Jesus had a wife

[Chizzang]

There is just as much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as there is for Jesus.

Whoa! there mister...
Are you suggesting Apollo doesn't exist? Because there are well documented sightings of Apollo (fact)
Also Christopher Columbus has two documented sightings of Mermaids (fact)

These things can't be disputed ^ they are documented

Lets just stick with the facts people

[D1B]

A PARABLE

I am today twenty-five hundred years old. I have been dead for nearly as many years. My place of birth was Athens; my grave was not far from those of Xenophon and Plato, within view of the white glory of Athens and the shimmering waters of the Aegean sea.
After sleeping in my grave for many centuries I awoke suddenly -- I cannot tell how nor why -- and was transported by a force beyond my control to this new day and this new city. I arrived here at daybreak, when the sky was still dull and drowsy. As I approached the city I heard bells ringing, and a little later I found the streets astir with throngs of well dressed people in family groups wending their way hither and thither. Evidently they were not going to work, for they were accompanied by their children in their best clothes, and a pleasant expression was upon their faces.

"This must be a day of festival and worship, devoted to one of their gods," I murmured to myself

Looking about me I saw a gentleman in a neat black dress, smiling, and his hand extended to me with great cordiality. He must have realized I was a stranger and wished to tender his hospitality to me. I accepted it gratefully. I clasped his hand. He pressed mine. We gazed for a moment into each other's eyes. He understood my bewilderment amid my novel surroundings, and offered to enlighten me. He explained to me the ringing of the bells and meaning of the holiday crowds moving in the streets. It was Sunday -- Sunday before Christmas, and the people were going to "the House of God."

"Of course you are going there, too," I said to my friendly guide.

"Yes," he answered, "I conduct the worship. I am a priest."

"A priest of Apollo?" I interrogated.

"No, no," he replied, raising his hand to command silence, "Apollo is not a god; he was only an idol."

"Am idol?" I whispered, taken by surprise.

"I perceive you are a Greek," he said to me, "and the Greeks," he continued, "notwithstanding their distinguished accomplishments, were an idolatrous people. They worshipped gods that did not exist. They built temples to divinities which were merely empty names -- empty names," he repeated. "Apollo and Athene -- and the entire Olympian lot were no more than inventions of the fancy."

"But the Greeks loved their gods," I protested, my heart clamoring in my breast.

"They were not gods, they were idols, and the difference between a god and an idol is this: an idol is a thing; God is a living being. When you cannot prove the existence of your god, when you have never seen him, nor heard his voice, nor touched him -- when you have nothing provable about him, he is an idol. Have you seen Apollo? Have you heard him? Have you touched him?"

"No," I said, in a low voice.

"Do you know of any one who has?"

I had to admit that I did not. "He was an idol, then, and not a god."

"But many of us Greeks," I said, "have felt Apollo in our hearts and have been inspired by him."

"You imagine you have," returned my guide. "If he were really divine be would be living to this day.

"Is he, then, dead?" I asked.

"He never lived; and for the last two thousand years or more his temple has been a heap of ruins."

I wept to hear that Apollo, the god of light and music, was no more -- that his fair temple had fallen into ruins and the fire upon his altar had been extinguished; then, wiping a tear from my eyes, I said, "Oh, but our gods were fair and beautiful; our religion was rich and picturesque. It made the Greeks a nation of poets, orators, artists, warriors, thinkers. It made Athens a city of light; it created the beautiful, the true, the good -- yes, our religion was divine."

"It had only one fault"' interrupted my guide.

"What was that?" I inquired, without knowing what his answer would be.

"It was not true."

"But I still believe in Apollo," I exclaimed; "he is not dead, I know he is alive."

"Prove it," he said to me; then, pausing for a moment, "if you produce him," he said, "we shall all fall down and worship him. Produce Apollo and be shall be our god."

"Produce him!" I whispered to myself. "What blasphemy!" Then, taking heart, I told my guide how more than once I had felt Apollo's radiant presence in my heart, and told him of the immortal lines of Homer concerning the divine Apollo. "Do you doubt Homer?" I said to him; "Homer, the inspired bard? Homer, whose ink-well was as big as the sea; whose imperishable page was Time? Homer, whose every word was a drop of light?" Then I proceeded to quote from Homer's Iliad, the Greek Bible, worshipped by all the Hellenes as the rarest Manuscript between heaven and earth. I quoted his description of Apollo, than whose lyre nothing is more musical, than whose speech even honey is not sweeter. I recited how his mother went from town to town to select a worthy place to give birth to the young god, son of Zeus, the Supreme Being, and how he was born and cradled amid the ministrations of all the goddesses, who bathed him in the running stream and fed him with nectar and ambrosia from Olympus. Then I recited the lines which picture Apollo bursting his bands, leaping forth from his cradle, and spreading his wings like a swan, soaring sun-ward, declaring that he had come to announce to mortals the will of God. "Is it possible," I asked, "that all this is pure fabrication, a fantasy of the brain, as unsubstantial as the air? No, no, Apollo is not an idol. He is a god, and the son of a god. The whole Greek world will bear me witness that I am telling the truth." Then I looked at my guide to see what impression this outburst of sincere enthusiasm had produced upon him, and I saw a cold smile upon his lips that cut me to the heart. It seemed as if he wished to say to me, "You poor deluded pagan! You are not intelligent enough to know that Homer was only a mortal after all, and that he was writing a play in which he manufactured the gods of whom he sang -- that these gods existed only in his imagination, and that today they are as dead as is their inventer -- the poet."

By this time we stood at the entrance of a large edifice which my guide said was "the House of God." As we walked in I saw innumerable little lights blinking and winking all over the spacious interior. There were, besides, pictures, altars and images all around me. The air was heavy with incense; a number of men in gorgeous vestments were passing to and fro, bowing and kneeling before the various lights and images. The audience was upon its knees enveloped in silence -- a silence so solemn that it awed me. Observing my anxiety to understand the meaning of all this, my guide took me aside and in a whisper told me that the people were celebrating the anniversary of the birthday of their beautiful Savior -- Jesus, the Son of God.

