Libertarians are the New Communists

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Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by kalm »

I actually stumbled across this article while skimming through reason.com where editor Nick Gillespie has a rather scathing review of it: http://reason.com/blog/2013/09/06/liber ... unists-and" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :lol: I was surprised that the editor of Reason would so willingly defend the Koch's because, as this article points out, they truly are economic royalists who have totally benefitted from big government and are very willing players in the game.

It's a bit hyperbolic but none-the-less interesting - especially regarding the struggle within the GOP between the likes of Rand Paul and Ted Cruz and the establishment conks:
Some of the radical libertarians are Ayn Rand fans who divide their fellow citizens into makers, in the mold of John Galt, and takers, in the mold of anyone not John Galt.

Some, such as the Koch brothers, are economic royalists who repackage trickle-down economics as “libertarian populism.” Some are followers of Texas Senator Ted Cruz, whose highest aspiration is to shut down government. Some resemble the anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, who has made a career out of trying to drown, stifle or strangle government.

Yes, liberty is a core American value, and an overweening state can be unhealthy. And there are plenty of self-described libertarians who have adopted the label mainly because they support same-sex marriage or decry government surveillance. These social libertarians aren’t the problem. It is the nihilist anti-state libertarians of the Koch-Cruz-Norquist-Paul (Ron and Rand alike) school who should worry us.

Like communism, this philosophy is defective in its misreading of human nature, misunderstanding of how societies work and utter failure to adapt to changing circumstances. Radical libertarianism assumes that humans are wired only to be selfish, when in fact cooperation is the height of human evolution. It assumes that societies are efficient mechanisms requiring no rules or enforcers, when, in fact, they are fragile ecosystems prone to collapse and easily overwhelmed by free-riders. And it is fanatically rigid in its insistence on a single solution to every problem: Roll back the state!

Communism failed in three strikingly similar ways. It believed that humans should be willing cogs serving the proletariat. It assumed that societies could be run top-down like machines. And it, too, was fanatically rigid in its insistence on an all-encompassing ideology, leading to totalitarianism.

Radical libertarianism, if ever put into practice at the scale of something bigger than a tiny enclave, would also be a disaster.
We say the conditional “would” because radical libertarianism has a fatal flaw: It can’t be applied across a functioning society. What might radical libertarians do if they actually had power? A President Paul would rule by tantrum, shutting down the government in order to repeal laws already passed by Congress. A Secretary Norquist would eliminate the Internal Revenue Service and progressive taxation, so that the already wealthy could exponentially compound their advantage, as the programs that sustain a prosperous middle class are gutted. A Koch domestic policy would obliterate environmental standards for clean air and water, so that polluters could externalize all their costs onto other people.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-0 ... nists.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by Ibanez »

Bloomberg as the source tells me all I need to know.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote:Bloomberg as the source tells me all I need to know.
I also linked to Reason.com which is the most prominent libertarian rag around. These are both "think" pieces so I can see why you'd wanna bow out of the discussion early. :ohno:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by CAA Flagship »

Libertarians :lol:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by kalm »

CAA Flagship wrote:Libertarians :lol:
They're probably the best hope for your party. :coffee:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote:Libertarians :lol:
They're probably the best hope for your party. :coffee:
Well I hope they are bringing a side dish to share. :kisswink:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by kalm »

CAA Flagship wrote:
kalm wrote:
They're probably the best hope for your party. :coffee:
Well I hope they are bringing a side dish to share. :kisswink:
See? This is exactly what they're driving at. It's all about what others bring you isn't it? Typical "taker" mentality. :ohno:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote:
Ibanez wrote:Bloomberg as the source tells me all I need to know.
I also linked to Reason.com which is the most prominent libertarian rag around. These are both "think" pieces so I can see why you'd wanna bow out of the discussion early. :ohno:
:tothehand: :lol:

I read articles on reason, they aren't too bias. This article did a good job at squashing the bullshit in the bloomberg article.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by blueballs »

The article is solidly from the left as it identifies Paul and Cruz as extremists, when in fact their opinions are widely held by most middle class folks.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote: Well I hope they are bringing a side dish to share. :kisswink:
See? This is exactly what they're driving at. It's all about what others bring you isn't it? Typical "taker" mentality. :ohno:
Taker?
I said "side" dish and I said "share". That means I am covering the main course. My "take" is less than my "production". :tothehand: :finger: :mrgreen:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by Grizalltheway »

blueballs wrote:The article is solidly from the left as it identifies Paul and Cruz as extremists, when in fact their opinions are widely held by most middle class folks.
Didn't you just chastize me for questioning the accuracy of an article based on the political leanings of the author? :roll:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by kalm »

CAA Flagship wrote:
kalm wrote:
See? This is exactly what they're driving at. It's all about what others bring you isn't it? Typical "taker" mentality. :ohno:
Taker?
I said "side" dish and I said "share". That means I am covering the main course. My "take" is less than my "production". :tothehand: :finger: :mrgreen:
Oh...so now we're "shaaaaring"...fucking commie. :ohno:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by kalm »

blueballs wrote:The article is solidly from the left as it identifies Paul and Cruz as extremists, when in fact their opinions are widely held by most middle class folks.
Some are but not the ones relating entitlement programs, the environment, subsidized education etc.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote: Taker?
I said "side" dish and I said "share". That means I am covering the main course. My "take" is less than my "production". :tothehand: :finger: :mrgreen:
Oh...so now we're "shaaaaring"...fucking commie. :ohno:
Hmmm. I hadn't thought of that. :? You have a point there. Thanks for the heads up. :thumb:

