The issue with Buy American and isolationism

[DSUrocks07]

What is the end goal when it comes to this policy? The issue is the limitation of potential growth and expansion of the market when you limit it to just ~400 million people. The main driving force in the current valuation of multinational US companies is the fact that they are multinational.

It's harder for America to remain exceptional if America is unable to sell its goods and services on the world market, and it's 8 billion+ potential consumers.

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[GannonFan]

What is the end goal when it comes to this policy? The issue is the limitation of potential growth and expansion of the market when you limit it to just ~400 million people. The main driving force in the current valuation of multinational US companies is the fact that they are multinational.

It's harder for America to remain exceptional if America is unable to sell its goods and services on the world market, and it's 8 billion+ potential consumers.

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The other real big issue is that we couldn't possibly be able to make every single thing we buy and use in this country. As you said, we're just 400 million people. A lot compared to most countries, but still just a fraction of the rest of the world. That's the driver with globalization and free trade - other people can make things we just don't have the capacity and manpower here to make. And some things we just don't want to make because the margins aren't good on making them. Even before all of this trade crap started, it was difficult to find laborers for most manufacturing in this country. The jobs were there, we just didn't have enough people to fill them.

[kalm]

What is the end goal when it comes to this policy? The issue is the limitation of potential growth and expansion of the market when you limit it to just ~400 million people. The main driving force in the current valuation of multinational US companies is the fact that they are multinational.

It's harder for America to remain exceptional if America is unable to sell its goods and services on the world market, and it's 8 billion+ potential consumers.

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The other real big issue is that we couldn't possibly be able to make every single thing we buy and use in this country. As you said, we're just 400 million people. A lot compared to most countries, but still just a fraction of the rest of the world. That's the driver with globalization and free trade - other people can make things we just don't have the capacity and manpower here to make. And some things we just don't want to make because the margins aren't good on making them. Even before all of this trade crap started, it was difficult to find laborers for most manufacturing in this country. The jobs were there, we just didn't have enough people to fill them.

And those working class folks cheerleading the return of factory jobs are in love with the 1950’s world where the wages enabled home ownership, education for the kids, and retirement with dignity.

As you imply, the desirable margins and profit seeking stifle that in today’s world. Or else the price of cell phones triples.

[GannonFan]

The other real big issue is that we couldn't possibly be able to make every single thing we buy and use in this country. As you said, we're just 400 million people. A lot compared to most countries, but still just a fraction of the rest of the world. That's the driver with globalization and free trade - other people can make things we just don't have the capacity and manpower here to make. And some things we just don't want to make because the margins aren't good on making them. Even before all of this trade crap started, it was difficult to find laborers for most manufacturing in this country. The jobs were there, we just didn't have enough people to fill them.

And those working class folks cheerleading the return of factory jobs are in love with the 1950’s world where the wages enabled home ownership, education for the kids, and retirement with dignity.

As you imply, the desirable margins and profit seeking stifle that in today’s world. Or else the price of cell phones triples.

Might not just be a question of wages, though. I've worked in manufacturing (chemical engineer) for 30 years now. The wages engineers and then production operators make are pretty good. Our operators are probably making $80k a year, with nice benefits. And it's not back breaking work either, actually physically pretty easy, especially compared to the summer work I did when I was going through school. The problem is how much some of those other things have shot up in value, most notably college education (which has been going on for the last 20 years or so) and more recently home ownership.

We've talked about college education a lot on here - making most everyone go to college hasn't been a winning idea. We have some operators here at my plant who actually have college degrees - they don't need them and certainly aren't using them (i.e. recreational management isn't really a pipeline to anything in the real world), and because of how we loan and guarantee loans, we've basically been funneling government money to colleges for the past 20 years. No real fault on their part to just accept this direct funding of tuition. But it means that while colleges get rich, the poor folks who took out loans to get that education are sometimes falling behind the people who didn't even go to college.

Home ownership is a real complicated issue. Partly with the builders, partly with the local governments that actually zone and restrict the places to build, partly with the self-imposed inflation we put ourselves through in the last 4 years, and I'm sure at least another 5 major issues. But to just peg it to wages is really missing the bigger issues at hand. Even if we magically increased everyone's wages by 100% right now, it wouldn't solve much. Like we've seen with college education, I'm sure the costs of most everything would tick up 100%, if not more, in response. Economics is funny like that.

[DSUrocks07]

Home ownership becoming a more accessible source of wealth through HELOCs and other similar banking products complicates things further due to the web of internal economic systems that are dependent on the valuation of homes either being stable or increasing. So a 2008 style collapse to bring the affordability back down to a level that these "pseudo blue collar, 1950s style workers" are pining for would be a disaster for the current economic environment.

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[kalm]

And those working class folks cheerleading the return of factory jobs are in love with the 1950’s world where the wages enabled home ownership, education for the kids, and retirement with dignity.

