Police Officers Association demands NFL apology...

[houndawg]

Athletic talent vs. a C avg. in high school.

FIFY
Not so sure you want to bring up high school grades on this one.

Actually it is a good comparison of what happens to dummies with talent vs. what happens to dummies without talent...

[JohnStOnge]

How come its ok for the NFL to be 70% black, but not for the Ferguson police force to be 90% white?

I think that's a good question and I think it goes beyond that. People have no problem with the NFL being disproportionately Black because we know it's a complete meritocracy. Innate ability plays a role and the chips fall where they may.

But it's not the same if, for instance, someone notes that there is a disproportionately LOW representation of Blacks among Engineers even though it really is just as obvious that innate ability plays a role in that. It really is pretty obvious that Blacks are not, on average, as good at math (for instance) as Whites and especially Asians are. It really is. And any reasonable person who looks at the situation would conclude that innate ability is a huge factor in that situation.

Of course we won't accept it no matter how obvious it is.

[Chizzang]

How come its ok for the NFL to be 70% black, but not for the Ferguson police force to be 90% white?

I think that's a good question and I think it goes beyond that. People have no problem with the NFL being disproportionately Black because we know it's a complete meritocracy. Innate ability plays a role and the chips fall where they may.

But it's not the same if, for instance, someone notes that there is a disproportionately LOW representation of Blacks among Engineers even though it really is just as obvious that innate ability plays a role in that. It really is pretty obvious that Blacks are not, on average, as good at math (for instance) as Whites and especially Asians are. It really is. And any reasonable person who looks at the situation would conclude that innate ability is a huge factor in that situation.

Of course we won't accept it no matter how obvious it is.

Actually John... You're a bit of a drama queen
The studies I read regarding race and employment bemoan the complete lack of interest blacks and Hispanics have in technical fields and sciences

I've never found one article or study saying we need to lower standards or just randomly hire more black scientists and engineers - The studies ultimately do point out the disparity that you also note - but they in no way endorse hiring willy nilly to meet quota...

They say:
How do we get blacks and Hispanics interested in this stuff..? Not we need to match numbers hiring

Again:
You're a bit of a drama queen John

With brainless jobs like "Police officer" and Mall Security and Burger King Night Manager we need to keep an eye on hiring practices...

[houndawg]

Cops beat their wives at twice the national rate. The POA should be apologizing to women for their low life members.

[CID1990]

Cops beat their wives at twice the national rate. The POA should be apologizing to women for their low life members.

You couldn't carry a bad cop's jock, HD.

Nothing you have ever done in your miserable life will ever come remotely as close to being as stressful as being a cop.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but your liberal high horse doesn't elevate you to anything approaching the stature of the 99.99% of cops who go to work every night and do their jobs well.

You're the first pussy to call the cops because you cant screw up the balls to walk next door yourself to tell your neighbor to
turn down his Justin Bieber.

[Chizzang]

Cops beat their wives at twice the national rate. The POA should be apologizing to women for their low life members.

You couldn't carry a bad cop's jock, HD.

Nothing you have ever done in your miserable life will ever come remotely as close to being as stressful as being a cop.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but your liberal high horse doesn't elevate you to anything approaching the stature of the 99.99% of cops who go to work every night and do their jobs well.

You're the first pussy to call the cops because you cant screw up the balls to walk next door yourself to tell your neighbor to
turn down his Justin Bieber.

Oh sure...
you fire back at Houndawg but I can't even get a rise out of you with my post

[CID1990]

You couldn't carry a bad cop's jock, HD.

Nothing you have ever done in your miserable life will ever come remotely as close to being as stressful as being a cop.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but your liberal high horse doesn't elevate you to anything approaching the stature of the 99.99% of cops who go to work every night and do their jobs well.

You're the first pussy to call the cops because you cant screw up the balls to walk next door yourself to tell your neighbor to
turn down his Justin Bieber.

Oh sure...
you fire back at Houndawg but I can't even get a rise out of you with my post

because its obvious you at least arrive at your incorrect views honestly

[D1B]

Cops beat their wives at twice the national rate. The POA should be apologizing to women for their low life members.

You couldn't carry a bad cop's jock, HD.

Nothing you have ever done in your miserable life will ever come remotely as close to being as stressful as being a cop.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but your liberal high horse doesn't elevate you to anything approaching the stature of the 99.99% of cops who go to work every night and do their jobs well.

You're the first pussy to call the cops because you cant screw up the balls to walk next door yourself to tell your neighbor to
turn down his Justin Bieber.

Someone needs a new tampon and a glass of warm milk.

