Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by BDKJMU »

SuperHornet wrote:
93henfan wrote:
SH, stick to what you know buddy. First off, battalion is subordinate to regiment. Second, there are absolutely no women allowed in any ground combat MOS (inf, arty, tanks) in the Marine Corps, and unlike all the other services, the Marine Corps completely segregates women from men in enlisted basic training. They are integrated with men for training at OCS (squad bays still segregated), but they have different (ie lower) physical standards and run modified courses during tested exercises.

You mention women in "grunt" organizations down to the division level. Sure, someone has to do the payroll, make the general's coffee, type up his memos, and we even let some of them, gasp, drive big vehicles. BUT, none are deployable to the front line. They get close, mind you, as the USMC is a very lean organization, but you won't find them out on patrol or leading an offensive.
First Marine Division IS what I know, 93. The vast majority of my Naval career was spent supporting Marines in some form or another. I was in 1st MarDiv for a LONG time. I never said females were in MOS 0311. A "separate battalion" is a battalion that is directly subordinate to Division Headquarters, NOT a regiment. That's like a Tank Battalion, an Assault Amphibian Battallion, or a Combat Engineer Battalion. I served in both 3rd Assault Amphibian Battalion and 1st Combat Engineer Battalion at Camp Pendleton. While they had no females while I was there, females joined 1st CEB at some point after I left. Additionally, while I was at Camp Pendleton (that's early-to-mid-'90s, BTW), there were women at the Division level, and one who ended up at Pendleton's artillery regiment. That one was a bit unusual for the time, I'll grant you, but it DID happen. They were all in support MOS's, but they WERE there. And support outfits DO end up doing security patrols behind the lines. They'd be irresponsible not to.
Wait, I thought you were a chick? :?
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by SuperHornet »

At least 93 made an honest mistake, unlike BDK, who is apparently a true ignoramus who can't even be bothered to pay attention to months and years of threads that showed otherwise.

:ohno:
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by BDKJMU »

SuperHornet wrote:At least 93 made an honest mistake, unlike BDK, who is apparently a true ignoramus who can't even be bothered to pay attention to months and years of threads that showed otherwise.

:ohno:
Then how come you act like a chick on this message board with all that woman power shit?
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by BDKJMU »

I don't have much of a problem with it if standards remain the exact same across the board for men and women.....

....but the Army already has a lower PT standard for women, something I disagree with. They say they're not going to lower standards for these combat MOS's, but what happens when you have a combat arms MOS that 0% or a very small % of females can pass, and this MOS's remain 99+% men? I think they will end up lowering standards.

".....And Gen. Robert Cone, the chief of the Army's Training and Doctrine Command, said the services are developing new physical standards to make sure recruits are capable of meeting the physical demands of combat roles........"

That quote right there should set up red flags. The sgt quoted in the same article pretty much nails it:

"......And it's one echoed by Jonn Lilyea, a former infantry sergeant who now publishes a military blog, "This Ain't Hell." Lilyea, who fought in the 1991 Persian Gulf war, said he believes physical standards will be relaxed "in order to force the acceptance of women in the combat arms specialties."
"I know it's an eventuality, because the social scientists at the Pentagon are going to want to see numbers that get accepted in there so they can show how just the whole thing is," he said........."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/24/us/milita ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by BDKJMU on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by BDKJMU »

JohnStOnge wrote:What I expect is that the physical standards of certain positions will be lowered in order to accommodate the egalitarian push to allow women into those position.

I have no way of knowing if that will have an impact on effectiveness. Also, our military is so superior to anybody else's right now that a decline in effectiveness might not make much practical difference.

But I do expect that to happen. There are going to positions, I think, such that few if any women can pass the current physical demands. So the physical requirements will be diminished in order to allow women in.
Yep.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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SuperHornet wrote:At least 93 made an honest mistake, unlike BDK, who is apparently a true ignoramus who can't even be bothered to pay attention to months and years of threads that showed otherwise.

:ohno:
I didn't make any mistake. I was a 1stMarDiv Marine, not some sailor tagalong.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by Vidav »

93henfan wrote:
SuperHornet wrote:At least 93 made an honest mistake, unlike BDK, who is apparently a true ignoramus who can't even be bothered to pay attention to months and years of threads that showed otherwise.