"So was Apollo the son of God," I replied, thinking perhaps that after all we might find ourselves in agreement with one another.

"Forget Apollo," he said, with a suggestion of severity in his voice. "There is no such person. He was only an idol. If you were to search for Apollo in all the universe you would never find any one answering to his name or description. Jesus," he resumed, "is the Son of God. He came to our earth and was born of a virgin." Again I was tempted to tell my guide that that was how Apollo became incarnate; but I restrained myself.

"Then Jesus grew up to be a man," continued my guide, "performing unheard-of wonders, such as treading the seas, giving sight, hearing and speech to the blind, the deaf and the dumb, converting water into wine, feeding the multitudes miraculously, predicting coming events and resurrecting the dead."

"Of course, of your gods, too," he added, "it is claimed that they performed miracles, and of your oracles that they foretold the future, but there is this difference -- the things related of your gods are a fiction, the things told of Jesus are a fact, and the difference between Paganism and Christianity is the difference between fiction and fact."

Just then I heard a wave of murmur, like the rustling of leaves in a forest, sweep over the bowed audience. I turned about and unconsciously, my Greek curiosity impelling me, I pushed forward toward where the greater candle lights were blazing. I felt that perhaps the commotion in the house was the announcement that the God Jesus was about to make his appearance, and I wanted to see him. I wanted to touch him, or, if the crowd were too large to allow me that privilege, I wanted, at least, to hear his voice. I, who had never seen a god, never touched one, never heard one speak, I who had believed in Apollo without ever having known anything provable about him, I wanted to see the real God, Jesus.

But my guide placed his hand quickly upon my shoulder, and held me back.

"I want to see Jesus," I hastened, turning toward him. I said this reverently and in good faith. "Will he not be here this morning? Will he not speak to his worshippers?" I asked again. "Will he not permit them to touch him, to caress his hand, to clasp his divine feet, to inhale the ambrosial fragrance of his breath, to bask in the golden light of his eyes, to hear the music of his immaculate accents? Let me, too, see Jesus," I pleaded.

"You cannot see him," answered my guide, with a trace of embarrassment in his voice. "He does not show himself any more."

I was too much surprised at this to make any immediate reply.

"For the last two thousand years," my guide continued, "it has not pleased Jesus to show himself to any one; neither has he been heard from for the same number of years."

"For two thousand years no one has either seen or heard Jesus?" I asked, my eyes filled with wonder and my voice quivering with excitement.

"No," he answered.

"Would not that, then," I ventured to ask, impatiently, "make Jesus as much of an idol as Apollo? And are not these people on their knees before a god of whose existence they are as much in the dark as were the Greeks of fair Apollo, and of whose past they have only rumors such as Homer reports of our Olympian gods -- as idolatrous as the Athenians? What would you say," I asked my guide, "if I were to demand that you should produce Jesus and prove him to my eyes and ears as you have asked me to produce and prove Apollo? What is the difference between a ceremony performed in honor of Apollo and one performed in honor of Jesus, since it is as impossible to give oracular demonstration of the existence of the one as of the other? If Jesus is alive and a god, and Apollo is an idol and dead, what is the evidence, since the one is as invisible, as inaccessible, and as unproducible as the other? And, if faith that Jesus is a god proves him a god, why will not faith in Apollo make him a god? But if worshipping Jesus, whom for the best part of the last two thousand years no man has seen, heard or touched; if building temples to him, burning incense upon his altars, bowing at his shrine and calling him "God," is not idolatry, neither is it idolatry to kindle fire upon the luminous altars of the Greek Apollo, -- God of the dawn, master of the enchanted lyre -- he with the bow and arrow tipped with fire! I am not denying," I said, "that Jesus ever lived. He may have been alive two thousand years ago, but if he has not been heard from since, if the same thing that happened to the people living at the time he lived has happened to him, namely -- if he is dead, then you are worshipping the dead, which fact stamps your religion as idolatrous."

And, then, remembering what he had said to me about the Greek mythology being beautiful but not true, I said to him: "Your temples are indeed gorgeous and costly; your music is grand your altars are superb; your litany is exquisite; your chants are melting; your incense, and bells and flowers, your gold and silver vessels are all in rare taste, and I dare say your dogmas are subtle and your preachers eloquent, but your religion has one fault -- it is not true"

M. M. Mangasarian

/end thread

[Grizo406]

[D1B]

Now now... Joe
Please don't act like there hasn't been centuries of misdirection, concealment and flat out cover-ups in regards to the actual facts surrounding Jesus. So for whatever reason the church consensus apologists scholars and "TEAM JESUS" put forth... it's still ALL UP FOR DEBATE

I'm sorry, but there have been far too much in the way of shenanigans and clouded maneuverings to act like you're acting - as though - you have the facts and everybody else is a dullard

If you want to discuss the Jesus life story and whether it was embellished, fine. Plenty of reasons to have that discussion.

If you want to claim that the Jesus life story was based on pagan myths (based on a studious review of internet sources ), sorry. The claim that resurrection story is based on similar pagan accounts is a fabrication.

If you want to claim Jesus never existed, sorry. That's a frivolous claim.

By education most have been misled,
So they believe because they were so bred;
The priest continues what the nurse began,
And thus the child imposes on the man.


Dryden

[JoltinJoe]

If you want to discuss the Jesus life story and whether it was embellished, fine. Plenty of reasons to have that discussion.

If you want to claim that the Jesus life story was based on pagan myths (based on a studious review of internet sources ), sorry. The claim that resurrection story is based on similar pagan accounts is a fabrication.

If you want to claim Jesus never existed, sorry. That's a frivolous claim.

By education most have been misled,
So they believe because they were so bred;
The priest continues what the nurse began,
And thus the child imposes on the man.


Dryden

I love when this single portion of this poem is cited out of context.

