Why Does The US Not Have High Speed Rail?

[Cap'n Cat]

And not even just in a negative sense - most of what OSHA and the EPA and the NHTSA and others do is very valuable and something that we should have. But it does get in the way of efficiency - something we have and would still gladly trade for the benefits we get from having the regulations.

However, and not to be argumentative, we continue playing the global economic game by a different set of rules yet guys like cappy continue to wonder why countries like China and India and South Korea are catching us and/or passing us by from an economic and productivity standpoint. Hell, we fight wars the same way, and wonder why we don't win.

Um, dicknose, I "wonder" no such thing. Our system suffers for those very reasons, but we will never get around them because most offer value. We are no longer in a place to dictate what the world is to do. We haven't been for 40 years. Vietnam, the Cold War and the 1973 Oil Embargo and Watergate exposed our soft underbelly.

"Minor" eruptions such as the above began The Age of the Dark Man, which started in earnest in Septmber of 2001. We are in a decline, recovery from which will never occur.

[Grizalltheway]

However, and not to be argumentative, we continue playing the global economic game by a different set of rules yet guys like cappy continue to wonder why countries like China and India and South Korea are catching us and/or passing us by from an economic and productivity standpoint. Hell, we fight wars the same way, and wonder why we don't win.

Um, dicknose, I "wonder" no such thing. Our system suffers for those very reasons, but we will never get around them because most offer value. We are no longer in a place to dictate what the world is to do. We haven't been for 40 years. Vietnam, the Cold War and the 1973 Oil Embargo and Watergate exposed our soft underbelly.

"Minor" eruptions such as the above began The Age of the Dark Man, which started in earnest in Septmber of 2001. We are in a decline, recovery from which will never occur.

Eh, it's not like we're going to turn into Ethiopia, or anything. Like you said, we just need to get used to the idea of not being the only swinging dick on the world stage, like we have been since '89.

[Cap'n Cat]

Um, dicknose, I "wonder" no such thing. Our system suffers for those very reasons, but we will never get around them because most offer value. We are no longer in a place to dictate what the world is to do. We haven't been for 40 years. Vietnam, the Cold War and the 1973 Oil Embargo and Watergate exposed our soft underbelly.

"Minor" eruptions such as the above began The Age of the Dark Man, which started in earnest in Septmber of 2001. We are in a decline, recovery from which will never occur.

Eh, it's not like we're going to turn into Ethiopia, or anything. Like you said, we just need to get used to the idea of not being the only swinging dick on the world stage, like we have been since '89.

We may not turn into Ethipia, certainly. I'm thinking more post-Soviet Russia.

[Gil Dobie]

The banks got all the bailout money and won't loan the goverment money to build a high speed rail system.

[Gil Dobie]

We may not turn into Ethipia, certainly. I'm thinking more post-Soviet Russia.

The USA already has people that live like that

[SeattleGriz]

http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/_new ... -the-rails

Also, they talk about a 23 mile sea bridge that cost $2.3B and only took four years to build. ??? Here, it woulda cost $40B and taken 12 years.

Discuss.

I understand those that didn't meet the work quota on the bridge were cut up and had their organs sold.

[Grizalltheway]

We may not turn into Ethipia, certainly. I'm thinking more post-Soviet Russia.

The USA already has people that live like that

Looks like they aren't making good use of their monthly checks and free college education.

[ODUsmitty]

We may very well be passed in terms of economic output (by China, not sure if ever by South Korea) but not productivity. China's got 1.3B people putting out the same economic output that 300M Americans are doing - that makes us about 3x more productive.

Not to mention, China won't pass us in economic output until 2020, at the earliest, and they'll probably have 1.4 billion by then.

There is a very simple reason the Chinese are not as productive as Americans. With all of that naive, sweet, soy-marinated poontang readily available, it is easy to get distracted from one's work.

[CID1990]

If there was money to be made in high speed rail in the US people would've gone down that road (er, rail) years ago. Problem is, most railroads need to be subsidized by the government to just break even, and that's just after everything has been made and laid out. And in the US, you'd never be able to build a high speed rail, at least not near where anyone would live. The space you need to build it just isn't there, no one would want it in their backyard, and the safety measures that would be necessary to protect against accident and the litigation that would follow would be so dramatic that they would also inflate the costs. When it comes down to it, there are plenty of cheaper, less capital intensive ways to travel other than high speed rail.

