Chizzang - Christie wins big in NJ

[kalm]

I'm luke warm regarding unions at best but I do like higher wages for the low-middle class (everybody should really).

So yes, you can make a point that union greed lost those manufacturing jobs but it also has to do with the greed of free trade. Or is greed only good as it applies to investors and management?

Its only greed when the person who adds value expects a living wage. Eight-figure bonuses for parasites who produce nothing aren't greed.

I read something awhile back that if the minimum wage had kept up with productivity since the 60's it would be over $20/hour.

[GannonFan]

Its only greed when the person who adds value expects a living wage. Eight-figure bonuses for parasites who produce nothing aren't greed.

I read something awhile back that if the minimum wage had kept up with productivity since the 60's it would be over $20/hour.

Which, of course, wouldn't matter, because inflationary pressures would make the buying power of that $20/hour the same as the $7/hr (or so) is today. Minimum wage laws are actually very neutral - there may be some turbulence in the very short term when they get raised (i.e. some people start making a lot more of real money and some people get laid off) but in the longer term there is no effect - inflation ticks up, everyone makes a little bit more (and likely the richer will always make out better) and the buying power, at the best, remains the same.

Minimum wage legistlation is the ultimate feel good measure for politician to back - it does nothing real, it costs nothing, and those making minimum wage think you did something for them when really you haven't.

[ASUG8]

I read something awhile back that if the minimum wage had kept up with productivity since the 60's it would be over $20/hour.

Which, of course, wouldn't matter, because inflationary pressures would make the buying power of that $20/hour the same as the $7/hr (or so) is today. Minimum wage laws are actually very neutral - there may be some turbulence in the very short term when they get raised (i.e. some people start making a lot more of real money and some people get laid off) but in the longer term there is no effect - inflation ticks up, everyone makes a little bit more (and likely the richer will always make out better) and the buying power, at the best, remains the same.

Minimum wage legistlation is the ultimate feel good measure for politician to back - it does nothing real, it costs nothing, and those making minimum wage think you did something for them when really you haven't.

Companies don't wait around for the long term to make profitability decisions - you start missing earnings targets a few quarters in a row and you (as management) are out of a job. If wages go up dramatically, in the short term they invest in capital equipment to automate manual labor, they move operations to right to work states, or they move overseas to take advantage of cheaper labor. The US textile, apparel, and steel industries are perfect examples of what happens when labor costs get unmanageable, and those are complete industries that won't be back en masse in the US. I'd love to see everyone working with at least a living wage, but from a pure economic perspective I don't know how that happens.

[Chizzang]

Which, of course, wouldn't matter, because inflationary pressures would make the buying power of that $20/hour the same as the $7/hr (or so) is today. Minimum wage laws are actually very neutral - there may be some turbulence in the very short term when they get raised (i.e. some people start making a lot more of real money and some people get laid off) but in the longer term there is no effect - inflation ticks up, everyone makes a little bit more (and likely the richer will always make out better) and the buying power, at the best, remains the same.

Minimum wage legistlation is the ultimate feel good measure for politician to back - it does nothing real, it costs nothing, and those making minimum wage think you did something for them when really you haven't.

Companies don't wait around for the long term to make profitability decisions - you start missing earnings targets a few quarters in a row and you (as management) are out of a job. If wages go up dramatically, in the short term they invest in capital equipment to automate manual labor, they move operations to right to work states, or they move overseas to take advantage of cheaper labor. The US textile, apparel, and steel industries are perfect examples of what happens when labor costs get unmanageable, and those are complete industries that won't be back en masse in the US. I'd love to see everyone working with at least a living wage, but from a pure economic perspective I don't know how that happens.

The common Mfg. laborer is a declining need in the U.S. style economy
Unless of course you're talking about the lower level "service industries" like food service or Wal-Mart etc.

We've made our bed...

[SDHornet]

I don't know if that figure is all that telling. What percentage is it for manufacturing workers? What drove manufacturing jobs out of the country?
In my mind, unions, or at least the threat of unions, has created a bigger illegal immigration problem than we should be experiencing. Illegal immigrants will work for far less and won't unionize, thus becoming more attractive to employers.
I'm all for worker organizations to help negotiate compensation for groups, but it has gone way overboard where the leaders of these unions are doing more long-term harm than good.

Illegal immigrants are no more problem than we want them to be; throw their employers in jail and the "problem" will disappear overnight. They won't come if there aren't any jobs.

