http://m.courierpress.com/news/2011/may ... awful-pol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;People have no right to resist if police officers illegally enter their home, the Indiana Supreme Court ruled in a decision that overturns centuries of common law.
The court issued its 3-2 ruling on Thursday, contending that allowing residents to resist officers who enter their homes without any right would increase the risk of violent confrontation. If police enter a home illegally, the courts are the proper place to protest it, Justice Steven David said.
"We believe ... a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence," David said. "We also find that allowing resistance unnecessarily escalates the level of violence and therefore the risk of injuries to all parties involved without preventing the arrest."
Justices Robert Rucker and Brent Dickson strongly dissented, saying the ruling runs afoul of the U.S. Constitution's Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure, The Times of Munster reported.
"In my view the majority sweeps with far too broad a brush by essentially telling Indiana citizens that government agents may now enter their homes illegally — that is, without the necessity of a warrant, consent or exigent circumstances," Rucker said.
Both dissenting justices suggested they would have supported the ruling if the court had limited its scope to stripping the right to resist officers who enter homes illegally in cases where they suspect domestic violence is being committed.
But Dickson said, "The wholesale abrogation of the historic right of a person to reasonably resist unlawful police entry into his dwelling is unwarranted and unnecessarily broad."
The court's decision stemmed from a Vanderburgh County case in which a man yelled at police and blocked them from entering his apartment to investigate a domestic disturbance. The man shoved a police officer who entered anyway and was shocked with a stun gun and arrested.
Valparaiso University School of Law professor Ivan Bodensteiner told The Times that the court's decision is consistent with the idea of preventing violence.
"It's not surprising that they would say there's no right to beat the hell out of the officer," Bodensteiner said. "(The court is saying) we would rather opt on the side of saying if the police act wrongfully in entering your house your remedy is under law, to bring a civil action against the officer."
Thursday's decision was the court's second ruling this week involving police entry into a home.
On Tuesday, the court said police serving a warrant may enter a home without knocking if officers decide circumstances justify it. Previously, police serving a warrant had to obtain a judge's permission to enter without knocking.
No right to resist unlawful police entry:
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No right to resist unlawful police entry:
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
I'm not really upset about this - why wouldn't a court be a good place to establish that the police entered unlawfully? I like the law professor's slant - why is beating the crap out of a police officer (or worse even) a better way of doing this?
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
because a court takes time and can't even be done until after the fact. you should be able to take care of it in court as well, though.GannonFan wrote:I'm not really upset about this - why wouldn't a court be a good place to establish that the police entered unlawfully? I like the law professor's slant - why is beating the crap out of a police officer (or worse even) a better way of doing this?
courts are where the police are supposed to establish grounds to search LAWFULLY... BEFORE a search. The onus should be on them... to establish why the search is justified. it shouldn't be on citizens to argue after the fact why the search was unjustified.
you should also be able to prevent ANYONE from UNLAWFULLY entering your house.
care explaining how this doesn't violate the 4th amendment?
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Last edited by Skjellyfetti on Fri May 13, 2011 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
Eh, I'd rather side with the thought that someone's life could be saved by a cop choosing to enter a house without a warrant rather than letting that life expire because he hadn't gotten through to the judge yet. And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one. The place to discuss what is lawful and what isn't should be in a courtroom, not at the threshold of a house while both parties are under duress.Skjellyfetti wrote:because a court takes time and can't even be done until after the fact. you should be able to take care of it in court as well, though.GannonFan wrote:I'm not really upset about this - why wouldn't a court be a good place to establish that the police entered unlawfully? I like the law professor's slant - why is beating the crap out of a police officer (or worse even) a better way of doing this?
courts are where the police are supposed to establish grounds to search LAWFULLY... with a warrant in hand. The onus should be on them... not citizens.
you should also be able to prevent ANYONE from UNLAWFULLY entering your house.
care explaining how this doesn't violate the 4th amendment?The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
That person would be resisting a LAWFUL search and SHOULD be arrested.GannonFan wrote:And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
WE all know that the cops will be abusing this to the MAX.GannonFan wrote:Eh, I'd rather side with the thought that someone's life could be saved by a cop choosing to enter a house without a warrant rather than letting that life expire because he hadn't gotten through to the judge yet. And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one. The place to discuss what is lawful and what isn't should be in a courtroom, not at the threshold of a house while both parties are under duress.Skjellyfetti wrote:
because a court takes time and can't even be done until after the fact. you should be able to take care of it in court as well, though.
courts are where the police are supposed to establish grounds to search LAWFULLY... with a warrant in hand. The onus should be on them... not citizens.
you should also be able to prevent ANYONE from UNLAWFULLY entering your house.
care explaining how this doesn't violate the 4th amendment?