As for building bridges, I agree, things cost way too much and take way too long. But that's the price to be paid for paying decent labor wages - it just means that you end up having fewer workers per project and things take longer. Heck, if you see a road get built in China you see the road crew basically sleep by the road they are building. You can get a lot more done when you don't have to go home to a family for months on end.

We have to get out of our cars first.

In DC lots of people are out of their cars.

Look to the DC Metro as your answer to why high speed rail on a national scale would be a fiasco.

[Gil Dobie]

Looks like they aren't making good use of their monthly checks and free college education.

How much are their monthly checks?

Average income is approx $6000 per year, dropout rate is 70% on the Pine Ridge Rez. Free college for those that can get through high school.

[kalm]

Gannon is spot on here. Many of the reasons it would cost so much are what also create and support our higher standard of living.

I think we're better of focusing on local and maybe regional efficiencies.

[SDHornet]

As much as I like the idea of us implementing a high speed rail system, I think it would have limited success. I do think it would compete well against airlines for the shorter routes (like the CA high speed rail might do) but I don’t see a purpose in a trans-national HSR line. Amtrack isn’t profitable so I wouldn’t expect a HSR system to be profitable either.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Because we are not a fu*king 3rd world country.

And yes.................if you have high speed rail you are a 3rd world POS country.

[grizzaholic]

Drive or get on a fucking plane. Instead of spending money on a high speed rail...how about fixing some roads/bridges?

[travelinman67]

http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/_new ... -the-rails

Also, they talk about a 23 mile sea bridge that cost $2.3B and only took four years to build. ??? Here, it woulda cost $40B and taken 12 years.

Discuss.

Here, we have OSHA, EPA, Greenpeace, NHTSA, etc., etc., etc. all delaying the completion and driving up the end cost. In China somebody just writes a check.

BINGO!!!

This, plus Davis-Bacon Wage blackmail.

Read the detailed proposals/estimates. The permitting, studies, regulatory and enviromental mitigation is beyond comprehension. Most, if not all, include mitigation which includes land preservation (i.e., in kind land purchase/set aside). That in effect doubles the cost of land acquisition. Worse, the land acquired for mitigation often requires remediation (removal of existing structures/infrastructures) not to mention exhaustive studies to determine the appropriateness of the land within the context of the environmental study. Furthermore, there's generally an escrow account established with a reserve equalling 10%+ of the acquisition. (To put this in perspective, the reserve required for the new CA Bay Bridge being built was around $480M. The payback is amortized, so the state won't close the account for 15+ years.). I've reviewed two projects out here in the central valley in the past 5 years in which the preservation acquisition costs EXCEEDED the entire cost of the project less the set-aside.
Most people are not aware of the absurd requirements to complete a study, obtain funding, begin and follow through to completion, an infrastructure project in excess of $50m.
The last issue, of course, is legal challenge. It is assumed that all projects in excess of $400,000 will face a legal challenge, which, of course, can increase the cost from (approx) 5-17%.

And yes, I authored articles and taught cost-accounting within the manufacturing and construction industries for for 13 years. The factors/percentages are accurate.

[travelinman67]

As much as I like the idea of us implementing a high speed rail system, I think it would have limited success. I do think it would compete well against airlines for the shorter routes (like the CA high speed rail might do) but I don’t see a purpose in a trans-national HSR line. Amtrack isn’t profitable so I wouldn’t expect a HSR system to be profitable either.

Citizens Against Govt. Waste's due diligence study on the CA project from 2008.

http://reason.org/files/1b544eba6f1d5f9 ... 76ea7e.pdf

The CA High Speed Rail Commission couldn't refute the report (and the sources who quoted from it), so they hired Ogilvy Public Relations to push back.

Ogilvy couldn't, so the Commission fired them this past week.

Add to this, the funding profile...(kick start the habit with govt. funding...in the cheapest-to-build areas to get the "addiction" established, then, as the project moves closer to the urban/financially benefitting area, extort remaining funding from private sector to move the heroin supplier [consumer/passengers] closer to home).
Ultimate plan is a feeder train from SF through Central Valley to Anaheim (CA's entertainment capitol).

http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/image ... onPlan.pdf

This is just another pathetic expenditure of tax dollars that would benefit the entertainment industry.

Wanna help the country? Build infrastructure that benefits manufacturing/agriculture.

[catamount man]

Obama missed the opportunity to be the "Infrastructure President". Dividends would take years to realize, but they would be there, eventually.

YEP! Want to invest in America, rebuild it. Complete agreement friend!