:ohno:
I didn't make any mistake. I was a 1stMarDiv Marine, not some sailor tagalong.

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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by 93henfan »

Sorry if I came off as harsh. SH, while one of the most peculiar people I've ever read, seems like a genuinely well-meaning person. Most Navy folks at Camp Pendleton were. I didn't interact with them that much though. The only time you see Navy people in the Marine Corps is when you get sick or go to church and I hardly did either of those.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by mrklean »

93henfan wrote:Sorry if I came off as harsh. SH, while one of the most peculiar people I've ever read, seems like a genuinely well-meaning person. Most Navy folks at Camp Pendleton were. I didn't interact with them that much though. The only time you see Navy people in the Marine Corps is when you get sick or go to church and I hardly did either of those.
Or when you got lost, and the SEALS had to come find you................... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by SuperHornet »

93henfan wrote:Sorry if I came off as harsh. SH, while one of the most peculiar people I've ever read, seems like a genuinely well-meaning person. Most Navy folks at Camp Pendleton were. I didn't interact with them that much though. The only time you see Navy people in the Marine Corps is when you get sick or go to church and I hardly did either of those.
That's exactly right. The vast majority of Navy folk at Marine bases are doctors/dentists/nurses/hospital corpsmen/dental corpsmen or chaplains/chaplain's assistants. There are also a few construction officers and a few special warfare types. While I was there, there were also one or two personnel types. A ton of civilians with various base jobs, too. In an infantry battalion, you'll see a doctor and several corpsmen, a chaplain, and chaplain's assistant (if you're lucky). The chaplain's assistant billet is often gapped, so a Marine is sent over from one of the line companies to assist the chaplain. When in the barracks, I got to know the Marines in the general vicinity, and tried to get to all of my line companies with my chaplain, but if 93 didn't have much opportunity to get to know Sailors in his battalions, that's not exactly surprising. If you don't get sick very often, the only time you go to the Battalion Aid Station or the Branch Dental Clinic is for mandatory annual checkups, mandatory pre-deployment things, and to check in and check out. Similarly, unless you have reason to go to the chaplain for counseling or to help out in a command dispute, the only time you go to the chaplain's office is to check in or check out. Not surprising. Thus, 93's statement isn't exactly a burn. I would like to have met him while I was there (93-95 at Pendleton, 2000-2003 at 29 Palms). The Marines I knew were generally very good guys, and I am better off for having known them.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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I was at Pendleton and 29 Stumps about 50/50 from 1997 to 2000. Based in Pendleton but usually did three double-CAXs per year at Stumps. Predominantly attached to the 7th Marines combat operations center, but supported other 1MarDiv regimental COCs as well.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by SuperHornet »

That's way cool, 93. Except for the double CAX part. One CAX is bad enough. Ugh!

FWIW, I was coming down the hill mainside at 29 from my barracks to the chow hall for breakfast, listening to what I thought was my sports radio station in San Diego, but no morning show. They were covering 9/11. One of those things you'll never forget. I'm sure you remember where you were, too.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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SuperHornet wrote:That's way cool, 93. Except for the double CAX part. One CAX is bad enough. Ugh!

FWIW, I was coming down the hill mainside at 29 from my barracks to the chow hall for breakfast, listening to what I thought was my sports radio station in San Diego, but no morning show. They were covering 9/11. One of those things you'll never forget. I'm sure you remember where you were, too.
I did so many CAXs that by the third set of doubles I had completely memorized all the enemy scenarios. If I liked the Col and his AirO, I'd sometimes give them a little advice in developing their plan :lol:
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by JohnStOnge »

I didn't serve in the military. But I still think the end result of this is that standards will be lowered.

Many moons ago, I applied to be a firefighter. I saw the principle then. I took a civil service test. Back then, if you scored high on a civil service test it gave you an advantage.

I won't get too far into the details outside of the male/female thing. But suffice to say they were going to hire five people and no women scored among the five highest on the civil service test. So they took the woman who scored highest among the few women who took the test.

The guys had to run a mile and a half in a certain time. The woman didn't. The guys had to haul a certain weight up a ladder. The woman didn't. The guys had to do so many pushups and so many pullups. The woman didn't

Actually in the end she didn't make it because she couldn't even do ONE pullup.