Side Note: A cop is always 5 minutes away when you need them the most.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
What if the conditions that permitted the warrant from being obtained were fradulent/made up?Skjellyfetti wrote:That person would be resisting a LAWFUL search and SHOULD be arrested.GannonFan wrote:And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
And if cops do abuse this then the courts should be there to correct that. There are certainly lots of bad cops, but there are plenty of good ones too.grizzaholic wrote:WE all know that the cops will be abusing this to the MAX.GannonFan wrote:
Eh, I'd rather side with the thought that someone's life could be saved by a cop choosing to enter a house without a warrant rather than letting that life expire because he hadn't gotten through to the judge yet. And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one. The place to discuss what is lawful and what isn't should be in a courtroom, not at the threshold of a house while both parties are under duress.
Side Note: A cop is always 5 minutes away when you need them the most.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
Then the person would be resisting an unlawful arrest and should not be arrested.GannonFan wrote:What if the conditions that permitted the warrant from being obtained were fradulent/made up?Skjellyfetti wrote:
That person would be resisting a LAWFUL search and SHOULD be arrested.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
So, in essence, what this court is saying is, if I'm sitting at home and my front door comes crashing down, I have no right to protect myself or my family...
Bad guys must love judges like this...

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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
What Col Hogan says.
"What I'm saying is: You might have taken care of your wolf problem, but everyone around town is going to think of you as the crazy son of a bitch who bought land mines to get rid of wolves."
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
I think that paragraph has several things in it that illustrate the problem with allowing courts the power and latitude we allow them. First there's the terminology "...modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence.""We believe ... a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence," David said. "We also find that allowing resistance unnecessarily escalates the level of violence and therefore the risk of injuries to all parties involved without preventing the arrest."
Why should "modern" Fourth Amendment jurisprudence be any different than old Fourth Amendment jurisprudence? The Fourth Amendment says what it says. It was understood as it was understood. If court "interpretations" of it change over time that means we are effectdively allowing courts to change the Constitution. And that shouldn't happen. The whole point of having a Constitution is to establish a set of principles and procedures that are not readily changed and there is a guard against the People changing it based on radical short term variations in majority public opinion by virtue of the Amendment process. But there is absolutely NO protection against having the Courts do it by virtue of the latitude we have allowed the Courts. And we have allowed them a latitude they were not supposed to have.
Second, Courts should not be making judgements about whether or not something "unecessarlily escalates the level of violence." That is not...or should not be... their job. Decisions on whether or not a particular policy "unecessarily" escalates violence or does anything else should be the purview of the elected branches. The ONLY job of the courts should be to divine the intent of the elected branches and or the intent of those involved in establishing or amending the Constitution. Courts should have no will of their own and they should nto be making judgements about what's "best" for the society. Again, that is not...or should not be...their job.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
Doesn't apply I don't think. I believe a cop can enter any building where there is reasonable idea that a person's life is in danger...not sure, but I don't think you're analogy would apply if this is the case. I have to agree with Skelly on this one. The onus is on the police to establish a reasonable cause to enter and search anyone's house. Protection of the police from a potentially volatile situation should not be a consideration...that's what their job entails.GannonFan wrote:Eh, I'd rather side with the thought that someone's life could be saved by a cop choosing to enter a house without a warrant rather than letting that life expire because he hadn't gotten through to the judge yet.Skjellyfetti wrote:
because a court takes time and can't even be done until after the fact. you should be able to take care of it in court as well, though.
courts are where the police are supposed to establish grounds to search LAWFULLY... with a warrant in hand. The onus should be on them... not citizens.
you should also be able to prevent ANYONE from UNLAWFULLY entering your house.
care explaining how this doesn't violate the 4th amendment?