Uh, Dryden was a convert to Catholicism who wrote this poem to explain his conversion. The poem in question, The Hind and the Panther, was 2600 line poem involving (among other things) a debate by the characters over the merits of faith. In this line, one of the characters accuses people of faith of being --as you might call it -- brainwashed into faith by nurture and education.

Suffice to say the poem, when read it its entirety, includes a rejection of this accusation.

Dryden paid a swift price for his conversion to Catholicism in Anglican England. He was immediately stripped of his title as poet laureate, and was subject to overt hostility by the Parliamentary class, which had previously embraced him. He was further subject to double taxation for publicly renouncing the state religion. In earlier times, Dryden would have been beheaded, but fortunately by his time, the era of Anglican violence toward Catholics had come to a merciful end.

[LeadBolt]

I'm confused, did you just say that the only reason that Christianity spread was because it was documented? I could have sworn that a part of the criticism earlier in this thread was because 1). there are no independent sources from the time (which was refuted with authors); 2). the Christian sources were inaccurate because of the time that had lapsed between the written documentation and the event; 3). that the translation of the texts were inaccurate and changed the meaning.

If the only reason it spread was because it was written down, how did it survive until it was written down if it wasn't written down at the time and wouldn't the adherents have noticed the change from translation errors?

Seems to happen a lot. None of your points are mutually exclusive so I'm not sure what it is you're confused about..?
.

I'm confused by the circular arguments and lack of facts you and D present. They are even sillier than those presented by Dawkins in "The Blind Watchmaker" and seem to come down to there was no Jesus because I don't want there to have been one.

[houndawg]

Seems to happen a lot. None of your points are mutually exclusive so I'm not sure what it is you're confused about..?
.

I'm confused by the circular arguments and lack of facts you and D present. They are even sillier than those presented by Dawkins in "The Blind Watchmaker" and seem to come down to there was no Jesus because I don't want there to have been one.

I didn't say he didn't exist, I said there are no first hand accounts of this person who was evidently a near-unknown during his own time. Perhaps he existed, perhaps he didn't. Same with Apollo.

[JoltinJoe]

A PARABLE

I am today twenty-five hundred years old. I have been dead for nearly as many years. My place of birth was Athens; my grave was not far from those of Xenophon and Plato, within view of the white glory of Athens and the shimmering waters of the Aegean sea.
After sleeping in my grave for many centuries I awoke suddenly -- I cannot tell how nor why -- and was transported by a force beyond my control to this new day and this new city. I arrived here at daybreak, when the sky was still dull and drowsy. As I approached the city I heard bells ringing, and a little later I found the streets astir with throngs of well dressed people in family groups wending their way hither and thither. Evidently they were not going to work, for they were accompanied by their children in their best clothes, and a pleasant expression was upon their faces.

"This must be a day of festival and worship, devoted to one of their gods," I murmured to myself

Looking about me I saw a gentleman in a neat black dress, smiling, and his hand extended to me with great cordiality. He must have realized I was a stranger and wished to tender his hospitality to me. I accepted it gratefully. I clasped his hand. He pressed mine. We gazed for a moment into each other's eyes. He understood my bewilderment amid my novel surroundings, and offered to enlighten me. He explained to me the ringing of the bells and meaning of the holiday crowds moving in the streets. It was Sunday -- Sunday before Christmas, and the people were going to "the House of God."

"Of course you are going there, too," I said to my friendly guide.

"Yes," he answered, "I conduct the worship. I am a priest."

"A priest of Apollo?" I interrogated.

"No, no," he replied, raising his hand to command silence, "Apollo is not a god; he was only an idol."

"Am idol?" I whispered, taken by surprise.

"I perceive you are a Greek," he said to me, "and the Greeks," he continued, "notwithstanding their distinguished accomplishments, were an idolatrous people. They worshipped gods that did not exist. They built temples to divinities which were merely empty names -- empty names," he repeated. "Apollo and Athene -- and the entire Olympian lot were no more than inventions of the fancy."

"But the Greeks loved their gods," I protested, my heart clamoring in my breast.

"They were not gods, they were idols, and the difference between a god and an idol is this: an idol is a thing; God is a living being. When you cannot prove the existence of your god, when you have never seen him, nor heard his voice, nor touched him -- when you have nothing provable about him, he is an idol. Have you seen Apollo? Have you heard him? Have you touched him?"

"No," I said, in a low voice.

"Do you know of any one who has?"

I had to admit that I did not. "He was an idol, then, and not a god."

"But many of us Greeks," I said, "have felt Apollo in our hearts and have been inspired by him."

"You imagine you have," returned my guide. "If he were really divine be would be living to this day.

"Is he, then, dead?" I asked.

"He never lived; and for the last two thousand years or more his temple has been a heap of ruins."

I wept to hear that Apollo, the god of light and music, was no more -- that his fair temple had fallen into ruins and the fire upon his altar had been extinguished; then, wiping a tear from my eyes, I said, "Oh, but our gods were fair and beautiful; our religion was rich and picturesque. It made the Greeks a nation of poets, orators, artists, warriors, thinkers. It made Athens a city of light; it created the beautiful, the true, the good -- yes, our religion was divine."

"It had only one fault"' interrupted my guide.

"What was that?" I inquired, without knowing what his answer would be.

"It was not true."

"But I still believe in Apollo," I exclaimed; "he is not dead, I know he is alive."

"Prove it," he said to me; then, pausing for a moment, "if you produce him," he said, "we shall all fall down and worship him. Produce Apollo and be shall be our god."

