Thomas Jefferson attended at times (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ...but the fact that the Church Services were held there is also stated in documents you can see at government web sites).

There's just no way. They were using the House Chamber as a Church for Pete's sake. How much more "unseparated" could Church and State have been in that circumstance? The way the establishment clause is construed today because the Supreme Court basically perpetrated a lie bears no resemblance to how it was intended and how it was construed by Jefferson or anybody else in Jefferson's day.

All they meant was that they didn't want an official national religion or require that people had to be of a particular religion to hold office, etc. That's it. This stuff that's going on today, like the thing in today's news about Atheist fanatics driving out yet another public tradition of having a nativity scene in a park, was not at ALL what they had in mind. And, frankly, I think Jefferson and Company would be against that kind of stuff. They would not want the Federal government going in and telling local communities that they can't have nativity scenes. etc.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by JohnStOnge »

BTW I heard some guy on TV today say that American Atheists is a hate group. And you know what? If the "progressives" are consistent they're going to have to agree with that statement.

I'm holding my breath waiting for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SLPC) to put American Atheists on its Hate Groups list for its constant attacks upon Christianity and Christians, publicly belittling their beliefs, etc. The effective definition of "Hate Group" is expressed at the SPLC web site as follows:
All hate groups have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.
Now it does say "typically for their immutable characteristics." But it does not say that's a necessary condition. Does anybody doubt that the SPLC would label an organization a hate group for attacks upon, say, Islam? So the American Atheist organization clearly spends a lot of time attacking and maligning Christianity as well as other religions.

So I shouldn't have to hold my breath for long, right?

It's not like "progressives" have ever been inconsistent in becoming outraged about people being attacked and belittled depending on who is being attacked and belittled, right?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by AZGrizFan »

Chizzang wrote:Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)
Were you THERE? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

Chizzang wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
Jefferson and many founders were Diests. It isn't a form of christianity, but there are some similiar principles. It's basically Christianity without all the magic, miracles and dogma (for example.)

Diesm is the way to go, IMO.
Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)
Yea, it's based on reason and the natural world.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)

Charles Taze Russel (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) also wrote his own version...or basically change it to fit is own "vision".
TJ was practicing a natural, moral religion based on reasoning. I don't know about CTR, was he trying to create a new religion?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Chizzang wrote:Indeed...
most Americans are completely unaware that Jefferson wrote his own account of "the Bible"
and interesting to note: Mary was not a virgin / Jesus actually died... as in dead / Seas never parted / Nobody walked on water...

:nod: Nothing Christian about that (at all)
Were you THERE? :lol: :lol: :lol:
The bible is on display. TJs religious ideology was no mystery. Most Americans are to lazy to learn anything past their high school history classes
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Bison Fan in NW MN »

Ibanez wrote:
Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:

Charles Taze Russel (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses) also wrote his own version...or basically change it to fit is own "vision".
TJ was practicing a natural, moral religion based on reasoning. I don't know about CTR, was he trying to create a new religion?

TJ was a 'deist' as you say. But were did that original thought of his come from? Christianity must have played a part in this belief. TJ also owned hundreds of slaves in his lifetime. He had conflicting views on slavery. His 'slaves' worked and lived in the White House.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by death dealer »

Ibanez wrote: The bible is on display. TJs religious ideology was no mystery. Most Americans are to lazy to learn anything past their high school history class.
Yeh, they won't even take the time to learn the difference between TO and TOO. :coffee:











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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:
Ibanez wrote: TJ was practicing a natural, moral religion based on reasoning. I don't know about CTR, was he trying to create a new religion?

TJ was a 'deist' as you say. But were did that original thought of his come from? Christianity must have played a part in this belief. TJ also owned hundreds of slaves in his lifetime. He had conflicting views on slavery. His 'slaves' worked and lived in the White House.
Yeah, it's based on Christianity, hence the modified Bible. Deism is a "modified" Christianity, IMO. I believe I have already said this, but Deism comes out of the enlightment and puts an emphasis on reasoning, rational thought and the natural world. No miracles, immaculate conceptions, parting seas,etc...
Last edited by Ibanez on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:
Ibanez wrote: TJ was practicing a natural, moral religion based on reasoning. I don't know about CTR, was he trying to create a new religion?

TJ was a 'deist' as you say. But were did that original thought of his come from? Christianity must have played a part in this belief. TJ also owned hundreds of slaves in his lifetime. He had conflicting views on slavery. His 'slaves' worked and lived in the White House.
It came from the enlightenment. The Jesus story was simply a part of it.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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Ibanez wrote:
Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:

TJ was a 'deist' as you say. But were did that original thought of his come from? Christianity must have played a part in this belief. TJ also owned hundreds of slaves in his lifetime. He had conflicting views on slavery. His 'slaves' worked and lived in the White House.
Yeah, it's based on Christianity, hence the modified Bible. Deism is a "modified" Christianity, IMO.

Interesing read on deism. If 'God' is removed or unattached from almost everything.....why believe in anything at all?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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kalm wrote:
Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:

TJ was a 'deist' as you say. But were did that original thought of his come from? Christianity must have played a part in this belief. TJ also owned hundreds of slaves in his lifetime. He had conflicting views on slavery. His 'slaves' worked and lived in the White House.
It came from the enlightenment. The Jesus story was simply a part of it.

From the Age of Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th century?

Why didn't this belief catch on with America...or the world for that matter?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by kalm »

Bison Fan in NW MN wrote:
kalm wrote:
It came from the enlightenment. The Jesus story was simply a part of it.

From the Age of Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th century?

Why didn't this belief catch on with America...or the world for that matter?
It did. It's really these concepts that our nation was founded on.
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