Agree, but that fact should be established BEFORE entering the house in probable cause hearing or petition for a search warrant. Once a legal search warrant has been obtained, even if the owner makes claim that it is fraudulent, the police are well within their right to break the door down and search away...GannonFan wrote:And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one. The place to discuss what is lawful and what isn't should be in a courtroom, not at the threshold of a house while both parties are under duress.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
I'm with you...if I've done nothing wrong, I hear my door get kicked in and grab my gun I've just committed cop assisted suicide. When do I get to explain my innocence?Col Hogan wrote:So, in essence, what this court is saying is, if I'm sitting at home and my front door comes crashing down, I have no right to protect myself or my family...
Bad guys must love judges like this...![]()
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
But I don't get where you're going, though. Like you said, a cop can already enter a building without a warrant if there's exigent circumstances (i.e. they don't need to have a probably cause hearing or petition for a search warrant). But the exigent circumstances are determined by the police officer on the spot and often in a rather quick determination. If the guy in the building thinks it's not legal, based on his own determination, are you saying it should be fine for him to resist? And if so, how much force is he allowed to resist with? Frankly, I don't see how this is vastly different than what's already existed for years, heck decades, now anyway. Police have been legally allowed to do warrantless searches for quite some time (under the right circumstances). Clarifying that you can't beat the crap out of a cop who performs such a search because you've made the determination yourself that the search isn't legal isn't really a departure from status quo really.Appaholic wrote:Doesn't apply I don't think. I believe a cop can enter any building where there is reasonable idea that a person's life is in danger...not sure, but I don't think you're analogy would apply if this is the case. I have to agree with Skelly on this one. The onus is on the police to establish a reasonable cause to enter and search anyone's house. Protection of the police from a potentially volatile situation should not be a consideration...that's what their job entails.GannonFan wrote:
Eh, I'd rather side with the thought that someone's life could be saved by a cop choosing to enter a house without a warrant rather than letting that life expire because he hadn't gotten through to the judge yet.
Agree, but that fact should be established BEFORE entering the house in probable cause hearing or petition for a search warrant. Once a legal search warrant has been obtained, even if the owner makes claim that it is fraudulent, the police are well within their right to break the door down and search away...GannonFan wrote:And heck, some people will argue that a search warrant isn't legal and will try to deny entry to a house even if presented with one. The place to discuss what is lawful and what isn't should be in a courtroom, not at the threshold of a house while both parties are under duress.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, we all know that Cops are the good guys............................lolGannonFan wrote:What if the conditions that permitted the warrant from being obtained were fradulent/made up?Skjellyfetti wrote:
That person would be resisting a LAWFUL search and SHOULD be arrested.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
Yes and no. Those exingent circumstances have to be similar to someone crying for help or illegal activity or goods in plain sight (I'm no lawyer....but I do watch Law & Order re-runs...GannonFan wrote:But I don't get where you're going, though. Like you said, a cop can already enter a building without a warrant if there's exigent circumstances (i.e. they don't need to have a probably cause hearing or petition for a search warrant). But the exigent circumstances are determined by the police officer on the spot and often in a rather quick determination. If the guy in the building thinks it's not legal, based on his own determination, are you saying it should be fine for him to resist? And if so, how much force is he allowed to resist with? Frankly, I don't see how this is vastly different than what's already existed for years, heck decades, now anyway. Police have been legally allowed to do warrantless searches for quite some time (under the right circumstances). Clarifying that you can't beat the crap out of a cop who performs such a search because you've made the determination yourself that the search isn't legal isn't really a departure from status quo really.Appaholic wrote:
Doesn't apply I don't think. I believe a cop can enter any building where there is reasonable idea that a person's life is in danger...not sure, but I don't think you're analogy would apply if this is the case. I have to agree with Skelly on this one. The onus is on the police to establish a reasonable cause to enter and search anyone's house. Protection of the police from a potentially volatile situation should not be a consideration...that's what their job entails.
Agree, but that fact should be established BEFORE entering the house in probable cause hearing or petition for a search warrant. Once a legal search warrant has been obtained, even if the owner makes claim that it is fraudulent, the police are well within their right to break the door down and search away...
In another scenarios, once an officer has busted through the door, he has to announce "POLICE!" and show badges (I think) once scene is secure. Once this is doen, all resistance should stop or offenders subject to arrest or police have right to self-defense. I'm sure this has been abused as well....("POLICE!" bang...known drug dealer/scum bucket dead but off street and cops are covered as they announced their presense and subject resisted arrest...also happened to have a pistol drawn...)