As you imply, the desirable margins and profit seeking stifle that in today’s world. Or else the price of cell phones triples.

Might not just be a question of wages, though. I've worked in manufacturing (chemical engineer) for 30 years now. The wages engineers and then production operators make are pretty good. Our operators are probably making $80k a year, with nice benefits. And it's not back breaking work either, actually physically pretty easy, especially compared to the summer work I did when I was going through school. The problem is how much some of those other things have shot up in value, most notably college education (which has been going on for the last 20 years or so) and more recently home ownership.

We've talked about college education a lot on here - making most everyone go to college hasn't been a winning idea. We have some operators here at my plant who actually have college degrees - they don't need them and certainly aren't using them (i.e. recreational management isn't really a pipeline to anything in the real world), and because of how we loan and guarantee loans, we've basically been funneling government money to colleges for the past 20 years. No real fault on their part to just accept this direct funding of tuition. But it means that while colleges get rich, the poor folks who took out loans to get that education are sometimes falling behind the people who didn't even go to college.

Home ownership is a real complicated issue. Partly with the builders, partly with the local governments that actually zone and restrict the places to build, partly with the self-imposed inflation we put ourselves through in the last 4 years, and I'm sure at least another 5 major issues. But to just peg it to wages is really missing the bigger issues at hand. Even if we magically increased everyone's wages by 100% right now, it wouldn't solve much. Like we've seen with college education, I'm sure the costs of most everything would tick up 100%, if not more, in response. Economics is funny like that.

I was referring to pro-Trump expectations based on the experience of past generations.

Your points on education and homeownership are fair and changing them is a pipe dream under the current system.

[SeattleGriz]

Gotta throw my two cents out there.

First things first. The US won't be totally isolated to itself in regards to trade. Secondly, the US is fairly unique in that we have resources, the ability to extract those resources, manufacture a product and purchase that product. We are very self sufficient/innovative if need be. Trump is banking on that.

[Pwns]

I favor industrial policy, especially for things like semiconductors and drugs. There's some nuance in that discussion.

But what Trump supporters overlook is you can't make bananas, sugar cane, rubber trees, or cocoa beans in a factory. Putting tariffs on the countries that give us that stuff is just nuts.

[UNI88]

I favor industrial policy, especially for things like semiconductors and drugs. There's some nuance in that discussion.

But what Trump supporters overlook is you can't make bananas, sugar cane, rubber trees, or cocoa beans in a factory. Putting tariffs on the countries that give us that stuff is just nuts.

trump and his supporters overlook a lot of other things too like:
- how much the US exports/imports services and how tarIffs impact them?
- if domestic manufacturing increases how much of it will be automated "(i.e. no jobs gained)?

[kalm]

I favor industrial policy, especially for things like semiconductors and drugs. There's some nuance in that discussion.

But what Trump supporters overlook is you can't make bananas, sugar cane, rubber trees, or cocoa beans in a factory. Putting tariffs on the countries that give us that stuff is just nuts.

trump and his supporters overlook a lot of other things too like:
- how much the US exports/imports services and how tarIffs impact them?
- if domestic manufacturing increases how much of it will be automated "(i.e. no jobs gained)?

See coffee or China banning American made films. Hollywood lives on those sales.

[kalm]

He has a point…

[Caribbean Hen]

He has a point…

And you totally support the slaughter of young men and endlessly pouring money down the drain in the Ukraine

[kalm]

He has a point…

And you totally support the slaughter of young men and endlessly pouring money down the drain in the Ukraine

Nope. I’m in favor of the entire world supporting the right to autonomy of a nation against an aggressor and imperialistic regime that uses force to take territory. Ukraine is sacrificing its young men to remain free. The money we spent is a pittance compared to some of the gains made on Wall Street yesterday. One Trump friend made $900 million according to Trump himself.

We have been hypocritical when it comes to military support and interventions over the years. Too often our motivations have been driven by the MIC (which MAGA didn’t realize existed before 2022) and corporatism. The price you pay for willfully becoming the world’s only superpower and police I suppose.

But that doesn’t mean all interventions and aid have been ill-conceived. Ukraine is different than Chile or Iraq. If you’d like to continue playing that game however, you obviously would have preferred Nazi Germany take over Europe and Russia be allowed to expand back into the Soviet Union boot print against the desires of those they seek to oppress.

You’re not a Nazi-Commie are ya? Those are the words kind of commies.

[houndawg]

Gotta throw my two cents out there.

First things first. The US won't be totally isolated to itself in regards to trade. Secondly, the US is fairly unique in that we have resources, the ability to extract those resources, manufacture a product and purchase that product. We are very self sufficient/innovative if need be. Trump is banking on that.

Bullshit, he doesn't think about anything like that.

