5 Middle East Myths

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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

UNI88 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:

Explain how exactly Israel and the US align..?
I'm curious - because that one seems as one sided as any relationship this country has

:coffee:
Overlap not align ... i.e. we have some shared interests such as a nuclear armed Iran is a concern to both nations (although it's a much more immediate concern to Israel).

Ya..
but we can manage Iran's nuclear ambitions all by ourselves
Okay so we have ONE shared interest (that requires zero interaction between nations)

:coffee: (so it is indeed a Myth) NEXT
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:we can manage Iran's nuclear ambitions all by ourselves
LOL

now its my turn to laugh

REALLY? With the feckless policy we currently employ against Iran?

Darius III will get the bomb Clitz- in spite of everything we try. The only thing we could do to stop it would be to bomb them silly and completely destroy their society.

The X hour for preventing Iran from
getting the bomb happened sometime in oh, 1995. Now all we can do is slow them
down.

Yeah I like where this is going- maybe this ultimate failure of American supremacy will convince the Vatican and Luxembourg to militarize in response to the fact that the World Police TM dont have the balls to control their own internal savages.... much less prevent a retrograde islamic patrityranny from developing a nuclear weapon.

We are the worst most worthless excuse for a fvcking world power since Nubia. We deserve to die in a mudhole and be eaten by starving dogs.
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:we can manage Iran's nuclear ambitions all by ourselves
LOL

now its my turn to laugh

REALLY? With the feckless policy we currently employ against Iran?

Darius III will get the bomb Clitz- in spite of everything we try. The only thing we could do to stop it would be to bomb them silly and completely destroy their society.

The X hour for preventing Iran from
getting the bomb happened sometime in oh, 1995. Now all we can do is slow them
down.

Yeah I like where this is going- maybe this ultimate failure of American supremacy will convince the Vatican and Luxembourg to militarize in response to the fact that the World Police TM dont have the balls to control their own internal savages.... much less prevent a retrograde islamic patrityranny from developing a nuclear weapon.

We are the worst most worthless excuse for a fvcking world power since Nubia. We deserve to die in a mudhole and be eaten by starving dogs.
The world NEEDS Iran to have the bomb.... :nod:

Process that for a few seconds
Humanity is either going to make it through this religious hurdle or it isn't
And you can't keep the bomb away from the zealots forever - why not now..?

When the entire earth and virtually all factions can easily destroy each other
Only then can we see if we are apes or humans - if we are worth saving or destined to destroy ourselves

What are we..?
If we truly are just savages and idiots then now is a great time
If they want to "usher in the end days" then I call their bluff - go ahead destroy the world - its your move

:coffee:
Q: Name something that offends Republicans?
A: The actual teachings of Jesus
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by 89Hen »

UNI88 wrote:5 I'm not sure about ... are we making a bigger deal out of it than we need to? If we stopped meddling in Islamic affairs and took away their "satan", would the terrorists redirect their hatred toward each other and their governments (Sunni vs. Shiite)? Is terrorism something that the entrenched powers in DC and elsewhere use as a bogeyman (replacing the Soviet Union) to feed special interests and keep voters from realizing how crappy of a job they're doing in leading the country?
If you had to err on one side of security, which would you choose?
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by 89Hen »

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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
LOL

now its my turn to laugh

REALLY? With the feckless policy we currently employ against Iran?

Darius III will get the bomb Clitz- in spite of everything we try. The only thing we could do to stop it would be to bomb them silly and completely destroy their society.

The X hour for preventing Iran from
getting the bomb happened sometime in oh, 1995. Now all we can do is slow them
down.

Yeah I like where this is going- maybe this ultimate failure of American supremacy will convince the Vatican and Luxembourg to militarize in response to the fact that the World Police TM dont have the balls to control their own internal savages.... much less prevent a retrograde islamic patrityranny from developing a nuclear weapon.