Next time someone brings a dish to share, I will call them a communist. :evil:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by Ivytalk »

Not sure how much new thought is in this piece, which I read in its entirety. The authors (one of whom worked for Clinton) set up the very "straw man" they purport to dismantle, in playing off "radical libertarianism" against communism, in order to set up a "golden mean" which reserves a role for government in promoting social well-being. The fact is that neither extreme works, and the authors are candid enough to recognize that. It will be interesting to see how much national traction Rand Paul gets, either within or beyond the GOP. For a new legislator, he's unusually in love with himself, and it's not at all clear that he'll be any more effective than his father was. :twocents:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by CitadelGrad »

Ivytalk wrote:Not sure how much new thought is in this piece, which I read in its entirety. The authors (one of whom worked for Clinton) set up the very "straw man" they purport to dismantle, in playing off "radical libertarianism" against communism, in order to set up a "golden mean" which reserves a role for government in promoting social well-being. The fact is that neither extreme works, and the authors are candid enough to recognize that. It will be interesting to see how much national traction Rand Paul gets, either within or beyond the GOP. For a new legislator, he's unusually in love with himself, and it's not at all clear that he'll be any more effective than his father was. :twocents:
Rand Paul started from a different point than his father and under different circumstances. Ron Paul was a lone voice in the wind during an era of GOP vs. Dem politics. Today, libertarian ideas are gaining traction (thanks in large part to Ron Paul), so Rand is hardly a lone voice in the wind.

The dichotomy is now different. There is a recognition that the difference between the GOP and Dems is largely limited to differences in rhetoric. The policies and results tend to be the same. We are now seeing a transition from GOP vs. Dem to libertarianism vs. statism/authoritarianism.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by LeadBolt »

CAA Flagship wrote:
kalm wrote:
Oh...so now we're "shaaaaring"...**** commie. :ohno:
Hmmm. I hadn't thought of that. :? You have a point there. Thanks for the heads up. :thumb:

Next time someone brings a dish to share, I will call them a communist. :evil:
Wouldn't it depend on whether they are sharing on their own volition with whom they chose or whether the government was confiscating someone else's property and sharing it with whom the government wants to? :rofl:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by blueballs »

Grizalltheway wrote:
blueballs wrote:The article is solidly from the left as it identifies Paul and Cruz as extremists, when in fact their opinions are widely held by most middle class folks.
Didn't you just chastize me for questioning the accuracy of an article based on the political leanings of the author? :roll:
That wasn't my intention at all... 8-)

IvyTalk said what I was thinking... I didn'tcommunicate it very well- he communicated it very well.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by dbackjon »

blueballs wrote:The article is solidly from the left as it identifies Paul and Cruz as extremists, when in fact their opinions are widely held by most middle class folks.

Only to those extremist middle class folks. Cruz and Paul ARE extremists.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by houndawg »

Ivytalk wrote:Not sure how much new thought is in this piece, which I read in its entirety. The authors (one of whom worked for Clinton) set up the very "straw man" they purport to dismantle, in playing off "radical libertarianism" against communism, in order to set up a "golden mean" which reserves a role for government in promoting social well-being. The fact is that neither extreme works, and the authors are candid enough to recognize that. It will be interesting to see how much national traction Rand Paul gets, either within or beyond the GOP. For a new legislator, he's unusually in love with himself, and it's not at all clear that he'll be any more effective than his father was. :twocents:

Little to none, imo, unless he can stay off of TV. Dude is too creepy to appeal to anyone outside the Tea Party and maybe Westboro Baptist Church.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by houndawg »

dbackjon wrote:
blueballs wrote:The article is solidly from the left as it identifies Paul and Cruz as extremists, when in fact their opinions are widely held by most middle class folks.

Only to those extremist middle class folks. Cruz and Paul ARE extremists.
What is this "middle class" of which you speak? :?
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by Grizalltheway »

blueballs wrote:
Grizalltheway wrote:
Didn't you just chastize me for questioning the accuracy of an article based on the political leanings of the author? :roll:
That wasn't my intention at all... 8-)

IvyTalk said what I was thinking... I didn'tcommunicate it very well- he communicated it very well.
Fair enough. :thumb:
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by DSUrocks07 »

We're "communists"? :rofl:

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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by JohnStOnge »

As is the case with many critics of Libertarianism, the author sets up a false premise:
Radical libertarianism assumes that humans are wired only to be selfish, when in fact cooperation is the height of human evolution. It assumes that societies are efficient mechanisms requiring no rules or enforcers.
None of the people the authors reference espouse such a philosophy. None of them believe in a society with no rules or enforcers. And that's not what Libertarianism is.

Ted Cruz, for example, would never say that there should be no rules against murder or robbery. Nor would he say there should be no enforcers of such rules.

It's a nice trick...setting up a false premise then going on the attack. But it's just a trick.
Last edited by JohnStOnge on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarians are the New Communists

Post by JohnStOnge »

It is in failed states such as Somalia that libertarianism finds its fullest actual expression.
Another example. What's going on in Somalia is not Libertarianism. The authors are basically lying.
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