[Chizzang]

Oh sure...
you fire back at Houndawg but I can't even get a rise out of you with my post

because its obvious you at least arrive at your incorrect views honestly

[JohnStOnge]

The studies I read regarding race and employment bemoan the complete lack of interest blacks and Hispanics have in technical fields and sciences

The reason there is a lack of interest is because there's a lack of ability. You're not interested in doing something you can't do. And the reason there is talk about a "lack of interest" is an aversion to talk about a lack of aptitude.

And it goes beyond that. When you talk about something Blacks (or other chosen groups) aren't good at you see statements like the following:

"This isn't just an issue of equity or fairness. A more diversified workforce will result in better engineering solutions in all sectors as well as address a critical national shortage of workers in some engineering fields," said Susan Staffin Metz, WEPAN president.

In other words, if there aren't enough Blacks (or other selected group members) in a given field that's "bad." Nobody ever says it's "bad" when Blacks are OVER represented in a particular profession.

The fact is Blacks just aren't good at math on average. We have REAMS of data that would show that to ANYBODY who's objective about it. And you have have to be good at math to be an engineer. But instead they're going to say stuff like "Blacks aren't INTERESTED in being engineers."

And something MUST be done about it to achieve that ESSENTIAL "diversity."

[JohnStOnge]

This is what I'm talking about Chiz:

You can go to the most recent version of the 12th grade National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) math scores and see if the results are consistent with not seeing many Black engineers.

The last 12th grade NAEP math test for which results are available at the NAEP site was administered in 2013.

Let's say that in order to be an engineer you pretty much have to be among the top 20% in math ability. I actually think it's more like the top 10% but let's go with 20%.

The overall national average is 153. The average among Blacks is 132. Because tests like that are intentionally normalized you can get a very good estimate of what it would take to be in the top 20% using the overall standard deviation. I'll go through the details if you want but what you come up with is that people with the potential to be engineers (the top 20%) would score at 181 or above.

Now you can use the standard deviation and mean score among Blacks to get a very good estimate of the percentage of Blacks that would score at 181 or above. It's about 5 percent of Blacks. Blacks are only 13 percent of the population so the percentage of Blacks you would EXPECT to see among Engineers is 0.6 percent.

That's what I'm talking about when I say that lack of math aptitude provides an OBVIOUS explanation for why the percentage of Engineers who are Black is low. The low percentage of Engineers who are Black can EASILY be explained by the known fact that the distribution of math aptitude among Blacks is low. But, no, we have to say stuff like, "OH, there's a lack of INTEREST!"

[D1B]

The studies I read regarding race and employment bemoan the complete lack of interest blacks and Hispanics have in technical fields and sciences

The reason there is a lack of interest is because there's a lack of ability. You're not interested in doing something you can't do. And the reason there is talk about a "lack of interest" is an aversion to talk about a lack of aptitude.

And it goes beyond that. When you talk about something Blacks (or other chosen groups) aren't good at you see statements like the following:

"This isn't just an issue of equity or fairness. A more diversified workforce will result in better engineering solutions in all sectors as well as address a critical national shortage of workers in some engineering fields," said Susan Staffin Metz, WEPAN president.

In other words, if there aren't enough Blacks (or other selected group members) in a given field that's "bad." Nobody ever says it's "bad" when Blacks are OVER represented in a particular profession.

The fact is Blacks just aren't good at math on average. We have REAMS of data that would show that to ANYBODY who's objective about it. And you have have to be good at math to be an engineer. But instead they're going to say stuff like "Blacks aren't INTERESTED in being engineers."

And something MUST be done about it to achieve that ESSENTIAL "diversity."

Wronge again. Root cause is poverty. The poor of any race is undereducated.

Thanks to racists like you and all the members of the GOP, they will remain poor for a long time.

[JohnStOnge]

Root cause is poverty. The poor of any race is undereducated.

I've been through that before with NAEP data showing that you poverty isn't sufficient to account for how poorly Blacks score.

Yes if you look at poor Whites vs. Upper and Middle Class Whites Upper and Middle Class Whites score better. Socioeconomic status is a factor. But poor Whites score higher than Upper and Middle Class Blacks do.

For example: On the math test I mentioned earlier, White students who were eligible for the school lunch program averaged 147 while Black students who were NOT eligible for the school lunch program averaged 139.

If you look at it mathematically "race" is a bigger factor than being eligible for the school lunch program or not being eligible for it is. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. That's what the numbers say. It's not popular to say it, but that's what objective analysis says.

We live in a culture in which objective analysis of such things is not allowed. That's the point.

[D1B]

Root cause is poverty. The poor of any race is undereducated.

I've been through that before with NAEP data showing that you poverty isn't sufficient to account for how poorly Blacks score.

Yes if you look at poor Whites vs. Upper and Middle Class Whites Upper and Middle Class Whites score better. Socioeconomic status is a factor. But poor Whites score higher than Upper and Middle Class Blacks do.