We are the worst most worthless excuse for a fvcking world power since Nubia. We deserve to die in a mudhole and be eaten by starving dogs.
The world NEEDS Iran to have the bomb.... :nod:

Process that for a few seconds
Humanity is either going to make it through this religious hurdle or it isn't
And you can't keep the bomb away from the zealots forever - why not now..?

When the entire earth and virtually all factions can easily destroy each other
Only then can we see if we are apes or humans - if we are worth saving or destined to destroy ourselves

What are we..?
If we truly are just savages and idiots then now is a great time
If they want to "usher in the end days" then I call their bluff - go ahead destroy the world - its your move

:coffee:
no no you misunderstand me

I think Iran having the bomb would be greatly beneficial to us-

we NEED a culling of the herd

it is their unchecked rise that only proves that as a species we humans still cannot control what is the worst in us, the most evil

and Im prepared to not only survive, but thrive in the post apocalyptic eschatological world that would come from that showdown between Western civilization and the retrograde fantasy that is the world Caliphate.

so bring it on

i can skin a buck, and run a trotline.......
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
The world NEEDS Iran to have the bomb.... :nod:

Process that for a few seconds
Humanity is either going to make it through this religious hurdle or it isn't
And you can't keep the bomb away from the zealots forever - why not now..?

When the entire earth and virtually all factions can easily destroy each other
Only then can we see if we are apes or humans - if we are worth saving or destined to destroy ourselves

What are we..?
If we truly are just savages and idiots then now is a great time
If they want to "usher in the end days" then I call their bluff - go ahead destroy the world - its your move

:coffee:
no no you misunderstand me

I think Iran having the bomb would be greatly beneficial to us-

we NEED a culling of the herd

it is their unchecked rise that only proves that as a species we humans still cannot control what is the worst in us, the most evil

and Im prepared to not only survive, but thrive in the post apocalyptic eschatological world that would come from that showdown between Western civilization and the retrograde fantasy that is the world Caliphate.

so bring it on

i can skin a buck, and run a trotline.......

This ^ Agreed...

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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by UNI88 »

89Hen wrote:
UNI88 wrote:5 I'm not sure about ... are we making a bigger deal out of it than we need to? If we stopped meddling in Islamic affairs and took away their "satan", would the terrorists redirect their hatred toward each other and their governments (Sunni vs. Shiite)? Is terrorism something that the entrenched powers in DC and elsewhere use as a bogeyman (replacing the Soviet Union) to feed special interests and keep voters from realizing how crappy of a job they're doing in leading the country?
If you had to err on one side of security, which would you choose?
I don't think we should walk away from the Middle East but what we're doing now isn't working so we need to reevaluate the situation and implement some new policies/approaches rather than this neo-con "we can save the world" crap that's been shoved down our faces for 14+ years.

I also agree with Cid that we won't stop the Persians from getting the bomb. We don't have the will power to go to the lengths necessary. So we need to look at it strategically and make it take as long as possible and see if there are things we can do to monitor and manage the potential ramifications.
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Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by 89Hen »

UNI88 wrote:
89Hen wrote: If you had to err on one side of security, which would you choose?
I don't think we should walk away from the Middle East but what we're doing now isn't working so we need to reevaluate the situation and implement some new policies/approaches rather than this neo-con "we can save the world" crap that's been shoved down our faces for 14+ years.
Isn't working to prevent them from eating each other alive, but how can you say it's not working to limit terrorism to/in the US? Our worst attacks on US soil are riots after court rulings and sports team championships. Who is saying "we can save the world"?
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Chizzang wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
LOL

now its my turn to laugh

REALLY? With the feckless policy we currently employ against Iran?

Darius III will get the bomb Clitz- in spite of everything we try. The only thing we could do to stop it would be to bomb them silly and completely destroy their society.

The X hour for preventing Iran from
getting the bomb happened sometime in oh, 1995. Now all we can do is slow them
down.

Yeah I like where this is going- maybe this ultimate failure of American supremacy will convince the Vatican and Luxembourg to militarize in response to the fact that the World Police TM dont have the balls to control their own internal savages.... much less prevent a retrograde islamic patrityranny from developing a nuclear weapon.