I’ve got a better idea. Pass a mandate that requires all employers to employ only legal workers and install fines for employers that don’t. Make fines so much that it won’t be cost effective to hire illegals. This way the legal system won’t get bogged down with unnecessary paperwork that will otherwise go towards pot users.







Then allow the President to issue exemptions to employers he thinks deserves them (ie who funded his campaign). Sound familiar?

[GannonFan]

Companies don't wait around for the long term to make profitability decisions - you start missing earnings targets a few quarters in a row and you (as management) are out of a job. If wages go up dramatically, in the short term they invest in capital equipment to automate manual labor, they move operations to right to work states, or they move overseas to take advantage of cheaper labor. The US textile, apparel, and steel industries are perfect examples of what happens when labor costs get unmanageable, and those are complete industries that won't be back en masse in the US. I'd love to see everyone working with at least a living wage, but from a pure economic perspective I don't know how that happens.

The common Mfg. laborer is a declining need in the U.S. style economy
Unless of course you're talking about the lower level "service industries" like food service or Wal-Mart etc.

We've made our bed...

I agree the common mfg laborer is in declining need in the US, but why is that a "we've made our bed" issue? The reason the worker is in declining need, even though US manufacturing continues to be the largest mfg sector in the world, is because of advances in automation and engineering - we need fewer workers today even though we're producing orders of magnitude more than we ever have. The industry has innovated and improved time and time again. We can't expect. nor should we, that a low-skill, low-effort job would still exist in an industry. It's a tough world out here, hoping for a cushy job for life with no hard work is not realistic, either for the low-skilled laborer or for the fat cat execs that houndawg likes to think exist everywhere.

[Chizzang]

The common Mfg. laborer is a declining need in the U.S. style economy
Unless of course you're talking about the lower level "service industries" like food service or Wal-Mart etc.

We've made our bed...

I agree the common mfg laborer is in declining need in the US, but why is that a "we've made our bed" issue? The reason the worker is in declining need, even though US manufacturing continues to be the largest mfg sector in the world, is because of advances in automation and engineering - we need fewer workers today even though we're producing orders of magnitude more than we ever have. The industry has innovated and improved time and time again. We can't expect. nor should we, that a low-skill, low-effort job would still exist in an industry. It's a tough world out here, hoping for a cushy job for life with no hard work is not realistic, either for the low-skilled laborer or for the fat cat execs that houndawg likes to think exist everywhere.

understood, and I agree
The We've made our bed part references our declining education
Instead of Americans responding to the NEW CALL we're slipping drastically

American Tech companies like Microsoft / Apple / Google
are forced to hire outside of the U.S. for U.S. positions



Yes, I agree / Industry has changed and advanced
We - however- as a society are being left behind inside our own boarders

[GannonFan]

I agree the common mfg laborer is in declining need in the US, but why is that a "we've made our bed" issue? The reason the worker is in declining need, even though US manufacturing continues to be the largest mfg sector in the world, is because of advances in automation and engineering - we need fewer workers today even though we're producing orders of magnitude more than we ever have. The industry has innovated and improved time and time again. We can't expect. nor should we, that a low-skill, low-effort job would still exist in an industry. It's a tough world out here, hoping for a cushy job for life with no hard work is not realistic, either for the low-skilled laborer or for the fat cat execs that houndawg likes to think exist everywhere.

understood, and I agree
The We've made our bed part references our declining education
Instead of Americans responding to the NEW CALL we're slipping drastically

American Tech companies like Microsoft / Apple / Google
are forced to hire outside of the U.S. for U.S. positions



Yes, I agree / Industry has changed and advanced
We - however- as a society are being left behind inside our own boarders

I agree with the education as well. We're letting the "every kid gets a medal" concept seep into the educational rigor too often anymore. My kids come home with such little math homework I need to ask them if they are even doing math in school anymore. There's a chance, now that the millenials are getting out of school, and more importantly their Baby Boomer parents, that we might be able to reverse the tide before the millenials start having kids themselves, but that doesn't give us much time. We'll see.

[kalm]

understood, and I agree
The We've made our bed part references our declining education
Instead of Americans responding to the NEW CALL we're slipping drastically

American Tech companies like Microsoft / Apple / Google
are forced to hire outside of the U.S. for U.S. positions



Yes, I agree / Industry has changed and advanced
We - however- as a society are being left behind inside our own boarders

I agree with the education as well. We're letting the "every kid gets a medal" concept seep into the educational rigor too often anymore. My kids come home with such little math homework I need to ask them if they are even doing math in school anymore. There's a chance, now that the millenials are getting out of school, and more importantly their Baby Boomer parents, that we might be able to reverse the tide before the millenials start having kids themselves, but that doesn't give us much time. We'll see.