[BDKJMU]

Teamsters and UAW mile Trump‘s tariffs..

news of the tariffs was welcome news for the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which views tariffs as a policy that will promote U.S. manufacturing and bring back union jobs, Kara Deniz, assistant director of communications for the union, told Newsweek in an interview Tuesday afternoon…

https://www.newsweek.com/teamsters-labo ... mp-2057151

In a stark reversal of its campaign battles with Donald Trump, when it derided him as a scab who would harm workers, the UAW leadership is all in on his tariffs.

UAW President Shawn Fain said in a statement Wednesday evening that the union applauds the Trump administration for following through on 25% tariffs on foreign-made vehicles and parts. The statement said Trump has made history “for stepping up to end the free-trade disaster that has devastated working-class communities for decades.”

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 686652007/

[GannonFan]

Teamsters and UAW mile Trump‘s tariffs..

news of the tariffs was welcome news for the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which views tariffs as a policy that will promote U.S. manufacturing and bring back union jobs, Kara Deniz, assistant director of communications for the union, told Newsweek in an interview Tuesday afternoon…

https://www.newsweek.com/teamsters-labo ... mp-2057151

In a stark reversal of its campaign battles with Donald Trump, when it derided him as a scab who would harm workers, the UAW leadership is all in on his tariffs.

UAW President Shawn Fain said in a statement Wednesday evening that the union applauds the Trump administration for following through on 25% tariffs on foreign-made vehicles and parts. The statement said Trump has made history “for stepping up to end the free-trade disaster that has devastated working-class communities for decades.”

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 686652007/

IMO, most modern-day unions are not only unnecessary, but anti-competitive. Having these two line up behind you is not a mark of heading in the right direction.

[UNI88]

Teamsters and UAW mile Trump‘s tariffs..

https://www.newsweek.com/teamsters-labo ... mp-2057151

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 686652007/

IMO, most modern-day unions are not only unnecessary, but anti-competitive. Having these two line up behind you is not a mark of heading in the right direction.

The more and more Trump uses kalmie's ideas the more BDK steps toward those ideas. Amazing.

[BDKJMU]

trump and his supporters overlook a lot of other things too like:
- how much the US exports/imports services and how tarIffs impact them?
- if domestic manufacturing increases how much of it will be automated "(i.e. no jobs gained)?

See coffee or China banning American made films. Hollywood lives on those sales.

Good. Uber liberal Hollywood has been bending the knee to China since the 80s. Countless examples. Red Dawn the invading army and antagonists were changed from Chinese to North Korean so as to not offend China. In Top Gun Cruise’s jacket, Taiwanese and Japanese flags were swapped out and replaced with ambiguous symbols to not offend China. Notice how China is never portrayed badly anymore in major Hollywood films, or there are never any Chinese bad guys? Its Hollywood bending the knee to China.

[BDKJMU]

IMO, most modern-day unions are not only unnecessary, but anti-competitive. Having these two line up behind you is not a mark of heading in the right direction.

The more and more Trump uses kalmie's ideas the more BDK steps toward those ideas. Amazing.

I‘m just pointing out 2 more example of the massive political realignments we have had in the last decade. Many private sector unions which supported Democrats since forever? membership at least has swung from donk supporting to conk supporting. Same with the white working class (and minorities working class has swung some to conks).

[UNI88]

The more and more Trump uses kalmie's ideas the more BDK steps toward those ideas. Amazing.

I‘m just pointing out 2 more example of the massive political realignments we have had in the last decade. Many private sector unions which supported Democrats since forever? membership at least has swung from donk supporting to conk supporting. Same with the white working class (and minorities working class has swung some to conks).

You're not wrong about the political realignments but your flip flops have been just has pronounced as kalm's.

[kalm]

IMO, most modern-day unions are not only unnecessary, but anti-competitive. Having these two line up behind you is not a mark of heading in the right direction.

The more and more Trump uses kalmie's ideas the more BDK steps toward those ideas. Amazing.

It ain’t easy being me.

[Caribbean Hen]

The more and more Trump uses kalmie's ideas the more BDK steps toward those ideas. Amazing.

It ain’t easy being me.

Are you developing an Orange hue?

[UNI88]

The more and more Trump uses kalmie's ideas the more BDK steps toward those ideas. Amazing.

It ain’t easy being me.

You're becoming a Conk while BDK, CH and SG are becoming Donks. The transformation is interesting to watch.

[UNI88]

“As that great Chicagoan Ferris Bueller once noted, ‘Life moves pretty fast,’” Powell quipped. “For the time being, we are well-positioned to wait for greater clarity before considering any adjustments to our policy stance.”

[Caribbean Hen]

It ain’t easy being me.

You're becoming a Conk while BDK, CH and SG are becoming Donks. The transformation is interesting to watch.

That’s actually kind of funny