Capital Punishment

[bluehenbillk]

Last night's last-minute appeal fiasco is picture proof that the appeals process in death penalty cases needs to be scaled back.

[89Hen]

For it.

Look just to Baltimore City/County for your answer.

Baltimore City - sky high murder rate - AG refuses to use death penalty
Baltimore County - small murder rate - AG uses DP everytime possible
It is a deterant.

C'mon Andy. That's the only difference between county and city?

[89Hen]

I guess here's the second question... what is the benefit of capital punishment?

We should be allowed to harvest the organs. I'm pretty sure the law currently prevents it, that law should be changed.

[89Hen]

Bullshit. It is a fetus, nothing more than a gallbladder, inside the body of a voting, tax-paying member of society. It's her body, her choice.

That's your opinion.

[89Hen]

I'm against it. On general principle. I don't believe there is any justice in vengeance. While personally there are times where I'd love nothing more than to see someone die for the horrible things they've done, I cannot justify society killing someone for a crime - no matter how heinous, as a matter of principle.

While that can be tough to accept sometimes, especially when the emotions of a particular case run high - those are the moments when we need to turn to a system that is rooted in a principle of justice rather than vengeance.

It's all fine and well to talk tough and adopt a Dirty Harry attitude about it all, because in the abstract you are never the one standing accused, perhaps falsely, of a crime.

That's pretty much my position now TTBF.

[Cap'n Cat]

Bullshit. It is a fetus, nothing more than a gallbladder, inside the body of a voting, tax-paying member of society. It's her body, her choice.

That's your opinion.

Really?

[89Hen]

That's your opinion.

Really?

Yes. Really.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

I'm against it. On general principle. I don't believe there is any justice in vengeance. While personally there are times where I'd love nothing more than to see someone die for the horrible things they've done, I cannot justify society killing someone for a crime - no matter how heinous, as a matter of principle.

While that can be tough to accept sometimes, especially when the emotions of a particular case run high - those are the moments when we need to turn to a system that is rooted in a principle of justice rather than vengeance.

It's all fine and well to talk tough and adopt a Dirty Harry attitude about it all, because in the abstract you are never the one standing accused, perhaps falsely, of a crime.

If I was accused and innocent, I wouldn't worry about meeting my maker. We are all gonna die someday. (I'm still looking for loopholes!) There has to be vengence and punishment for what people do. It is way to often that people never take responsibility for what they do and always try to make excuses. If someone does something bad enough, they should own up and just use the death penalty on themselves. Then we wouldn't have to worry about it but most never have the balls to do it so we need to. They think they will get away with it and can do horrible things to people and not pay a price. Many times there is nothing we can do to make some of these criminals pay for what they did. There is not an argument that I have heard that can convince me the death penalty is not needed in some cases. There are simply some evil bastards that do not deserve to breath, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I'm against it. On general principle. I don't believe there is any justice in vengeance. While personally there are times where I'd love nothing more than to see someone die for the horrible things they've done, I cannot justify society killing someone for a crime - no matter how heinous, as a matter of principle.

While that can be tough to accept sometimes, especially when the emotions of a particular case run high - those are the moments when we need to turn to a system that is rooted in a principle of justice rather than vengeance.

It's all fine and well to talk tough and adopt a Dirty Harry attitude about it all, because in the abstract you are never the one standing accused, perhaps falsely, of a crime.

If I was accused and innocent, I wouldn't worry about meeting my maker. We are all gonna die someday. (I'm still looking for loopholes!)

Tell that to your wife and kids (or whatever) are left in you wake to deal with your unjust, state-sanctioned murder.

[89Hen]

There has to be vengence and punishment for what people do... There are simply some evil bastards that do not deserve to breath, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Why does there have to be vengeance?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I'm against it. On general principle. I don't believe there is any justice in vengeance. While personally there are times where I'd love nothing more than to see someone die for the horrible things they've done, I cannot justify society killing someone for a crime - no matter how heinous, as a matter of principle.

While that can be tough to accept sometimes, especially when the emotions of a particular case run high - those are the moments when we need to turn to a system that is rooted in a principle of justice rather than vengeance.