We are the worst most worthless excuse for a fvcking world power since Nubia. We deserve to die in a mudhole and be eaten by starving dogs.
The world NEEDS Iran to have the bomb.... :nod:

Process that for a few seconds
Humanity is either going to make it through this religious hurdle or it isn't
And you can't keep the bomb away from the zealots forever - why not now..?

When the entire earth and virtually all factions can easily destroy each other
Only then can we see if we are apes or humans - if we are worth saving or destined to destroy ourselves

What are we..?
If we truly are just savages and idiots then now is a great time
If they want to "usher in the end days" then I call their bluff - go ahead destroy the world - its your move

:coffee:
A few problems with your thinking:

1) With nukes, it only takes a few savages to rid the world of a significant chunk of the non-savages.
2) Any match between the savages and anyone else needs to happen after the end of the 2016 football season in order to properly gauge the hiring of Dave Brock.
3) When the savages attack, do we have enough fencing for the Dearborn, Michigan area, and will people still be able to catch a cab at MSP?
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by kalm »

We can eliminate Iran's nuke program now...if we really wanted to. Just like we could fix banking, and end the military industrial complex. Could probably provide lower cost healthcare to all our citizens too.

Ha! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Chizzang!
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by kalm »

Nice little rant here on the illusion of debate regarding foreign policy:
Coverage of Iraq is no different, particularly in advance of periodic illegal war of aggression against it. Former U.N. Special Rapporteur on Palestine Richard Falk and author Howard Friel conducted a survey in 2004 assessing the New York Times’ pre-war coverage of Iraq in 2003. In more than 70 articles on Iraq, the Times never mentioned “UN Charter” or “international law.” The study also found “No space was accorded to the broad array of international law and world-order arguments opposing the war.” But such arguments only exist outside of Western corridors of power in Washington, London, Paris, and Tel Aviv.

This isn’t debate. Real debate is pre-empted by internal bi-partisan consensus on some basic issues: maintain a giant garrison state, shrink the state everywhere else, preference corporations over populations, restrict civil liberties to secure status quo power structures. So when it comes to Iran, Iraq, Syria and the like, the question isn’t whether to go to war, but what kind of war to fight. Hawks want bombs. Doves want sanctions. Publicans want Marines. Dems want a proxy army of jihadis. They both want Academi mercenaries. (Obama hired out the gang formerly known as Blackwater to the CIA for a cool $250 million.) And when we’ve finished off ISIS, the question won’t be about an exit strategy, but whether to head west to Damascus or east to Tehran.

The question isn’t whether to cut aid to Israel given its serial criminality in Gaza and the West Bank, but how fast settlements can annex the Jordan Valley without attracting more international opprobrium. (International law, again, set aside.)

On the domestic front, the question isn’t whether to have single payer or private healthcare, but whether citizens should be forced to purchase private schemes or simply admonished to do so. The question isn’t whether or not to keep or strengthen New Deal entitlements, but how swiftly they can be eviscerated. The question isn’t whether or not to surveil the body politic, but where to store the data, and whether or not to harvest two-hop or three-hop metadata. The question isn’t whether or not to hold authors of torture programs accountable, but how much of the damning torture report to redact so as to leave them unprosecutable. The question isn’t whether or not to regulate Wall Street but, as slimy oil industry lawyer Bennett Holiday put it in Syriana, to create “the illusion of due diligence.”

All this is not to say the MSM isn’t aware of alternative viewpoints. It is, but it only acknowledges them when they can be used to justify a foregone conclusion. In the past year, the MSM has nearly become infatuated with international law. Friel has tracked the paper of record’s response to the Ukrainian fiasco. What did he find? When Russia annexed Crimea, the Times inveighed against the bloodless “invasion” as a gross violation of international law. Eight different editorials over the next few months hyperventilated about global security, castigating Russian President Vladimir Putin for his “illegal” violation and his “contempt for,” “flouting,” “blatant transgression,” and “breach” of international law. Calls were sounded to “protect” against such cynical disregard of global consensus. Western allies needed to busy themselves “reasserting international law” and exacting heavy penalties on Russia for “riding roughshod” over such sacred precepts as “Ukrainian sovereignty.”