For example: On the math test I mentioned earlier, White students who were eligible for the school lunch program averaged 147 while Black students who were NOT eligible for the school lunch program averaged 139.

If you look at it mathematically "race" is a bigger factor than being eligible for the school lunch program or not being eligible for it is. I'm sorry, but it is what it is. That's what the numbers say. It's not popular to say it, but that's what objective analysis says.

We live in a culture in which objective analysis of such things is not allowed. That's the point.

Wronge again. For every study you cull from the nazi archives, there are hundreds confirming a correlation between lower intelligence and poverty.

[JohnStOnge]

Wronge again. For every study you cull from the nazi archives, there are hundreds confirming a correlation between lower intelligence and poverty.

I am not saying there is not a correlation between lower intelligence and poverty. I'm saying that when you look at National Assessment of Educational Progress scores it's not sufficient to account for the race differences. In other words. when you "control" for poverty the race factor persists. It doesn't go away.

And I'm not culling a study from NAZI archives. I'm citing US Department of Eduction National Assessment of Educational Progress results that you can get by using the query available at http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/naepdata/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (click "Main NDE".)

Really, D. I'm not fudging or deceiving here. The numbers are what they are. This is what you get when you break it down by race and Socioeconomic Status as defined by being eligible for the school lunch program or not:

Upper and Middle Class Whites: 165
Poor Whites: 146
Upper and Middle Class Blacks: 138
Pooer Blacks: 128

You can see that poverty is a factor. Within racial groups, Upper and Middle Class individuals scored higher than poor individuals. But POOR Whites scored higher than UPPER AND MIDDLE CLASS blacks. "Race" is a BIGGER factor. You cannot legitimately "explain" the Black/White score difference by saying it's poverty. You just can't.

[YoUDeeMan]

Cops beat their wives at twice the national rate. The POA should be apologizing to women for their low life members.

That's probably still lower than the rate of football players beating their wives.

[D1B]

Wronge again. For every study you cull from the nazi archives, there are hundreds confirming a correlation between lower intelligence and poverty.

I am not saying there is not a correlation between lower intelligence and poverty. I'm saying that when you look at National Assessment of Educational Progress scores it's not sufficient to account for the race differences. In other words. when you "control" for poverty the race factor persists. It doesn't go away.

And I'm not culling a study from NAZI archives. I'm citing US Department of Eduction National Assessment of Educational Progress results that you can get by using the query available at http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/naepdata/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (click "Main NDE".)

Really, D. I'm not fudging or deceiving here. The numbers are what they are. This is what you get when you break it down by race and Socioeconomic Status as defined by being eligible for the school lunch program or not:

Upper and Middle Class Whites: 165
Poor Whites: 146
Upper and Middle Class Blacks: 138
Pooer Blacks: 128

You can see that poverty is a factor. Within racial groups, Upper and Middle Class individuals scored higher than poor individuals. But POOR Whites scored higher than UPPER AND MIDDLE CLASS blacks. "Race" is a BIGGER factor. You cannot legitimately "explain" the Black/White score difference by saying it's poverty. You just can't.

Wronge again. Your evidence is only comparing the income of the parents and assumes all things equal if income is equal.

The gap cannot be easily explained. Contrary to what might be expected, Meredith Phillips and her colleagues suggest in The Black-White Test Score Gap that parents' income differences by themselves have almost no effect on children's test scores. Rather, they urge us to look further back in a child's family tree.

Whether or not a parent follows the middle-class parenting practices that are most likely to increase a child's chances of doing well in school--having books at home, reading to the child, taking her on a trip to the museum, for example--depends on how the parent was raised. Even when black and white parents have the same test scores, educational attainment, income, wealth and number of children, black parents are more likely to have grown up in less-advantaged households. So part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced.

pbs.org

[kalm]

I am not saying there is not a correlation between lower intelligence and poverty. I'm saying that when you look at National Assessment of Educational Progress scores it's not sufficient to account for the race differences. In other words. when you "control" for poverty the race factor persists. It doesn't go away.

And I'm not culling a study from NAZI archives. I'm citing US Department of Eduction National Assessment of Educational Progress results that you can get by using the query available at http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/naepdata/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (click "Main NDE".)

Really, D. I'm not fudging or deceiving here. The numbers are what they are. This is what you get when you break it down by race and Socioeconomic Status as defined by being eligible for the school lunch program or not:

Upper and Middle Class Whites: 165
Poor Whites: 146
Upper and Middle Class Blacks: 138
Pooer Blacks: 128

You can see that poverty is a factor. Within racial groups, Upper and Middle Class individuals scored higher than poor individuals. But POOR Whites scored higher than UPPER AND MIDDLE CLASS blacks. "Race" is a BIGGER factor. You cannot legitimately "explain" the Black/White score difference by saying it's poverty. You just can't.