"Produce him!" I whispered to myself. "What blasphemy!" Then, taking heart, I told my guide how more than once I had felt Apollo's radiant presence in my heart, and told him of the immortal lines of Homer concerning the divine Apollo. "Do you doubt Homer?" I said to him; "Homer, the inspired bard? Homer, whose ink-well was as big as the sea; whose imperishable page was Time? Homer, whose every word was a drop of light?" Then I proceeded to quote from Homer's Iliad, the Greek Bible, worshipped by all the Hellenes as the rarest Manuscript between heaven and earth. I quoted his description of Apollo, than whose lyre nothing is more musical, than whose speech even honey is not sweeter. I recited how his mother went from town to town to select a worthy place to give birth to the young god, son of Zeus, the Supreme Being, and how he was born and cradled amid the ministrations of all the goddesses, who bathed him in the running stream and fed him with nectar and ambrosia from Olympus. Then I recited the lines which picture Apollo bursting his bands, leaping forth from his cradle, and spreading his wings like a swan, soaring sun-ward, declaring that he had come to announce to mortals the will of God. "Is it possible," I asked, "that all this is pure fabrication, a fantasy of the brain, as unsubstantial as the air? No, no, Apollo is not an idol. He is a god, and the son of a god. The whole Greek world will bear me witness that I am telling the truth." Then I looked at my guide to see what impression this outburst of sincere enthusiasm had produced upon him, and I saw a cold smile upon his lips that cut me to the heart. It seemed as if he wished to say to me, "You poor deluded pagan! You are not intelligent enough to know that Homer was only a mortal after all, and that he was writing a play in which he manufactured the gods of whom he sang -- that these gods existed only in his imagination, and that today they are as dead as is their inventer -- the poet."

By this time we stood at the entrance of a large edifice which my guide said was "the House of God." As we walked in I saw innumerable little lights blinking and winking all over the spacious interior. There were, besides, pictures, altars and images all around me. The air was heavy with incense; a number of men in gorgeous vestments were passing to and fro, bowing and kneeling before the various lights and images. The audience was upon its knees enveloped in silence -- a silence so solemn that it awed me. Observing my anxiety to understand the meaning of all this, my guide took me aside and in a whisper told me that the people were celebrating the anniversary of the birthday of their beautiful Savior -- Jesus, the Son of God.

"So was Apollo the son of God," I replied, thinking perhaps that after all we might find ourselves in agreement with one another.

"Forget Apollo," he said, with a suggestion of severity in his voice. "There is no such person. He was only an idol. If you were to search for Apollo in all the universe you would never find any one answering to his name or description. Jesus," he resumed, "is the Son of God. He came to our earth and was born of a virgin." Again I was tempted to tell my guide that that was how Apollo became incarnate; but I restrained myself.

"Then Jesus grew up to be a man," continued my guide, "performing unheard-of wonders, such as treading the seas, giving sight, hearing and speech to the blind, the deaf and the dumb, converting water into wine, feeding the multitudes miraculously, predicting coming events and resurrecting the dead."

"Of course, of your gods, too," he added, "it is claimed that they performed miracles, and of your oracles that they foretold the future, but there is this difference -- the things related of your gods are a fiction, the things told of Jesus are a fact, and the difference between Paganism and Christianity is the difference between fiction and fact."

Just then I heard a wave of murmur, like the rustling of leaves in a forest, sweep over the bowed audience. I turned about and unconsciously, my Greek curiosity impelling me, I pushed forward toward where the greater candle lights were blazing. I felt that perhaps the commotion in the house was the announcement that the God Jesus was about to make his appearance, and I wanted to see him. I wanted to touch him, or, if the crowd were too large to allow me that privilege, I wanted, at least, to hear his voice. I, who had never seen a god, never touched one, never heard one speak, I who had believed in Apollo without ever having known anything provable about him, I wanted to see the real God, Jesus.

But my guide placed his hand quickly upon my shoulder, and held me back.

"I want to see Jesus," I hastened, turning toward him. I said this reverently and in good faith. "Will he not be here this morning? Will he not speak to his worshippers?" I asked again. "Will he not permit them to touch him, to caress his hand, to clasp his divine feet, to inhale the ambrosial fragrance of his breath, to bask in the golden light of his eyes, to hear the music of his immaculate accents? Let me, too, see Jesus," I pleaded.

"You cannot see him," answered my guide, with a trace of embarrassment in his voice. "He does not show himself any more."

I was too much surprised at this to make any immediate reply.

"For the last two thousand years," my guide continued, "it has not pleased Jesus to show himself to any one; neither has he been heard from for the same number of years."

"For two thousand years no one has either seen or heard Jesus?" I asked, my eyes filled with wonder and my voice quivering with excitement.

"No," he answered.

"Would not that, then," I ventured to ask, impatiently, "make Jesus as much of an idol as Apollo? And are not these people on their knees before a god of whose existence they are as much in the dark as were the Greeks of fair Apollo, and of whose past they have only rumors such as Homer reports of our Olympian gods -- as idolatrous as the Athenians? What would you say," I asked my guide, "if I were to demand that you should produce Jesus and prove him to my eyes and ears as you have asked me to produce and prove Apollo? What is the difference between a ceremony performed in honor of Apollo and one performed in honor of Jesus, since it is as impossible to give oracular demonstration of the existence of the one as of the other? If Jesus is alive and a god, and Apollo is an idol and dead, what is the evidence, since the one is as invisible, as inaccessible, and as unproducible as the other? And, if faith that Jesus is a god proves him a god, why will not faith in Apollo make him a god? But if worshipping Jesus, whom for the best part of the last two thousand years no man has seen, heard or touched; if building temples to him, burning incense upon his altars, bowing at his shrine and calling him "God," is not idolatry, neither is it idolatry to kindle fire upon the luminous altars of the Greek Apollo, -- God of the dawn, master of the enchanted lyre -- he with the bow and arrow tipped with fire! I am not denying," I said, "that Jesus ever lived. He may have been alive two thousand years ago, but if he has not been heard from since, if the same thing that happened to the people living at the time he lived has happened to him, namely -- if he is dead, then you are worshipping the dead, which fact stamps your religion as idolatrous."

And, then, remembering what he had said to me about the Greek mythology being beautiful but not true, I said to him: "Your temples are indeed gorgeous and costly; your music is grand your altars are superb; your litany is exquisite; your chants are melting; your incense, and bells and flowers, your gold and silver vessels are all in rare taste, and I dare say your dogmas are subtle and your preachers eloquent, but your religion has one fault -- it is not true"

M. M. Mangasarian

/end thread

Cool story, Hansel.