Quite so, as Washington supports the toppling of democratically elected governments in Kiev and Tegucigalpa, sends drones to ride “roughshod” over Yemeni, Pakistani, Somali and other poorly defended borders; and deploys thousands of troops, advisors, and American-armed jihadis to patrol the sectarian abattoirs of Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. But better to exonerate ourselves on those counts and chalk it up to the fog of war. After all, we follow the law of exceptionalism, clearly defined by Richard Falk as, “Accountability for the weak and vulnerable, discretion for the strong and mighty.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/02/ ... of-debate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:We can eliminate Iran's nuke program now...if we really wanted to. Just like we could fix banking, and end the military industrial complex. Could probably provide lower cost healthcare to all our citizens too.

Ha! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Chizzang!
I agree we could...
But that wasn't my point - that was your point
My ultimate point was the Earths civilization making it "past" the evolutionary hurdle of "end times" Religions
We're not out of the woods yet


:coffee:
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:We can eliminate Iran's nuke program now...if we really wanted to. Just like we could fix banking, and end the military industrial complex. Could probably provide lower cost healthcare to all our citizens too.

Ha! Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Chizzang!
I agree we could...
But that wasn't my point - that was your point
My ultimate point was the Earths civilization making it "past" the evolutionary hurdle of "end times" Religions
We're not out of the woods yet


:coffee:
And Iran (religion of peace) getting the bomb is good for the world? So you're an end-timer...who knew? :suspicious:
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
I agree we could...
But that wasn't my point - that was your point
My ultimate point was the Earths civilization making it "past" the evolutionary hurdle of "end times" Religions
We're not out of the woods yet


:coffee:
And Iran (religion of peace) getting the bomb is good for the world? So you're an end-timer...who knew? :suspicious:
I call their bluff
which is distinctly different
than believing: Jesus and the Angels will descend down from heaven and usher in judgement day
(or 72 virgins)

:nod:
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
And Iran (religion of peace) getting the bomb is good for the world? So you're an end-timer...who knew? :suspicious:
I call their bluff
which is distinctly different
than believing: Jesus and the Angels will descend down from heaven and usher in judgement day
(or 72 virgins)

:nod:
So if they get the bomb and don't use it, there bluff has been called?
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
I call their bluff
which is distinctly different
than believing: Jesus and the Angels will descend down from heaven and usher in judgement day
(or 72 virgins)

:nod:
So if they get the bomb and don't use it, there bluff has been called?
Indeed,
If we all don;t destroy each other
Its a sign that we've "progressed" as a global species

If not - why not now..?
We can't be held hostage forever by the crazies on this planet
If you're going to blow the place up - then blow it up..!!!
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by kalm »

Chizzang wrote:
kalm wrote:
So if they get the bomb and don't use it, there bluff has been called?
Indeed,
If we all don;t destroy each other
Its a sign that we've "progressed" as a global species

If not - why not now..?
We can't be held hostage forever by the crazies on this planet
If you're going to blow the place up - then blow it up..!!!
I'd rather catch a few more fish and watch Eastern win a few more chippers with my boys if you don't mind.

:coffee:
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Cap'n Cat »

Oil. Money. Conks.
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by ASUG8 »

Cap'n Cat wrote:Oil. Money. Conks.
You could have just stopped at oil and money. Things have been no different since 2008.
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Chizzang »

kalm wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Indeed,
If we all don;t destroy each other
Its a sign that we've "progressed" as a global species

If not - why not now..?
We can't be held hostage forever by the crazies on this planet
If you're going to blow the place up - then blow it up..!!!
I'd rather catch a few more fish and watch Eastern win a few more chippers with my boys if you don't mind.