Wronge again. Your evidence is only comparing the income of the parents and assumes all things equal if income is equal.

The gap cannot be easily explained. Contrary to what might be expected, Meredith Phillips and her colleagues suggest in The Black-White Test Score Gap that parents' income differences by themselves have almost no effect on children's test scores. Rather, they urge us to look further back in a child's family tree.

Whether or not a parent follows the middle-class parenting practices that are most likely to increase a child's chances of doing well in school--having books at home, reading to the child, taking her on a trip to the museum, for example--depends on how the parent was raised. Even when black and white parents have the same test scores, educational attainment, income, wealth and number of children, black parents are more likely to have grown up in less-advantaged households. So part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced.

pbs.org

John is simpleton. His answer would be why don't blacks visit more museums...

[YoUDeeMan]

Wronge again. Your evidence is only comparing the income of the parents and assumes all things equal if income is equal.

The gap cannot be easily explained. Contrary to what might be expected, Meredith Phillips and her colleagues suggest in The Black-White Test Score Gap that parents' income differences by themselves have almost no effect on children's test scores. Rather, they urge us to look further back in a child's family tree.

Whether or not a parent follows the middle-class parenting practices that are most likely to increase a child's chances of doing well in school--having books at home, reading to the child, taking her on a trip to the museum, for example--depends on how the parent was raised. Even when black and white parents have the same test scores, educational attainment, income, wealth and number of children, black parents are more likely to have grown up in less-advantaged households. So part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced.

pbs.org

Uhhh...your own source uses the words, "part", and, "may."

[D1B]

Wronge again. Your evidence is only comparing the income of the parents and assumes all things equal if income is equal.



pbs.org

Uhhh...your own source uses the words, "part", and, "may."

Its a complex issue. I'm confident theyre on the right track.

[houndawg]

Cops beat their wives at twice the national rate. The POA should be apologizing to women for their low life members.

You couldn't carry a bad cop's jock, HD.

Nothing you have ever done in your miserable life will ever come remotely as close to being as stressful as being a cop.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but your liberal high horse doesn't elevate you to anything approaching the stature of the 99.99% of cops who go to work every night and do their jobs well.

You're the first pussy to call the cops because you cant screw up the balls to walk next door yourself to tell your neighbor to
turn down his Justin Bieber.

"your miserable life", "your liberal high horse", "pussy", "can't screw up the balls".

Exhibit A of butthurtness at lack of hero worship by he who has been everywhere and done everything.
I've never called the cops in my life; they would have been too late every time.

[CID1990]

You couldn't carry a bad cop's jock, HD.

Nothing you have ever done in your miserable life will ever come remotely as close to being as stressful as being a cop.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior, but your liberal high horse doesn't elevate you to anything approaching the stature of the 99.99% of cops who go to work every night and do their jobs well.

You're the first pussy to call the cops because you cant screw up the balls to walk next door yourself to tell your neighbor to
turn down his Justin Bieber.

"your miserable life", "your liberal high horse", "pussy", "can't screw up the balls".

Exhibit A of butthurtness at lack of hero worship by he who has been everywhere and done everything.
I've never called the cops in my life; they would have been too late every time.

Nobody wants you to worship them, HD. The fact that you think they DO speaks volumes about you.

You're just a little douche, that's all.

[houndawg]

"your miserable life", "your liberal high horse", "pussy", "can't screw up the balls".

Exhibit A of butthurtness at lack of hero worship by he who has been everywhere and done everything.
I've never called the cops in my life; they would have been too late every time.

Nobody wants you to worship them, HD. The fact that you think they DO speaks volumes about you.

You're just a little douche, that's all.

Thanks bro. That means a lot to me coming from you.

[Chizzang]

The studies I read regarding race and employment bemoan the complete lack of interest blacks and Hispanics have in technical fields and sciences

The reason there is a lack of interest is because there's a lack of ability. You're not interested in doing something you can't do. And the reason there is talk about a "lack of interest" is an aversion to talk about a lack of aptitude.

On my flight last night to Sacramento I helped a 10th grade kid with his math homework
He was coming home from Grandma's house for Thanksgiving

10th grade algebra is tougher than I remember it being... I had to seriously put on my thinking cap

I'm not sure I could pass any kind of advanced math IQ test these days

[kalm]

The reason there is a lack of interest is because there's a lack of ability. You're not interested in doing something you can't do. And the reason there is talk about a "lack of interest" is an aversion to talk about a lack of aptitude.

On my flight last night to Sacramento I helped a 10th grade kid with his math homework
He was coming home from Grandma's house for Thanksgiving

10th grade algebra is tougher than I remember it being... I had to seriously put on my thinking cap

I'm not sure I could pass any kind of advanced math IQ test these days

I keep trying to help the boys (6th and 8th grades) with their math. They keep coming back with incompletes and F's.