The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:40 am
Caribbean Hen wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:45 am

and do you think their is any realistic chance of that happening using current strategy?

If not, what needs to change ?

If so, Ukraine becomes totally dependent on the USA like a Puerto Rico without the palm tress and we will be paying for their snap cards for 50 years
I do not think the current strategy will work. For some reason, Russia was underestimated militarily and industrially and they now have both those sectors humming. Putin holds all the cards right now and I think he'll require a huge chunk of Ukraine to be incapable of damaging Russia.

The only way I see anything but the inevitable happening is if the neocons quit pushing the war and let E Europe chill. If the US stays out of their business, Europe will find a way to cooperate. The US may not get to dictate who gets to do what in Ukraine anymore, but you know the monied interests will find a way in, especially if they promise to rebuild Ukraine.

I find it interesting that the US threatened Russia over Nordstream and then blew it up,then became a huge supplier of natural gas to Europe, but yet, people will deny the US is involved in anything more than supplying money and equipment.
Not without Trump and Sock Puppet Johnson's help :coffee:

When did you decide to change your story about Poland blowing the gas line? Or are you just conflating various lines oil bullshit? :?
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Re: The Ukraine

Post by Caribbean Hen »

YoUDeeMan wrote: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:03 am
GannonFan wrote: But where is Putin going with this? In one day he saw the Russian stock market take a massive nose dive as soon as Russian troops hit the ground. He backs off the rhetoric a little bit and his stance on Crimea and things calm down. He's not stupid, he can see that he risks economic disaster if he stays the course and now he just needs to find a way to step back while saving face. Again, Russia needs the West, they just do. They are dirt poor and buried if they don't and even Putin may not last long if they go back to the Soviet-era bread lines. I mean, Cappy would probably love to move there if they do, but most people won't.
The market? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The market will eventually get back to where is was no matter what Putin did.

As far as Putin backing off, Crimea will be Russian in one way or another, most likely effectively separated from Ukraine through a proxy government. No way Putin gives up control of that region anytime soon. I'll take side bets on that if anyone is interested. That port is too valuable for it to be under anyone else's influence.

And I would not be surprised if the two other Eastern sections also separate from the Ukraine.

In the long run, our reliance on economic sanctions will eventually backfire. China is watching, and they are growing their middle class for a reason...they have over 1B people, a market that dwarfs the US. In short time, they will be in a position to laugh at any sanctions we try to impose, their companies, and banks, will gladly step in when the US tries to pull the sanctions card on anyone.

There is a reason so many US companies are trying to get into China...despite obvious issues with piracy of every conceivable item. US growth is relatively flat, but there is a rainbow of money to be made (and lost) in China and the surrounding area. Business knows no boundaries.
You Dee Man !

After this insightful post the thread was dormant for 8 years, but very interesting to go back and read it
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by SeattleGriz »

houndawg wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:10 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 10:40 am

I do not think the current strategy will work. For some reason, Russia was underestimated militarily and industrially and they now have both those sectors humming. Putin holds all the cards right now and I think he'll require a huge chunk of Ukraine to be incapable of damaging Russia.

The only way I see anything but the inevitable happening is if the neocons quit pushing the war and let E Europe chill. If the US stays out of their business, Europe will find a way to cooperate. The US may not get to dictate who gets to do what in Ukraine anymore, but you know the monied interests will find a way in, especially if they promise to rebuild Ukraine.

I find it interesting that the US threatened Russia over Nordstream and then blew it up,then became a huge supplier of natural gas to Europe, but yet, people will deny the US is involved in anything more than supplying money and equipment.
Not without Trump and Sock Puppet Johnson's help :coffee:

When did you decide to change your story about Poland blowing the gas line? Or are you just conflating various lines oil bullshit? :?
Nobody did shit without Joey Rottens approval.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:20 am
houndawg wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:10 am

Not without Trump and Sock Puppet Johnson's help :coffee:

When did you decide to change your story about Poland blowing the gas line? Or are you just conflating various lines oil bullshit? :?
Nobody did shit without Joey Rottens approval.
Admitted world domination and you guys are worried about his senility?