It's all fine and well to talk tough and adopt a Dirty Harry attitude about it all, because in the abstract you are never the one standing accused, perhaps falsely, of a crime.

If I was accused and innocent, I wouldn't worry about meeting my maker. We are all gonna die someday. (I'm still looking for loopholes!) There has to be vengence and punishment for what people do. It is way to often that people never take responsibility for what they do and always try to make excuses. If someone does something bad enough, they should own up and just use the death penalty on themselves. Then we wouldn't have to worry about it but most never have the balls to do it so we need to. They think they will get away with it and can do horrible things to people and not pay a price. Many times there is nothing we can do to make some of these criminals pay for what they did. There is not an argument that I have heard that can convince me the death penalty is not needed in some cases. There are simply some evil bastards that do not deserve to breath, no ifs ands or buts about it.

There does not HAVE to be vengeance - there DOES have to be justice.

Life in prison IS a punishment. It's just not state-sanctioned murder.

Thing is, while vengeance is viscerally pleasing and generally easier. Justice has moral force behind it, and while it is harder, and at times less satisfying viscerally, it is a more righteous and more civilized.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

There has to be vengence and punishment for what people do... There are simply some evil bastards that do not deserve to breath, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Why does there have to be vengeance?

I know I for one would never rest unless there was some sort of vengence. I can't claim to be as good of a person as maybe I should be but if there isn't vengence, I know I would feel wronged even more. I wouldnt be able to let it drop. The example 93 had in this thread is enough to make me want vengence against that asshole. He should have been hung by the neck until dead years ago and that is the least cruel way I think he should be executed. The innocent people he has hurt and lives he has helped destroy are countless and he has to be held accountable. Breathing in a cell, watching tv, having vistors is just not what I call vengence or punishment or justice.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Why does there have to be vengeance?

I know I for one would never rest unless there was some sort of vengence. I can't claim to be as good of a person as maybe I should be but if there isn't vengence, I know I would feel wronged even more. I wouldnt be able to let it drop. The example 93 had in this thread is enough to make me want vengence against that asshole. He should have been hung by the neck until dead years ago and that is the least cruel way I think he should be executed. The innocent people he has hurt and lives he has helped destroy are countless and he has to be held accountable. Breathing in a cell, watching tv, having vistors is just not what I call vengence or punishment or justice.

being locked in a 6x10 box every day for the rest of the life isn't a punishment?

[dbackjon]

georgia just executed a man convicted on hearsay, witnesses that later recanted, and prosecutorial misconduct.

Troy Davis more than likely did not commit the murder he was executed last night for, but that did not stop the blood lust.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

I know I for one would never rest unless there was some sort of vengence. I can't claim to be as good of a person as maybe I should be but if there isn't vengence, I know I would feel wronged even more. I wouldnt be able to let it drop. The example 93 had in this thread is enough to make me want vengence against that asshole. He should have been hung by the neck until dead years ago and that is the least cruel way I think he should be executed. The innocent people he has hurt and lives he has helped destroy are countless and he has to be held accountable. Breathing in a cell, watching tv, having vistors is just not what I call vengence or punishment or justice.

being locked in a 6x10 box every day for the rest of the life isn't a punishment?

Really depends on the crime. If they stole a car and didn't hurt someone then yes. The rape and molest hundreds of kids than the answer is no.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

georgia just executed a man convicted on hearsay, witnesses that later recanted, and prosecutorial misconduct.

Troy Davis more than likely did not commit the murder he was executed last night for, but that did not stop the blood lust.

I was appalled at this - but the only thing that appalled me more was watching that GOP debate where the crowd roared in approval at Rick Perry killing hundreds of people...

[Appaholic]

There has to be vengence and punishment for what people do... There are simply some evil bastards that do not deserve to breath, no ifs ands or buts about it.

Why does there have to be vengeance?

Agree. There should be punishment. But vengeance is a luxury our criminal justice system supposedly rooted in moral tenets cannot afford while maintaining it's credibility. While I believe there are plenty of acts committed that a person should die for, I do not think I can trust the State in determining and executing this punishment given their track record. Everytime I feel that bile rising in my throat when informed of a new atrocity committed on an innocent victim, I remember my last visit to the DMV....that's the mentality you are trusting to mete out life & death decisions. If UtahGriz and others feel so strongly about vengeance, then take it out on that person....they deserved it, no?