You see what I'm getting at. They're going to alter the process. It's going to happen.

Whether it's going to make any practical difference or not, I don't know. But it's going to happen. The standards for physical performance are going to be lowered.

Oh and by the way I did get hired as a firefighter and also held the record time in the mile and a half run until some guy who'd been on a State championshp cross country team came along later and beat my time. But about a year later i decide to resign and go to college.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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Sounds like you were a coyote. All my Marines grew to hate the coyotes because the impression was that no matter what they did, they were wrong; the coyotes would always find something to gripe about.

But what they forgot about was that the whole purpose of the scenario was to give the leaders from CO down to fire team leader other options to think about. Not every enemy will be cut out of a mold. There WILL be things that go wrong, and there WILL be opponents who outsmart you. Learning that in a controlled environment is better than learning it the hard way when a "real" enemy does something unexpected.

I'm sure there's a good reason for the double CAX idea, but it sure does wreak havoc on the Marines that have to endure it. Those buck-thirty-five temperatures out at Blacktop are no joke....
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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JohnStOnge wrote:I didn't serve in the military. But I still think the end result of this is that standards will be lowered.

Many moons ago, I applied to be a firefighter. I saw the principle then. I took a civil service test. Back then, if you scored high on a civil service test it gave you an advantage.

I won't get too far into the details outside of the male/female thing. But suffice to say they were going to hire five people and no women scored among the five highest on the civil service test. So they took the woman who scored highest among the few women who took the test.

The guys had to run a mile and a half in a certain time. The woman didn't. The guys had to haul a certain weight up a ladder. The woman didn't. The guys had to do so many pushups and so many pullups. The woman didn't

Actually in the end she didn't make it because she couldn't even do ONE pullup.

You see what I'm getting at. They're going to alter the process. It's going to happen.

Whether it's going to make any practical difference or not, I don't know. But it's going to happen. The standards for physical performance are going to be lowered.
I went through the same thing when I applied to the Cedar Falls Police Department out of college. It was for an entry level partol officer job...whatever....

The "book test" was straight forward...it was the physical test that shocked me at the difference between men and women.

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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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JohnStOnge wrote:I didn't serve in the military. But I still think the end result of this is that standards will be lowered.
See, J, you could have stopped right there. Police, fire, and the military types have seen this happen for years and they are the choir you are preaching to. No amount of explanation will convince the hyper partisan left that the military is anything more than a test bed for social experimentation.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by Col Hogan »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:I didn't serve in the military. But I still think the end result of this is that standards will be lowered.
See, J, you could have stopped right there. Police, fire, and the military types have seen this happen for years and they are the choir you are preaching to. No amount of explanation will convince the hyper partisan left that the military is anything more than a test bed for social experimentation.
This...

:ohno: :ohno: :ohno:
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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93henfan wrote:I was at Pendleton and 29 Stumps about 50/50 from 1997 to 2000. Based in Pendleton but usually did three double-CAXs per year at Stumps. Predominantly attached to the 7th Marines combat operations center, but supported other 1MarDiv regimental COCs as well.
COCs? I supported and sustained COCs from 2007-2011.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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Ibanez wrote:
93henfan wrote:I was at Pendleton and 29 Stumps about 50/50 from 1997 to 2000. Based in Pendleton but usually did three double-CAXs per year at Stumps. Predominantly attached to the 7th Marines combat operations center, but supported other 1MarDiv regimental COCs as well.
COCs? I supported and sustained COCs from 2007-2011.
It's great that you're finally able to admit it. :D

My role during most of that time was to co-locate with the AirO in the COC to liaison between the ground commander and the Direct Air Support Center (DASC). Other times I was working in the DASC itself as the Senior Air Director, Tac Air Director, or Helo Director.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

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93henfan wrote:
Ibanez wrote: COCs? I supported and sustained COCs from 2007-2011.
It's great that you're finally able to admit it. :D

My role during most of that time was to co-locate with the AirO in the COC to liaison between the ground commander and the Direct Air Support Center (DASC). Other times I was working in the DASC itself as the Senior Air Director, Tac Air Director, or Helo Director.
That's way cool. COCs have really come a long way.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by JohnStOnge »

No amount of explanation will convince the hyper partisan left that the military is anything more than a test bed for social experimentation.
I think it's worse than that. I think they make the egalitarian assumption. There's no difference between the distributions of capabilities of males and females. And if a set of standards doesn't end up selecting in an egalitarian way there must be something wrong with the set of standards. The standards are screening for things that don't really matter. Not really important to the job. Because the assumption is that if all you cared about was being able to do the job then you'd see similar distributions of men and women.