Pfft!
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:20 am
houndawg wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:10 am

Not without Trump and Sock Puppet Johnson's help :coffee:

When did you decide to change your story about Poland blowing the gas line? Or are you just conflating various lines oil bullshit? :?
Nobody did shit without Joey Rottens approval.
Translation: I have, as usual, nothing - but look at that over there!
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Caribbean Hen »

Five Ukrainian officials were arrested this weekend on accusations of stealing nearly $40 million in funds meant to purchase military equipment for the war against Russia

https://www.foxnews.com/world/5-ukraini ... rsists.amp
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by BDKJMU »

Caribbean Hen wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:58 am Five Ukrainian officials were arrested this weekend on accusations of stealing nearly $40 million in funds meant to purchase military equipment for the war against Russia

https://www.foxnews.com/world/5-ukraini ... rsists.amp
Just the tip of the corruption iceberg in Ukraine.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Caribbean Hen »

BDKJMU wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:36 pm
Caribbean Hen wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:58 am Five Ukrainian officials were arrested this weekend on accusations of stealing nearly $40 million in funds meant to purchase military equipment for the war against Russia

https://www.foxnews.com/world/5-ukraini ... rsists.amp
Just the tip of the corruption iceberg in Ukraine.
Yes indeed

It’s going to be the next Puerto Rico on many levels
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

Caribbean Hen wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 1:07 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 12:36 pm
Just the tip of the corruption iceberg in Ukraine.
Yes indeed

It’s going to be the next Puerto Rico on many levels
So not quite as corrupt as the Clinton Foundation or Affinity Partners.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

Caribbean Hen wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:58 am Five Ukrainian officials were arrested this weekend on accusations of stealing nearly $40 million in funds meant to purchase military equipment for the war against Russia

https://www.foxnews.com/world/5-ukraini ... rsists.amp
At least they arrest for corruption. Here we call it defense contracting.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Caribbean Hen »

kalm wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 2:45 pm
Caribbean Hen wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:58 am Five Ukrainian officials were arrested this weekend on accusations of stealing nearly $40 million in funds meant to purchase military equipment for the war against Russia

https://www.foxnews.com/world/5-ukraini ... rsists.amp
At least they arrest for corruption. Here we call it defense contracting.
Token arrest
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Caribbean Hen »

Posted February 28th 2014 by the Clucker

“Russia should just take back their port, let Crimea separate from the Ukraine, and everyone goes (says) home happy”
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

A moderate independents view on Ukraine. King gets it. :nod:
King harked back to the failure of European allies to stop Hitler when it would have been relatively easy. “Whenever people write to my office” asking why we are supporting Ukraine, he said, “I answer, Google Sudetenland, 1938.” “We could have stopped a murderous dictator who was bent on geographic expansion…at a relatively low cost. The result of not doing so was 55 million deaths.”

The upcoming vote on whether to support “the people of Ukraine as they fight for our values,” King said, “will echo throughout the history of this country and the history of the world for generations…. If we back away, walk away, pull out and leave the Ukrainians without the resources to defend themselves, it will compromise the interests of this country for 50 years. It will be viewed as one of the greatest geopolitical mistakes of the 21st century.”

Abandoning Ukraine would embolden Russian president Vladimir Putin, King said. Putin “told us in 2005 that he felt that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He has…pursued the remedy to that catastrophe in his eyes ever since…. In 2008 he gobbled up part of what had been an independent country of Georgia. In 2014…Crimea and eastern Ukraine. [In] 2022, he tried for the rest of Ukraine.”

People say Putin will stop with Ukraine, King said, but “the Finns don't think so. The Swedes don't think so. The Baltic countries don't think so, and the Finns and the Swedes know Russia.”

“Maya Angelou once said if someone tells you who they are, you should believe them,” King said. “Putin has told us who he is. He’s an autocrat. He’s an authoritarian. And he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. And I believe he wouldn't stop there…. We have to take him at his word…. He despises the west. He thinks NATO is an aggressive alliance, somehow designed to invade or otherwise threaten Russia. NATO doesn't want to invade Russia. NATO wants to keep the lines where they are.” King noted that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was “the first crossing of a border of this nature since World War II.”

“[W]hat we're looking at here,” King said, “is…the struggle between the idea of democracy and the rule of law and authoritarianism and totalitarianism…. Ukraine is the opening wedge in that…conflict.” Turning away from Ukraine would embolden Putin, King said, but not only Putin. “f we cut and run in Ukraine, that will change Xi Jinping's calculus about Taiwan. He's going to say well, the Americans aren't going to stick. We don't have to worry too much about them helping the Taiwanese defend themselves.”