I don't have a problem with either scenario erring on the side of the police as this was the status quo currently. What I have a problem with is giving Police carte blanche to enter any house at any time without repuercussion. This gives any police (including rogue cops) the right to enter at will without having to do any legwork on the front side....it's lazy police work and a dangerous precedent for the average citizen. But then again I come from a state with the Castle doctrine...if anyone is in my house (or place of business) without a warrant or an invite, I have the right to defend myself and family up to and including deadly force with a firearm if I feel threaten. Have fun Indiana residents....
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
Quit making so much sense........you'll break the internetAppaholic wrote:Yes and no. Those exingent circumstances have to be similar to someone crying for help or illegal activity or goods in plain sight (I'm no lawyer....but I do watch Law & Order re-runs...GannonFan wrote:
But I don't get where you're going, though. Like you said, a cop can already enter a building without a warrant if there's exigent circumstances (i.e. they don't need to have a probably cause hearing or petition for a search warrant). But the exigent circumstances are determined by the police officer on the spot and often in a rather quick determination. If the guy in the building thinks it's not legal, based on his own determination, are you saying it should be fine for him to resist? And if so, how much force is he allowed to resist with? Frankly, I don't see how this is vastly different than what's already existed for years, heck decades, now anyway. Police have been legally allowed to do warrantless searches for quite some time (under the right circumstances). Clarifying that you can't beat the crap out of a cop who performs such a search because you've made the determination yourself that the search isn't legal isn't really a departure from status quo really.). An officer can abuse this currently and they do, but the exingent circumstances has to be proven after the fact to the judge. All evidence and charges resulting from the forced entry are subject to being thrown out of court if they don't pass the smell test. That tends to piss off DA's and result in "early" retirement for some officers I imagine...
In another scenarios, once an officer has busted through the door, he has to announce "POLICE!" and show badges (I think) once scene is secure. Once this is doen, all resistance should stop or offenders subject to arrest or police have right to self-defense. I'm sure this has been abused as well....("POLICE!" bang...known drug dealer/scum bucket dead but off street and cops are covered as they announced their presense and subject resisted arrest...also happened to have a pistol drawn...)
I don't have a problem with either scenario erring on the side of the police as this was the status quo currently. What I have a problem with is giving Police carte blanche to enter any house at any time without repuercussion. This gives any police (including rogue cops) the right to enter at will without having to do any legwork on the front side....it's lazy police work and a dangerous precedent for the average citizen. But then again I come from a state with the Castle doctrine...if anyone is in my house (or place of business) without a warrant or an invite, I have the right to defend myself and family up to and including deadly force with a firearm if I feel threaten. Have fun Indiana residents....
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
Who's saying the police have the right to enter any house at will at any time without repercisssion? An unlawful entry by police is still an unlawful entry and this decision doesn't change that at all. It just means that the person ruling it an unlawful entry and establishing the punishment is a judge in a court of law, not a homeowner who decides on the spot. I think you guys are reading more into this decision than what's really there. Exigent circumstances have been legit for an officer to enter a house without a warrant - that ship sailed a long time ago - here's the wiki breakdown on exigent circumstances rather than me just retyping something:Appaholic wrote:I don't have a problem with either scenario erring on the side of the police as this was the status quo currently. What I have a problem with is giving Police carte blanche to enter any house at any time without repuercussion. This gives any police (including rogue cops) the right to enter at will without having to do any legwork on the front side....it's lazy police work and a dangerous precedent for the average citizen. But then again I come from a state with the Castle doctrine...if anyone is in my house (or place of business) without a warrant or an invite, I have the right to defend myself and family up to and including deadly force with a firearm if I feel threaten. Have fun Indiana residents....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_ci ... States_lawn the criminal procedure context, exigent circumstance means:
An emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect, or destruction of evidence. There is no ready litmus test for determining whether such circumstances exist, and in each case the extraordinary situation must be measured by the facts known by officials.[1]
Those circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts.[2]
Exigent circumstances may make a warrantless search constitutional if probable cause exists. The existence of exigent circumstances is a mixed question of law and fact.[3] There is no absolute test for determining if exigent circumstances exist, but general factors have been identified. These include: clear evidence of probable cause; the seriousness of the offense and likelihood of destruction of evidence; limitations on the search to minimize the intrusion only to preventing destruction of evidence; and clear indications of exigency.