Really? I've had a very different experience. My nieces and nephews who are mostly now in college are very sharp, well rounded kids who have studied their asses off the whole way.

I remember when my oldest's kindergarten teacher was freaking out about his progress just a couple of months in to the school year. When I increduously pressed her on this, she warned me that "academic expectations for kindergartners are a lot higher these days than when I went to school. Academic standards??? I thought kindergarten was for learning not to pick your nose.

This hasn't changed since then with both boys (5th and 7th grade now), bringing more homework back than I had as a high schooler. The math, science, and history projects and knowledge they display are astounding. Cripes, there's barely time for after school sports, not to mention the nightly Greenwald and Taibbi reading that I require of them.

Perhaps I'm lucky and Cheney's reputation as one of the better school districts in the state is true.

[Grizalltheway]

I agree with the education as well. We're letting the "every kid gets a medal" concept seep into the educational rigor too often anymore. My kids come home with such little math homework I need to ask them if they are even doing math in school anymore. There's a chance, now that the millenials are getting out of school, and more importantly their Baby Boomer parents, that we might be able to reverse the tide before the millenials start having kids themselves, but that doesn't give us much time. We'll see.

Really? I've had a very different experience. My nieces and nephews who are mostly now in college are very sharp, well rounded kids who have studied their asses off the whole way.

I remember when my oldest's kindergarten teacher was freaking out about his progress just a couple of months in to the school year. When I increduously pressed her on this, she warned me that "academic expectations for kindergartners are a lot higher these days than when I went to school. Academic standards??? I thought kindergarten was for learning not to pick your nose.

This hasn't changed since then with both boys (5th and 7th grade now), bringing more homework back than I had as a high schooler. The math, science, and history projects and knowledge they display are astounding. Cripes, there's barely time for after school sports, not to mention the nightly Greenwald and Taibbi reading that I require of them.

Perhaps I'm lucky and Cheney's reputation as one of the better school districts in the state is true.

Well, you also live in a blue state that realizes having a quality education system requires funding adequate funding.

[SDHornet]

Really? I've had a very different experience. My nieces and nephews who are mostly now in college are very sharp, well rounded kids who have studied their asses off the whole way.

I remember when my oldest's kindergarten teacher was freaking out about his progress just a couple of months in to the school year. When I increduously pressed her on this, she warned me that "academic expectations for kindergartners are a lot higher these days than when I went to school. Academic standards??? I thought kindergarten was for learning not to pick your nose.

This hasn't changed since then with both boys (5th and 7th grade now), bringing more homework back than I had as a high schooler. The math, science, and history projects and knowledge they display are astounding. Cripes, there's barely time for after school sports, not to mention the nightly Greenwald and Taibbi reading that I require of them.

Perhaps I'm lucky and Cheney's reputation as one of the better school districts in the state is true.

Well, you also live in a blue state that realizes having a quality education system requires funding adequate funding.

Over half of CA's budget goes to education, and I guarndamntee you most of it is nowhere near quality.

[houndawg]

Which, of course, wouldn't matter, because inflationary pressures would make the buying power of that $20/hour the same as the $7/hr (or so) is today. Minimum wage laws are actually very neutral - there may be some turbulence in the very short term when they get raised (i.e. some people start making a lot more of real money and some people get laid off) but in the longer term there is no effect - inflation ticks up, everyone makes a little bit more (and likely the richer will always make out better) and the buying power, at the best, remains the same.

Minimum wage legistlation is the ultimate feel good measure for politician to back - it does nothing real, it costs nothing, and those making minimum wage think you did something for them when really you haven't.

Companies don't wait around for the long term to make profitability decisions - you start missing earnings targets a few quarters in a row and you (as management) are out of a job. If wages go up dramatically, in the short term they invest in capital equipment to automate manual labor, they move operations to right to work states, or they move overseas to take advantage of cheaper labor. The US textile, apparel, and steel industries are perfect examples of what happens when labor costs get unmanageable, and those are complete industries that won't be back en masse in the US. I'd love to see everyone working with at least a living wage, but from a pure economic perspective I don't know how that happens.

You left out the part about not investing in new equipment and technology for steel mills like our overseas competition did.