King, who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, identified the centerpiece of U.S. foreign policy and warned what is at stake if the U.S. abandons Ukraine. “Our asymmetric advantage in the world right now is allies,” King said. “China has customers. We have allies…. But our allies are going to say well, wait a minute. You’re with us now but when the going gets tough and you have to maybe have a budget supplemental to stick with us, you're going to walk away. It's going to undermine the confidence of our allies, and in places like Japan and South Korea, they may say we can't count on the Americans to defend us.”

If we abandon Ukraine, he said, we will have destroyed “our ability to negotiate and make deals in the future. Who the heck is going to deal with us if they know we can't be trusted?.... What an…incredible…self-inflicted wound on this country.” King recalled that in the 1780s, France had stood with the fledgling U.S. even as the Revolutionary War dragged on, and noted that “[t]here’s a reasonable chance we wouldn't be the United States of America today, if our ally had walked away…. The whole idea of an alliance is that you can count on somebody when the times are tough. We're sending ammunition. They're sending lives.”

Addressing right-wing talking points about aid to Ukraine, King said that U.S. aid to Ukraine is “one of the best and strongest and most closely accounted for provisions of aid ever” and that “the idea that nobody else is contributing and Europe isn't doing its part is just bunk.” Europe has given far more to Ukraine than the U.S. as a percentage of the wealth each country produces, he said, and other countries have also taken in millions of refugees.

“[D]emocracy matters,” King said. “Values matter. Freedom of expression, the rule of law matter, and that’s what’s at stake…. This is a historic struggle between authoritarianism, arbitrariness, surveillance, and the radical idea that people can govern themselves. That's what this is all about. This is a battle for the soul of our democracy in the world…. It's worth fighting for. And in this case we don't even have to do the fighting. We just have to supply the arms and ammunition.”

“I have a question for my colleagues,” King said. “When the history of this day is written, as it surely will be, do you really want to be recorded as being on the side of Vladimir Putin?... Or on the side of China, as they contemplate the invasion of Taiwan…. [H]istory's going to record this vote as one of the most important votes that any of us have ever made.”

For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy, on the side of the values that the country has stood for and that people have been fighting for 250 years
.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/heatherco ... paign=post
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

kalm wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 6:28 am A moderate independents view on Ukraine. King gets it. :nod:
King harked back to the failure of European allies to stop Hitler when it would have been relatively easy. “Whenever people write to my office” asking why we are supporting Ukraine, he said, “I answer, Google Sudetenland, 1938.” “We could have stopped a murderous dictator who was bent on geographic expansion…at a relatively low cost. The result of not doing so was 55 million deaths.”

The upcoming vote on whether to support “the people of Ukraine as they fight for our values,” King said, “will echo throughout the history of this country and the history of the world for generations…. If we back away, walk away, pull out and leave the Ukrainians without the resources to defend themselves, it will compromise the interests of this country for 50 years. It will be viewed as one of the greatest geopolitical mistakes of the 21st century.”

Abandoning Ukraine would embolden Russian president Vladimir Putin, King said. Putin “told us in 2005 that he felt that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He has…pursued the remedy to that catastrophe in his eyes ever since…. In 2008 he gobbled up part of what had been an independent country of Georgia. In 2014…Crimea and eastern Ukraine. [In] 2022, he tried for the rest of Ukraine.”

People say Putin will stop with Ukraine, King said, but “the Finns don't think so. The Swedes don't think so. The Baltic countries don't think so, and the Finns and the Swedes know Russia.”

“Maya Angelou once said if someone tells you who they are, you should believe them,” King said. “Putin has told us who he is. He’s an autocrat. He’s an authoritarian. And he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. And I believe he wouldn't stop there…. We have to take him at his word…. He despises the west. He thinks NATO is an aggressive alliance, somehow designed to invade or otherwise threaten Russia. NATO doesn't want to invade Russia. NATO wants to keep the lines where they are.” King noted that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was “the first crossing of a border of this nature since World War II.”

“[W]hat we're looking at here,” King said, “is…the struggle between the idea of democracy and the rule of law and authoritarianism and totalitarianism…. Ukraine is the opening wedge in that…conflict.” Turning away from Ukraine would embolden Putin, King said, but not only Putin. “f we cut and run in Ukraine, that will change Xi Jinping's calculus about Taiwan. He's going to say well, the Americans aren't going to stick. We don't have to worry too much about them helping the Taiwanese defend themselves.”