:coffee:

I'm on your side...
I don't want the world to end - nor do I believe the end times religious crap

That said:
I won't live in fear either - I don't care who has the bomb
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Cap'n Cat »

ASUG8 wrote:
Cap'n Cat wrote:Oil. Money. Conks.
You could have just stopped at oil and money. Things have been no different since 2008.
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by YoUDeeMan »

kalm wrote:Nice little rant here on the illusion of debate regarding foreign policy:
Coverage of Iraq is no different, particularly in advance of periodic illegal war of aggression against it. Former U.N. Special Rapporteur on Palestine Richard Falk and author Howard Friel conducted a survey in 2004 assessing the New York Times’ pre-war coverage of Iraq in 2003. In more than 70 articles on Iraq, the Times never mentioned “UN Charter” or “international law.” The study also found “No space was accorded to the broad array of international law and world-order arguments opposing the war.” But such arguments only exist outside of Western corridors of power in Washington, London, Paris, and Tel Aviv.

This isn’t debate. Real debate is pre-empted by internal bi-partisan consensus on some basic issues: maintain a giant garrison state, shrink the state everywhere else, preference corporations over populations, restrict civil liberties to secure status quo power structures. So when it comes to Iran, Iraq, Syria and the like, the question isn’t whether to go to war, but what kind of war to fight. Hawks want bombs. Doves want sanctions. Publicans want Marines. Dems want a proxy army of jihadis. They both want Academi mercenaries. (Obama hired out the gang formerly known as Blackwater to the CIA for a cool $250 million.) And when we’ve finished off ISIS, the question won’t be about an exit strategy, but whether to head west to Damascus or east to Tehran.

The question isn’t whether to cut aid to Israel given its serial criminality in Gaza and the West Bank, but how fast settlements can annex the Jordan Valley without attracting more international opprobrium. (International law, again, set aside.)

On the domestic front, the question isn’t whether to have single payer or private healthcare, but whether citizens should be forced to purchase private schemes or simply admonished to do so. The question isn’t whether or not to keep or strengthen New Deal entitlements, but how swiftly they can be eviscerated. The question isn’t whether or not to surveil the body politic, but where to store the data, and whether or not to harvest two-hop or three-hop metadata. The question isn’t whether or not to hold authors of torture programs accountable, but how much of the damning torture report to redact so as to leave them unprosecutable. The question isn’t whether or not to regulate Wall Street but, as slimy oil industry lawyer Bennett Holiday put it in Syriana, to create “the illusion of due diligence.”

All this is not to say the MSM isn’t aware of alternative viewpoints. It is, but it only acknowledges them when they can be used to justify a foregone conclusion. In the past year, the MSM has nearly become infatuated with international law. Friel has tracked the paper of record’s response to the Ukrainian fiasco. What did he find? When Russia annexed Crimea, the Times inveighed against the bloodless “invasion” as a gross violation of international law. Eight different editorials over the next few months hyperventilated about global security, castigating Russian President Vladimir Putin for his “illegal” violation and his “contempt for,” “flouting,” “blatant transgression,” and “breach” of international law. Calls were sounded to “protect” against such cynical disregard of global consensus. Western allies needed to busy themselves “reasserting international law” and exacting heavy penalties on Russia for “riding roughshod” over such sacred precepts as “Ukrainian sovereignty.”

Quite so, as Washington supports the toppling of democratically elected governments in Kiev and Tegucigalpa, sends drones to ride “roughshod” over Yemeni, Pakistani, Somali and other poorly defended borders; and deploys thousands of troops, advisors, and American-armed jihadis to patrol the sectarian abattoirs of Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. But better to exonerate ourselves on those counts and chalk it up to the fog of war. After all, we follow the law of exceptionalism, clearly defined by Richard Falk as, “Accountability for the weak and vulnerable, discretion for the strong and mighty.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/02/ ... of-debate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pretty accurate, except for the entitlements.
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Re: 5 Middle East Myths

Post by Cap'n Cat »

Cluck U wrote:
kalm wrote:Nice little rant here on the illusion of debate regarding foreign policy:



http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/02/ ... of-debate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pretty accurate, except for the entitlements.


Speaking of…….


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