Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

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GrizFanStuckInUtah
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by GrizFanStuckInUtah »

GannonFan wrote:Couldn't find a better place to ask this so decided to plop it here. I'm fairly in favor of banning certain types of weapons, in general. I'm no gun guy so I would have to lean on more expert opinions as to which ones and which features to target. But this idea that Obama said yesterday, the "No Fly, no Buy" law he wants initiated and passed, how would that work and how would that pass constitutional muster? How does one know they are on the no fly list other than being turned away at an airport. What criteria puts you on the no fly list? How do you contest it? What is the venue for contesting it? Being able not to fly isn't technically a constitutional right, although I'm sure there's some implied freedom there, but the right to bear arms is certainly more concrete. How, outside of a legal proceeding, can you have your right to bear arms taken away? I know it makes for a great slogan, but that "No Fly, no Buy" thing doesn't seem to have a lot of chance to survive legal challenges.
A lot of good questions that can be answered by one:

What happens when they put 350 million names on the list with no due process? :?:
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by GannonFan »

GrizFanStuckInUtah wrote:
GannonFan wrote:Couldn't find a better place to ask this so decided to plop it here. I'm fairly in favor of banning certain types of weapons, in general. I'm no gun guy so I would have to lean on more expert opinions as to which ones and which features to target. But this idea that Obama said yesterday, the "No Fly, no Buy" law he wants initiated and passed, how would that work and how would that pass constitutional muster? How does one know they are on the no fly list other than being turned away at an airport. What criteria puts you on the no fly list? How do you contest it? What is the venue for contesting it? Being able not to fly isn't technically a constitutional right, although I'm sure there's some implied freedom there, but the right to bear arms is certainly more concrete. How, outside of a legal proceeding, can you have your right to bear arms taken away? I know it makes for a great slogan, but that "No Fly, no Buy" thing doesn't seem to have a lot of chance to survive legal challenges.
A lot of good questions that can be answered by one:

What happens when they put 350 million names on the list with no due process? :?:
I don't see that happening anytime soon. But it can be done a few chunks at a time. Especially if they say if you've ever been on a watch list. The Orlando guy wasn't currently on a watch list (he had previously) so the no fly/no buy rule wouldn't even had precluded him.

But yes, the complete lack of due process to take away an enumerated (albeit controversially understood) right does seem worrisome, but also it just seems unlikely to stand in the absence of real due process.
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by GrizFanStuckInUtah »

GannonFan wrote:
GrizFanStuckInUtah wrote:
A lot of good questions that can be answered by one:

What happens when they put 350 million names on the list with no due process? :?:
I don't see that happening anytime soon. But it can be done a few chunks at a time. Especially if they say if you've ever been on a watch list. The Orlando guy wasn't currently on a watch list (he had previously) so the no fly/no buy rule wouldn't even had precluded him.

But yes, the complete lack of due process to take away an enumerated (albeit controversially understood) right does seem worrisome, but also it just seems unlikely to stand in the absence of real due process.
All it takes is one executive order and everyone is on the list. The IRS put conservative groups on a "Fuck you" list, it really isn't out of the realm of possibilities. :coffee:
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by HI54UNI »

NY Times thinks we should just have a secret court put people on the list. :ohno:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/opini ... p=cur&_r=2
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

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HI54UNI wrote:NY Times thinks we should just have a secret court put people on the list. :ohno:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/opini ... p=cur&_r=2
One promising model can be found in Fourth Amendment law on search and seizure. The Constitution allows the government to invade our privacy by, say, wiretapping our telephones, for law enforcement purposes in limited circumstances. First, the prosecutor must have probable cause, or sufficient evidence of wrongdoing. Second, the search must be approved by the courts.

Such principles, which were part of the framers’ broad conception of due process, have not always been followed when it comes to national security, from the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II to the Bush administration’s warrantless surveillance program. Yet those principles can provide a sound basis for no-buy lists.

Congress should authorize no-buy lists but mandate that appropriate protections be put in place. If the attorney general believes a suspected terrorist should be added to the list, she should have to go to court first and offer up evidence. Only after concluding that the attorney general has probable cause should the court approve the denial of the suspect’s right to buy a gun.

This court proceeding, of course, would be secret. Although that denies the person included on the no-buy list the opportunity to rebut the attorney general’s evidence, we do the same thing every day with search warrants and wiretaps for criminal suspects. Our right to bear arms is no more fundamental than our right to privacy, and treating them similarly can help keep us safer from terrorists.
Yeah, I can't get behind that legal thinking. Comparing it to search warrants and wiretaps just isn't the same. Losing the right to privacy is just different than losing the right to bear arms. For most things like wiretaps, you don't even know that you've lost that right. Walking into a gun store and being told no, you're on a list, is the only way you'd find out that you're on the list. And with a search warrant, they have to show it to you and you get to see what they're looking for. Having a star chamber tribunal pass judgment on you without your knowledge or input, ever, and always in secret just doesn't do it for me. If you make the court proceeding public, or give the person a chance to hear the evidence and a chance to refute it, then I can get on board. Or, of course, repeal the second amendment and remove it as a constitutional barrier. I'm just resistant to such flippant disregards of what's in the Constitution.
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by Baldy »

ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:Firearms companies need to fire up advertising like that again. Throw this shit in their face and make the left sick for awhile.

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That would be a microaggression. :nod:

Stop the hate. :tothehand: :(
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

93 I actually just bought another Arsenal AK and while at the gun shop saw this.

Image

They have hundreds of them anyone can do one and they are funny as hell

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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by YoUDeeMan »

GannonFan wrote:
...from the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II to the Bush administration’s warrantless surveillance program.
Anyone notice that the NYT got a Bush shot in? :suspicious:
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Re: Guns and Religion: Scourges On Our Society

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

Yes I did

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