But the entire point of the story is deflated by the fact that Apollo is a demonstrable myth. Jesus actually existed, who eyewitnesses claimed was risen from the dead.

Telling stories like this only impresses the like-minded. Others see the inconsistency of comparing a genuine person with a myth, and will scroll on behind, unimpressed. It's funny that atheists just don't understand religious people have already resolved all these "issues" and long ago moved past them. And then atheists raise the issues like they're genius and are bringing up things religious people never thought of or considered.

Myopia. You're in the cult of internet atheism, so no one expects you to understand.

[mrklean]

What I'm saying is that the claim that resurrection account of the Gospel was "stolen" from pagan myths is not true and is generally not taken seriously by scholars. In fact, these pagan stories do not pre-date Christ; the pagans "molded" their existing gods (like Mithra) to fit the Christ story when they saw how popular Christianity had become. There is NO account of Mithra being raised from the dead until after the advent of Christianity. While it is true that many of these gods pre-dated Christ, their resurrection stories were molded after Christ.

Claims that other gods, like Ishtar, were said to have been raised from the dead, are distorted. Some years, ago a credential historian, Richard Carrier, examined the 16 pagan gods claimed to be versions of the resurrection story, and concluded that only two of the texts cited in support of these claims pre-dated Christ: Zalmoxis and Ishtar. In other words, the vast majority of these resurrection stories were created after Christ and then applied to existing gods.

Moreover, other historians have criticized Carrier for misconstruing texts related to Zalmoxis and Ishtar, claiming there is no textual support that either was executed or crucified prior to "becoming immortal." The internet chatter about Zalmoxis and Ishtar be models for the resurrection is based on discredited translations of Carrier.

Jonathan Smith (a professor at the University of Chicago) has written: "...it is now held that the majority of the gods so denoted appear to have died but not returned; there is death but no rebirth or resurrection. What evidence was relied on by previous scholarship for the putative resurrection can be shown, it is claimed, to be based on a misinterpretation of the documents, or on late texts from the Christian era (frequently by Christians) which reveal an interpretatio Christiana of another religion's myths and rituals, or a borrowing of the Christian motif, at a late stage, by the religions themselves...." (J. Z. Smith, Drudgery Divine, page 101).

So I'll stand on the ground established by a brilliant scholar revered in this field of history.

Bullshit. Name/college dropping don't an argument make.

There are brilliant people who are full of **** and brainwashed, just like you.

Without reliable accounts and numerous parallels to other, preexisting, myths you have to add Jesus to the heaving shitpile of fabricated deities. There is just as much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as there is for Jesus.

4 vastly dissimilar gospels is all you got. That's it and it ain't ****.

If Jesus was not real, why did people die for him. For the most part, people will not die over a lie. There is a roman record of a trail of a Jew for the same crime. But his name is not placed in the record. But in Roman times, the names of the criminals was vever recorded. Remember, he was tried, convected ans kill in a day. But ill go back to my first statement, People will not follow a lie. People died for Hitler, but he was real. Why would people follow a made up person then die for that person?

[kalm]

Bullshit. Name/college dropping don't an argument make.

There are brilliant people who are full of **** and brainwashed, just like you.

Without reliable accounts and numerous parallels to other, preexisting, myths you have to add Jesus to the heaving shitpile of fabricated deities. There is just as much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as there is for Jesus.

4 vastly dissimilar gospels is all you got. That's it and it ain't ****.

If Jesus was not real, why did people die for him. For the most part, people will not die over a lie. There is a roman record of a trail of a Jew for the same crime. But his name is not placed in the record. But in Roman times, the names of the criminals was vever recorded. Remember, he was tried, convected ans kill in a day. But ill go back to my first statement, People will not follow a lie. People died for Hitler, but he was real. Why would people follow a made up person then die for that person?

People will not die or follow a lie? You can't be serious.

[JoltinJoe]

There is just as much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as there is for Jesus.

Whoa! there mister...
Are you suggesting Apollo doesn't exist? Because there are well documented sightings of Apollo (fact)
Also Christopher Columbus has two documented sightings of Mermaids (fact)

These things can't be disputed ^ they are documented

Lets just stick with the facts people

You lose credibility when you imply that that there is much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as that of Jesus. Geez, only on the internet ...

[houndawg]

Cool story, Hansel.

But the entire point of the story is deflated by the fact that Apollo is a demonstrable myth. Jesus actually existed, who eyewitnesses claimed was risen from the dead.

Telling stories like this only impresses the like-minded. Others see the inconsistency of comparing a genuine person with a myth, and will scroll on behind, unimpressed. It's funny that atheists just don't understand religious people have already resolved all these "issues" and long ago moved past them. And then atheists raise the issues like they're genius and are bringing up things religious people never thought of or considered.

Myopia. You're in the cult of internet atheism, so no one expects you to understand.

No. Somebody told somebody who told somebody something about he rose from the dead. Not an eyewitness account. And don't even get started on scribes adding their own version (like the last 12 verses of Mark) when they made a copy.

Fact is, if this person existed and rose bodily, (and therefore has mass and is constrained by c), from the grave he is no more than 2,000 light years from here and most likely not even a quarter of that distance. Our instruments are getting sensitive enough that we may be able to find him within the next decade.

[Ibanez]

Says the man that would rather act like a child instead of growing as a human and improving his communication abilities.

Back to the original Question. Yes it would be great if Jesus had a Wife. In fact, there is a Book that is not in the Cannon Bible, that states that he was Married to Marry Magdala. Its called the Gospel of Mary. lets see what I man has to say about this.

So you are saying your other post is wrong, got it. Him being married has no bearing, IMO, on his "legacy."
Who is "I man."

Spoiler: show

Btw, it's Canon of Scripture and Mary Magdalene.