It works that way with race in other areas too. They start off assuming that all differences in proportions as compared to population proportions are due to irrational discrimination. It couldn't happen if everything was fair. So if something...like a set of physical tests or a standardized test of aptitude...gets in the way of that there's something wrong with that something.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by CID1990 »

Ill be honest. There are plenty of combat related jobs that women can do. Heck they make pretty good fighter pilots because they have higher G tolerance than men.

But the idea that a woman, on average, could drag my limp ass out of harm's way in a firefight is ridiculous, and I'd be less inclined to take risks, put myself in harms way if I knew that 140 lb Mary was my backup. Any guy who says he would behave otherwise is either full of crap, or never would have been in the military in the first place. And you ex military Donks in here know exactly what I am talking about and you know damn well you agree whether you will admit it or not.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by BDKJMU »

Some Marine combat jobs may remain closed to women

WASHINGTON — In his first interview since the Pentagon opened ground combat jobs to women, the commandant of the Marine Corps said some occupations may ultimately remain closed if only a small number qualify.

The Marines will not lower physical standards for certain specialties, Gen. James Amos told USA TODAY. "We can't afford to lower standards," he said. "We can't make adjustments on what's required on the battlefield.

"That's not why America has a Marine Corps," he said.

The Marine Corps, like the Army, is reviewing the physical and other standards required for direct combat fields that had previously been closed to female servicemembers.

MORE: Pentagon makes women in combat rule change official

The Pentagon last week ordered that the services provide the opportunity for women to enter all fields, including infantry, tanks, artillery and other combat arms.

The entire process could take years as the services develop and validate "gender neutral" standards. The secretary of Defense would have to approve any fields that remain closed to women.

"If the numbers are so small with regards to qualification, then there very may well be (job fields) that remain closed," Amos said. "Those will be few and far between."

Deploying only one or two female servicemembers in a unit, for example, would make it difficult for the women to succeed. "You want to have assimilation … so our females can mentor one another," Amos said.

Each of the previously closed fields will likely have its own set of requirements.

Some are easily quantifiable. For example, men and women wanting to serve on a tank crew would need to be able to lift a tank round, which weighs more than 40 pounds, and load it into the main gun. Other standards may be more difficult to quantify.

Amos said he is confident that the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course (IOC), a mentally and physically grueling 13-week course, is an accurate measure of what it takes to successfully lead a rifle platoon in combat.

"There's no intention on my part of changing anything within the IOC curriculum," Amos said. The course has drawn attention because last year the Marine Corps began admitting women on an experimental basis.

The first two women admitted did not complete the course. Two more volunteers are expected to begin the course next month.

The infantry school for enlisted Marines, however, is being looked at closely to determine whether the standards are a good measurement of the physical and mental requirements of a Marine infantryman.

Once the standards and requirements among all specialties are codified they could then be incorporated into screening tests and specialty schools. The Marine Corps has more than 30 fields that are currently closed to women.

"This is not writing standards now in an effort to exclude females," Amos said. "This is writing and developing standards that quite frankly should have been developed years ago and have not been."

Amos said the Marine Corps will ensure that the opportunities are opened up without adjusting requirements.

"We've got too much combat experience for me to even suggest lowering the standards," Amos said. "So I'm not going to do it."

The Pentagon order will mark a change for all the services, but particularly for the Marine Corps, a lean expeditionary force that is organized and built around the infantry. The Marine Corps has the smallest percentage of women in its ranks.

Amos said the elite service is serious about opening opportunities for women.

"This isn't a subtle way of saying, 'OK, we're going to have standards and so we're going to exclude our women.' It's actually just the opposite."

There is broad public support for allowing women into combat arms jobs, according to a survey conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press and The Washington Post. Of those surveyed, 66% supported allowing women into ground combat roles.
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Re: Panetta to Open Combat Positions to Women

Post by 93henfan »

The Commandant makes too much sense there. He must be a sexist, chauvinistic pig to not want to lower standards.
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