Exigency may be determined by: degree of urgency involved; amount of time needed to get a warrant; whether evidence is about to be removed or destroyed; danger at the site; knowledge of the suspect that police are on his or her trail; and/or ready destructibility of the evidence.[4] In determining the time necessary to obtain a warrant, a telephonic warrant should be considered. As electronic data may be altered or eradicated in seconds, in a factually compelling case the doctrine of exigent circumstances will support a warrantless seizure.
Even in exigent circumstances, while a warrantless seizure may be permitted, a subsequent warrant to search may still be necessary.[5]
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
My experience in 17 years of local law enforcement was that we were very careful with search and arrest warrants. Careful to the point of letting some people escape and allowing some evidence to be destroyed. At the end of the day, my personal philosophy (and one that I continually tried to impart to my patrolmen) was that you have three resposibilities as a cop:
1. To yourself. Stay fit, eat right, train continuously, and never place yourself in a position where your integrity can be questioned. If you cannot take care of yourself, then you cannot fulfill your other two responsibilities.
2. To other cops. If you cannot be trusted to make reasoned, fair decisions both in terms of enforcement as well as the use of force, then you are a liability as well as a danger to your partners.
3. To the public. If you can satisfy the first two responsibilities, THEN you can fulfill your mandate to serve and protect.
If a cop is dirty, gives false testimony, plays outside the rules, then he has failed to fulfill all three of the above responsibilities. He has placed himself in danger of losing every possession he has. He has endangered his fellow cops, and he has failed to serve the public.
Having been sued in my office a couple times, I can tell you that if you make a willful or egregious violation in the search and seizure venue, there will be an attorney putting liens on your house, your car, and the few possessions you can actually afford on a cop salary. 99.9% of the guys out there on the job are doing things correctly. Cops are people too, and the vast majority play by the rules.
Place yourself in a cops shoes, and then ask yourself, what would make falsifying testimony for a warrant worth the risks to my personal well being? NO criminal is worth that. There are some folks who seem to believe that most cops somehow sit around figuring how to fvck people over. In truth, most cops spend their time just trying to figure out how to reconcile their duties and obligations to their employer while simultaneously maintaining their duties to their own families and loved ones. That in itself is a full time job, leaving little room for the hanky panky that some of you seem to think is so rampant.
I agree with the Castle Doctrine. I think that it is one of the many protections we have in place against organized government oppression. That being said, the typical individual police officer is never going to allow himself to be used as a tool to that end. Also, check out the following organization: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. You'll find this mindset to be much more prevalent among police officers than the mindset that would lead to unlawful searches and seizures. I am still a member although no longer in law enforcement. The organization has a few goofy tenets, but the underlying belief system is legitimate.
1. To yourself. Stay fit, eat right, train continuously, and never place yourself in a position where your integrity can be questioned. If you cannot take care of yourself, then you cannot fulfill your other two responsibilities.
2. To other cops. If you cannot be trusted to make reasoned, fair decisions both in terms of enforcement as well as the use of force, then you are a liability as well as a danger to your partners.
3. To the public. If you can satisfy the first two responsibilities, THEN you can fulfill your mandate to serve and protect.
If a cop is dirty, gives false testimony, plays outside the rules, then he has failed to fulfill all three of the above responsibilities. He has placed himself in danger of losing every possession he has. He has endangered his fellow cops, and he has failed to serve the public.
Having been sued in my office a couple times, I can tell you that if you make a willful or egregious violation in the search and seizure venue, there will be an attorney putting liens on your house, your car, and the few possessions you can actually afford on a cop salary. 99.9% of the guys out there on the job are doing things correctly. Cops are people too, and the vast majority play by the rules.
Place yourself in a cops shoes, and then ask yourself, what would make falsifying testimony for a warrant worth the risks to my personal well being? NO criminal is worth that. There are some folks who seem to believe that most cops somehow sit around figuring how to fvck people over. In truth, most cops spend their time just trying to figure out how to reconcile their duties and obligations to their employer while simultaneously maintaining their duties to their own families and loved ones. That in itself is a full time job, leaving little room for the hanky panky that some of you seem to think is so rampant.