[Ibanez]

No one knows on what day jesus was born or died. The dates we use now coincide with celestial events - pagans did the same **** and we should put as much faith and scrutiny into the birth of christ that we do Apollo.

Well, just to nitpick on one point there, why would we have reliable data on his date of birth? We don't know the exact date of birth of numerous Roman emperors, some that came hundreds of years after Jesus, so why would we know the date of birth of someone born into poverty centuries before the nobility we don't know the dates of?

True, we can only guess by the descriptions in the Bible that Jesus was born in the spring (swaddling clothes, shepherds in the fields at night.)

But hey, I thought it was celebrated in December. What gives?

[Ibanez]

There is just as much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as there is for Jesus.

Whoa! there mister...
Are you suggesting Apollo doesn't exist? Because there are well documented sightings of Apollo (fact)
Also Christopher Columbus has two documented sightings of Mermaids (fact)

These things can't be disputed ^ they are documented

Lets just stick with the facts people

What about Loch Ness Monster and Big Foot?

[CAA Flagship]

A PARABLE

A PARABOLA

[Vidav]

Bullshit. Name/college dropping don't an argument make.

There are brilliant people who are full of **** and brainwashed, just like you.

Without reliable accounts and numerous parallels to other, preexisting, myths you have to add Jesus to the heaving shitpile of fabricated deities. There is just as much evidence supporting the existence of Apollo as there is for Jesus.

4 vastly dissimilar gospels is all you got. That's it and it ain't ****.

If Jesus was not real, why did people die for him. For the most part, people will not die over a lie. There is a roman record of a trail of a Jew for the same crime. But his name is not placed in the record. But in Roman times, the names of the criminals was vever recorded. Remember, he was tried, convected ans kill in a day. But ill go back to my first statement, People will not follow a lie. People died for Hitler, but he was real. Why would people follow a made up person then die for that person?

Wait, what?

[Ibanez]

If Jesus was not real, why did people die for him. For the most part, people will not die over a lie. There is a roman record of a trail of a Jew for the same crime. But his name is not placed in the record. But in Roman times, the names of the criminals was vever recorded. Remember, he was tried, convected ans kill in a day. But ill go back to my first statement, People will not follow a lie. People died for Hitler, but he was real. Why would people follow a made up person then die for that person?

Wait, what?

Klean,
Millions of Jews died over the lie that they caused Germany to lose WW1 and were to blame for all of Germany's problems.

[grizzaholic]

If Jesus was not real, why did people die for him. For the most part, people will not die over a lie. There is a roman record of a trail of a Jew for the same crime. But his name is not placed in the record. But in Roman times, the names of the criminals was vever recorded. Remember, he was tried, convected ans kill in a day. But ill go back to my first statement, People will not follow a lie. People died for Hitler, but he was real. Why would people follow a made up person then die for that person?

Wait, what?

Let him go. He has been on a bender for a couple days now.

[D1B]

By education most have been misled,
So they believe because they were so bred;
The priest continues what the nurse began,
And thus the child imposes on the man.


Dryden

I love when this single portion of this poem is cited out of context.

Uh, Dryden was a convert to Catholicism who wrote this poem to explain his conversion. The poem in question, The Hind and the Panther, was 2600 line poem involving (among other things) a debate by the characters over the merits of faith. In this line, one of the characters accuses people of faith of being --as you might call it -- brainwashed into faith by nurture and education.

Suffice to say the poem, when read it its entirety, includes a rejection of this accusation.

Dryden paid a swift price for his conversion to Catholicism in Anglican England. He was immediately stripped of his title as poet laureate, and was subject to overt hostility by the Parliamentary class, which had previously embraced him. He was further subject to double taxation for publicly renouncing the state religion. In earlier times, Dryden would have been beheaded, but fortunately by his time, the era of Anglican violence toward Catholics had come to a merciful end.

This ain't court, Captain Strawman.

I know you enjoyed the parabel.

[D1B]

A PARABLE

I am today twenty-five hundred years old. I have been dead for nearly as many years. My place of birth was Athens; my grave was not far from those of Xenophon and Plato, within view of the white glory of Athens and the shimmering waters of the Aegean sea.
After sleeping in my grave for many centuries I awoke suddenly -- I cannot tell how nor why -- and was transported by a force beyond my control to this new day and this new city. I arrived here at daybreak, when the sky was still dull and drowsy. As I approached the city I heard bells ringing, and a little later I found the streets astir with throngs of well dressed people in family groups wending their way hither and thither. Evidently they were not going to work, for they were accompanied by their children in their best clothes, and a pleasant expression was upon their faces.

"This must be a day of festival and worship, devoted to one of their gods," I murmured to myself

Looking about me I saw a gentleman in a neat black dress, smiling, and his hand extended to me with great cordiality. He must have realized I was a stranger and wished to tender his hospitality to me. I accepted it gratefully. I clasped his hand. He pressed mine. We gazed for a moment into each other's eyes. He understood my bewilderment amid my novel surroundings, and offered to enlighten me. He explained to me the ringing of the bells and meaning of the holiday crowds moving in the streets. It was Sunday -- Sunday before Christmas, and the people were going to "the House of God."

"Of course you are going there, too," I said to my friendly guide.

"Yes," he answered, "I conduct the worship. I am a priest."

"A priest of Apollo?" I interrogated.

"No, no," he replied, raising his hand to command silence, "Apollo is not a god; he was only an idol."

"Am idol?" I whispered, taken by surprise.

"I perceive you are a Greek," he said to me, "and the Greeks," he continued, "notwithstanding their distinguished accomplishments, were an idolatrous people. They worshipped gods that did not exist. They built temples to divinities which were merely empty names -- empty names," he repeated. "Apollo and Athene -- and the entire Olympian lot were no more than inventions of the fancy."

"But the Greeks loved their gods," I protested, my heart clamoring in my breast.

"They were not gods, they were idols, and the difference between a god and an idol is this: an idol is a thing; God is a living being. When you cannot prove the existence of your god, when you have never seen him, nor heard his voice, nor touched him -- when you have nothing provable about him, he is an idol. Have you seen Apollo? Have you heard him? Have you touched him?"