[dbackjon]

georgia just executed a man convicted on hearsay, witnesses that later recanted, and prosecutorial misconduct.

Troy Davis more than likely did not commit the murder he was executed last night for, but that did not stop the blood lust.

I was appalled at this - but the only thing that appalled me more was watching that GOP debate where the crowd roared in approval at Rick Perry killing hundreds of people...

Even Bob Barr is appalled at it:

http://www.11alive.com/news/article/206 ... principles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles stood between life and death for Troy Anthony Davis, and the core principles of American jurisprudence should have been the board's guide. But the board ignored those principles in denying Davis clemency.

Davis was convicted in 1991 of the 1989 murder of Savannah police officer Mark MacPhail. But the trial included no physical evidence to support his conviction. The prosecution produced no murder weapon, no DNA evidence and no surveillance tapes.

He was sentenced to death on the basis of nine so-called eyewitnesses, who testified in the trial. Seven of those witnesses, however, have since recanted or materially changed their stories. The jury, for instance, relied on two people who did not witness the crime but who testified that Davis had confessed to the shooting. Since then, both have said they were lying.

[89Hen]

Why does there have to be vengeance?

I know I for one would never rest unless there was some sort of vengence. I can't claim to be as good of a person as maybe I should be but if there isn't vengence, I know I would feel wronged even more. I wouldnt be able to let it drop. The example 93 had in this thread is enough to make me want vengence against that asshole. He should have been hung by the neck until dead years ago and that is the least cruel way I think he should be executed. The innocent people he has hurt and lives he has helped destroy are countless and he has to be held accountable. Breathing in a cell, watching tv, having vistors is just not what I call vengence or punishment or justice.

That's close to a mob with torches IMO.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I know I for one would never rest unless there was some sort of vengence. I can't claim to be as good of a person as maybe I should be but if there isn't vengence, I know I would feel wronged even more. I wouldnt be able to let it drop. The example 93 had in this thread is enough to make me want vengence against that asshole. He should have been hung by the neck until dead years ago and that is the least cruel way I think he should be executed. The innocent people he has hurt and lives he has helped destroy are countless and he has to be held accountable. Breathing in a cell, watching tv, having vistors is just not what I call vengence or punishment or justice.

That's close to a mob with torches IMO.

Indeed - precisely the reason we as individuals empower an institution to act more rationally than we are sometimes capable of acting.

[89Hen]

Hey TTBF, is capital punishment something that is generally divided on political lines? I honestly don't know.

[native]

... I know I for one would never rest unless there was some sort of vengence. ...hung by the neck until dead years ago and that is the least cruel way I think he should be executed. The innocent people he has hurt and lives he has helped destroy are countless and he has to be held accountable. Breathing in a cell, watching tv, having vistors is just not what I call vengence or punishment or justice.

1. The act of execution itself is not cruel or unusual. Executing the wong person, however, is unjust far beyond mere cruelty.

2. I would choose the word "justice" instead of the word "vengeance." Neither is the same as "mob mentality."

3. We should expend our resources protecting innocent children and true victims, not criminals.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Hey TTBF, is capital punishment something that is generally divided on political lines? I honestly don't know.

yes and no.

I'd say about 60-70% of Dems are against it - but many moderates are for it.
I'd say (based on my experiences) about 25-30% of GOPers are against it. (many because they are "pro-life" no matter what)
"independents" such as they are - probably run about 30-40% against...

*none of this is based on polling - just estimates based on experience - i reserve the right to revise and edit my remarks based upon someone else being more willing to google than i am.

[Vidav]

Is it worse to wrongly execute an innocent person or to wrongly keep an innocent person in prison for the rest of their life? Is that life they get in prison better or worse than death?

[Rob Iola]

Is it worse to wrongly execute an innocent person or to wrongly keep an innocent person in prison for the rest of their life? Is that life they get in prison better or worse than death?

It's worse to wrongly execute an innocent person.