I agree with the Castle Doctrine. I think that it is one of the many protections we have in place against organized government oppression. That being said, the typical individual police officer is never going to allow himself to be used as a tool to that end. Also, check out the following organization: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. You'll find this mindset to be much more prevalent among police officers than the mindset that would lead to unlawful searches and seizures. I am still a member although no longer in law enforcement. The organization has a few goofy tenets, but the underlying belief system is legitimate.
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
- Skjellyfetti
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
That all seems like the way it's "supposed" to work... but, actually doesn't happen. Coptopia.
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- Appaholic
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
That's the issue IMO. A law-abiding homeowner should have the right to refuse entry of their home or place of business by any LE representative unless said representative can produce a search warrant (ie; right to enter) the home or place of business. If I'm reading this ruling correct (and there's a good chance I'm not), this ruling allows police to enter a home against a homeowner's protests even if they don't have search warrant or exingent circumstances. The burden is on the homeowner to file a complaint and get in front of a judge to protest...AFTER the fact. Now, I have little sympathy for the guy running a kiddie porn wholsale busines from their home and gets busted in this manner. But what of the law-abiding citizen who's house is fingered by a confidential informant trying to cut a deal or gives police the wrong house number. They now have to allow police in their home without resist? That stinks. In the case of the law-abiding citizen, police obtaining a search warrant to enter their house is a protection afforded the homeowner via the Constitution. LE representatives can stay on sight until search warrant is obtained. Any other situation of duress would be covered under exingent circumstances. So I don't see the extra protection this ruling seems to provide being a need of LE.GannonFan wrote:Who's saying the police have the right to enter any house at will at any time without repercisssion? An unlawful entry by police is still an unlawful entry and this decision doesn't change that at all. It just means that the person ruling it an unlawful entry and establishing the punishment is a judge in a court of law, not a homeowner who decides on the spot.Appaholic wrote:I don't have a problem with either scenario erring on the side of the police as this was the status quo currently. What I have a problem with is giving Police carte blanche to enter any house at any time without repuercussion. This gives any police (including rogue cops) the right to enter at will without having to do any legwork on the front side....it's lazy police work and a dangerous precedent for the average citizen. But then again I come from a state with the Castle doctrine...if anyone is in my house (or place of business) without a warrant or an invite, I have the right to defend myself and family up to and including deadly force with a firearm if I feel threaten. Have fun Indiana residents....
But, as I said, I could be reading this entirely wrong. Where is Danefan or JJ when you need them?
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“It’s like someone found a manic, doom-prophesying hobo in a sandwich board, shaved him, shot him full of Zoloft and gave him a show.” - The Buffalo Beast commenting on Glenn Beck
Consume. Watch TV. Be Silent. Work. Die.
- GannonFan
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
It doesn't allow the cops to enter a house without a search warrant or exigent circumstances with no potential repersucssions - it means that if they do the homeowner can't resist (and really, when there are exigent circumstances, it's not like the home owner is debating with the cops on the front step what constitutes exigent circumstances and whether they both agree that they exist - normally it's a cop making that call and decision and acting on it). But the onus is still on the police officer afterwards to justify the exigent circumstances so it's not something the home owner has to carry the burden on, at least not initially. Again, the way I read it is similar to the comment made in the article - this ruling basically says you can't beat the sh*t out of the cop because you don't agree with the premise for entering the house.Appaholic wrote:That's the issue IMO. A law-abiding homeowner should have the right to refuse entry of their home or place of business by any LE representative unless said representative can produce a search warrant (ie; right to enter) the home or place of business. If I'm reading this ruling correct (and there's a good chance I'm not), this ruling allows police to enter a home against a homeowner's protests even if they don't have search warrant or exingent circumstances. The burden is on the homeowner to file a complaint and get in front of a judge to protest...AFTER the fact.GannonFan wrote:
Who's saying the police have the right to enter any house at will at any time without repercisssion? An unlawful entry by police is still an unlawful entry and this decision doesn't change that at all. It just means that the person ruling it an unlawful entry and establishing the punishment is a judge in a court of law, not a homeowner who decides on the spot.
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Re: No right to resist unlawful police entry:
I don't think you should have the right to beat the shit out of the cop. But, you should be able to say "No. You may not enter my home without a warrant." And he should not be able to enter. And, if he tries... you should be able to physically resist.
"The unmasking thing was all created by Devin Nunes"
- Richard Burr, (R-NC)
- Richard Burr, (R-NC)