"No," I said, in a low voice.

"Do you know of any one who has?"

I had to admit that I did not. "He was an idol, then, and not a god."

"But many of us Greeks," I said, "have felt Apollo in our hearts and have been inspired by him."

"You imagine you have," returned my guide. "If he were really divine be would be living to this day.

"Is he, then, dead?" I asked.

"He never lived; and for the last two thousand years or more his temple has been a heap of ruins."

I wept to hear that Apollo, the god of light and music, was no more -- that his fair temple had fallen into ruins and the fire upon his altar had been extinguished; then, wiping a tear from my eyes, I said, "Oh, but our gods were fair and beautiful; our religion was rich and picturesque. It made the Greeks a nation of poets, orators, artists, warriors, thinkers. It made Athens a city of light; it created the beautiful, the true, the good -- yes, our religion was divine."

"It had only one fault"' interrupted my guide.

"What was that?" I inquired, without knowing what his answer would be.

"It was not true."

"But I still believe in Apollo," I exclaimed; "he is not dead, I know he is alive."

"Prove it," he said to me; then, pausing for a moment, "if you produce him," he said, "we shall all fall down and worship him. Produce Apollo and be shall be our god."

"Produce him!" I whispered to myself. "What blasphemy!" Then, taking heart, I told my guide how more than once I had felt Apollo's radiant presence in my heart, and told him of the immortal lines of Homer concerning the divine Apollo. "Do you doubt Homer?" I said to him; "Homer, the inspired bard? Homer, whose ink-well was as big as the sea; whose imperishable page was Time? Homer, whose every word was a drop of light?" Then I proceeded to quote from Homer's Iliad, the Greek Bible, worshipped by all the Hellenes as the rarest Manuscript between heaven and earth. I quoted his description of Apollo, than whose lyre nothing is more musical, than whose speech even honey is not sweeter. I recited how his mother went from town to town to select a worthy place to give birth to the young god, son of Zeus, the Supreme Being, and how he was born and cradled amid the ministrations of all the goddesses, who bathed him in the running stream and fed him with nectar and ambrosia from Olympus. Then I recited the lines which picture Apollo bursting his bands, leaping forth from his cradle, and spreading his wings like a swan, soaring sun-ward, declaring that he had come to announce to mortals the will of God. "Is it possible," I asked, "that all this is pure fabrication, a fantasy of the brain, as unsubstantial as the air? No, no, Apollo is not an idol. He is a god, and the son of a god. The whole Greek world will bear me witness that I am telling the truth." Then I looked at my guide to see what impression this outburst of sincere enthusiasm had produced upon him, and I saw a cold smile upon his lips that cut me to the heart. It seemed as if he wished to say to me, "You poor deluded pagan! You are not intelligent enough to know that Homer was only a mortal after all, and that he was writing a play in which he manufactured the gods of whom he sang -- that these gods existed only in his imagination, and that today they are as dead as is their inventer -- the poet."

By this time we stood at the entrance of a large edifice which my guide said was "the House of God." As we walked in I saw innumerable little lights blinking and winking all over the spacious interior. There were, besides, pictures, altars and images all around me. The air was heavy with incense; a number of men in gorgeous vestments were passing to and fro, bowing and kneeling before the various lights and images. The audience was upon its knees enveloped in silence -- a silence so solemn that it awed me. Observing my anxiety to understand the meaning of all this, my guide took me aside and in a whisper told me that the people were celebrating the anniversary of the birthday of their beautiful Savior -- Jesus, the Son of God.

"So was Apollo the son of God," I replied, thinking perhaps that after all we might find ourselves in agreement with one another.

"Forget Apollo," he said, with a suggestion of severity in his voice. "There is no such person. He was only an idol. If you were to search for Apollo in all the universe you would never find any one answering to his name or description. Jesus," he resumed, "is the Son of God. He came to our earth and was born of a virgin." Again I was tempted to tell my guide that that was how Apollo became incarnate; but I restrained myself.

"Then Jesus grew up to be a man," continued my guide, "performing unheard-of wonders, such as treading the seas, giving sight, hearing and speech to the blind, the deaf and the dumb, converting water into wine, feeding the multitudes miraculously, predicting coming events and resurrecting the dead."

"Of course, of your gods, too," he added, "it is claimed that they performed miracles, and of your oracles that they foretold the future, but there is this difference -- the things related of your gods are a fiction, the things told of Jesus are a fact, and the difference between Paganism and Christianity is the difference between fiction and fact."

Just then I heard a wave of murmur, like the rustling of leaves in a forest, sweep over the bowed audience. I turned about and unconsciously, my Greek curiosity impelling me, I pushed forward toward where the greater candle lights were blazing. I felt that perhaps the commotion in the house was the announcement that the God Jesus was about to make his appearance, and I wanted to see him. I wanted to touch him, or, if the crowd were too large to allow me that privilege, I wanted, at least, to hear his voice. I, who had never seen a god, never touched one, never heard one speak, I who had believed in Apollo without ever having known anything provable about him, I wanted to see the real God, Jesus.

But my guide placed his hand quickly upon my shoulder, and held me back.

"I want to see Jesus," I hastened, turning toward him. I said this reverently and in good faith. "Will he not be here this morning? Will he not speak to his worshippers?" I asked again. "Will he not permit them to touch him, to caress his hand, to clasp his divine feet, to inhale the ambrosial fragrance of his breath, to bask in the golden light of his eyes, to hear the music of his immaculate accents? Let me, too, see Jesus," I pleaded.

"You cannot see him," answered my guide, with a trace of embarrassment in his voice. "He does not show himself any more."

I was too much surprised at this to make any immediate reply.

"For the last two thousand years," my guide continued, "it has not pleased Jesus to show himself to any one; neither has he been heard from for the same number of years."

"For two thousand years no one has either seen or heard Jesus?" I asked, my eyes filled with wonder and my voice quivering with excitement.

"No," he answered.

"Would not that, then," I ventured to ask, impatiently, "make Jesus as much of an idol as Apollo? And are not these people on their knees before a god of whose existence they are as much in the dark as were the Greeks of fair Apollo, and of whose past they have only rumors such as Homer reports of our Olympian gods -- as idolatrous as the Athenians? What would you say," I asked my guide, "if I were to demand that you should produce Jesus and prove him to my eyes and ears as you have asked me to produce and prove Apollo? What is the difference between a ceremony performed in honor of Apollo and one performed in honor of Jesus, since it is as impossible to give oracular demonstration of the existence of the one as of the other? If Jesus is alive and a god, and Apollo is an idol and dead, what is the evidence, since the one is as invisible, as inaccessible, and as unproducible as the other? And, if faith that Jesus is a god proves him a god, why will not faith in Apollo make him a god? But if worshipping Jesus, whom for the best part of the last two thousand years no man has seen, heard or touched; if building temples to him, burning incense upon his altars, bowing at his shrine and calling him "God," is not idolatry, neither is it idolatry to kindle fire upon the luminous altars of the Greek Apollo, -- God of the dawn, master of the enchanted lyre -- he with the bow and arrow tipped with fire! I am not denying," I said, "that Jesus ever lived. He may have been alive two thousand years ago, but if he has not been heard from since, if the same thing that happened to the people living at the time he lived has happened to him, namely -- if he is dead, then you are worshipping the dead, which fact stamps your religion as idolatrous."

And, then, remembering what he had said to me about the Greek mythology being beautiful but not true, I said to him: "Your temples are indeed gorgeous and costly; your music is grand your altars are superb; your litany is exquisite; your chants are melting; your incense, and bells and flowers, your gold and silver vessels are all in rare taste, and I dare say your dogmas are subtle and your preachers eloquent, but your religion has one fault -- it is not true"

M. M. Mangasarian

/end thread

Cool story, Hansel.

But the entire point of the story is deflated by the fact that Apollo is a demonstrable myth. Jesus actually existed, who eyewitnesses claimed was risen from the dead.

Telling stories like this only impresses the like-minded. Others see the inconsistency of comparing a genuine person with a myth, and will scroll on behind, unimpressed. It's funny that atheists just don't understand religious people have already resolved all these "issues" and long ago moved past them. And then atheists raise the issues like they're genius and are bringing up things religious people never thought of or considered.

Myopia. You're in the cult of internet atheism, so no one expects you to understand.

The author brilliantly and eloquently exposed the hypocrisy of the modern, arrogant and totally delusional Christian. That you don't get it is to be expected. After all, you're deep in a bloody cult.

[JoltinJoe]

Cool story, Hansel.

But the entire point of the story is deflated by the fact that Apollo is a demonstrable myth. Jesus actually existed, who eyewitnesses claimed was risen from the dead.

Telling stories like this only impresses the like-minded. Others see the inconsistency of comparing a genuine person with a myth, and will scroll on behind, unimpressed. It's funny that atheists just don't understand religious people have already resolved all these "issues" and long ago moved past them. And then atheists raise the issues like they're genius and are bringing up things religious people never thought of or considered.

Myopia. You're in the cult of internet atheism, so no one expects you to understand.

The author brilliantly and eloquently exposed the hypocrisy of the modern, arrogant and totally delusional Christian. That you don't get it is to be expected. After all, you're deep in a bloody cult.

Myopia. Only to a person already brainwashed into the author's viewpoint. I've long ago deeply considered all of his nonsense and moved past it.

No one expects you to get it. You're in the cult of internet-based atheism.

As for the word "cult":

[JoltinJoe]

Cool story, Hansel.

But the entire point of the story is deflated by the fact that Apollo is a demonstrable myth. Jesus actually existed, who eyewitnesses claimed was risen from the dead.

Telling stories like this only impresses the like-minded. Others see the inconsistency of comparing a genuine person with a myth, and will scroll on behind, unimpressed. It's funny that atheists just don't understand religious people have already resolved all these "issues" and long ago moved past them. And then atheists raise the issues like they're genius and are bringing up things religious people never thought of or considered.

Myopia. You're in the cult of internet atheism, so no one expects you to understand.

No. Somebody told somebody who told somebody something about he rose from the dead. Not an eyewitness account. And don't even get started on scribes adding their own version (like the last 12 verses of Mark) when they made a copy.

Fact is, if this person existed and rose bodily, (and therefore has mass and is constrained by c), from the grave he is no more than 2,000 light years from here and most likely not even a quarter of that distance. Our instruments are getting sensitive enough that we may be able to find him within the next decade.

First of all, simply because testimonies are recorded by another doesn't change the fact the testimonies given are based on eye-witness accounts.

Second, your Carl Sagan line is ridiculous. It is based on the assumption that all dimensions of reality are perceptible to humans. Nice try.

[kalm]

The author brilliantly and eloquently exposed the hypocrisy of the modern, arrogant and totally delusional Christian. That you don't get it is to be expected. After all, you're deep in a bloody cult.

Myopia. Only to a person already brainwashed into the author's viewpoint. I've long ago deeply considered all of his nonsense and moved past it.

No one expects you to get it. You're in the cult of internet-based atheism.

As for the word "cult":

Cult doesn't necessarily involve size.

cult
kəlt/Submit
noun
1.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"

[D1B]

The author brilliantly and eloquently exposed the hypocrisy of the modern, arrogant and totally delusional Christian. That you don't get it is to be expected. After all, you're deep in a bloody cult.

Myopia. Only to a person already brainwashed into the author's viewpoint. I've long ago deeply considered all of his nonsense and moved past it.

No one expects you to get it. You're in the cult of internet-based atheism.

As for the word "cult":

Hits people like you (arrogant and delusional) straight in the chest. I Can tell because you're lashing out, calling names and employing futile school yard debate schemes.

Praise Apollo!