King, who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, identified the centerpiece of U.S. foreign policy and warned what is at stake if the U.S. abandons Ukraine. “Our asymmetric advantage in the world right now is allies,” King said. “China has customers. We have allies…. But our allies are going to say well, wait a minute. You’re with us now but when the going gets tough and you have to maybe have a budget supplemental to stick with us, you're going to walk away. It's going to undermine the confidence of our allies, and in places like Japan and South Korea, they may say we can't count on the Americans to defend us.”

If we abandon Ukraine, he said, we will have destroyed “our ability to negotiate and make deals in the future. Who the heck is going to deal with us if they know we can't be trusted?.... What an…incredible…self-inflicted wound on this country.” King recalled that in the 1780s, France had stood with the fledgling U.S. even as the Revolutionary War dragged on, and noted that “[t]here’s a reasonable chance we wouldn't be the United States of America today, if our ally had walked away…. The whole idea of an alliance is that you can count on somebody when the times are tough. We're sending ammunition. They're sending lives.”

Addressing right-wing talking points about aid to Ukraine, King said that U.S. aid to Ukraine is “one of the best and strongest and most closely accounted for provisions of aid ever” and that “the idea that nobody else is contributing and Europe isn't doing its part is just bunk.” Europe has given far more to Ukraine than the U.S. as a percentage of the wealth each country produces, he said, and other countries have also taken in millions of refugees.

“[D]emocracy matters,” King said. “Values matter. Freedom of expression, the rule of law matter, and that’s what’s at stake…. This is a historic struggle between authoritarianism, arbitrariness, surveillance, and the radical idea that people can govern themselves. That's what this is all about. This is a battle for the soul of our democracy in the world…. It's worth fighting for. And in this case we don't even have to do the fighting. We just have to supply the arms and ammunition.”

“I have a question for my colleagues,” King said. “When the history of this day is written, as it surely will be, do you really want to be recorded as being on the side of Vladimir Putin?... Or on the side of China, as they contemplate the invasion of Taiwan…. [H]istory's going to record this vote as one of the most important votes that any of us have ever made.”

For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy, on the side of the values that the country has stood for and that people have been fighting for 250 years
.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/heatherco ... paign=post


:nod:


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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Caribbean Hen »

How about a little question at the end of your tax return…

Would you like the federal government to deduct $500 from your tax return to support the fight in the Ukraine?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 6:28 am A moderate independents view on Ukraine. King gets it. :nod:
King harked back to the failure of European allies to stop Hitler when it would have been relatively easy. “Whenever people write to my office” asking why we are supporting Ukraine, he said, “I answer, Google Sudetenland, 1938.” “We could have stopped a murderous dictator who was bent on geographic expansion…at a relatively low cost. The result of not doing so was 55 million deaths.”

The upcoming vote on whether to support “the people of Ukraine as they fight for our values,” King said, “will echo throughout the history of this country and the history of the world for generations…. If we back away, walk away, pull out and leave the Ukrainians without the resources to defend themselves, it will compromise the interests of this country for 50 years. It will be viewed as one of the greatest geopolitical mistakes of the 21st century.”

Abandoning Ukraine would embolden Russian president Vladimir Putin, King said. Putin “told us in 2005 that he felt that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He has…pursued the remedy to that catastrophe in his eyes ever since…. In 2008 he gobbled up part of what had been an independent country of Georgia. In 2014…Crimea and eastern Ukraine. [In] 2022, he tried for the rest of Ukraine.”

People say Putin will stop with Ukraine, King said, but “the Finns don't think so. The Swedes don't think so. The Baltic countries don't think so, and the Finns and the Swedes know Russia.”

“Maya Angelou once said if someone tells you who they are, you should believe them,” King said. “Putin has told us who he is. He’s an autocrat. He’s an authoritarian. And he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. And I believe he wouldn't stop there…. We have to take him at his word…. He despises the west. He thinks NATO is an aggressive alliance, somehow designed to invade or otherwise threaten Russia. NATO doesn't want to invade Russia. NATO wants to keep the lines where they are.” King noted that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was “the first crossing of a border of this nature since World War II.”

“[W]hat we're looking at here,” King said, “is…the struggle between the idea of democracy and the rule of law and authoritarianism and totalitarianism…. Ukraine is the opening wedge in that…conflict.” Turning away from Ukraine would embolden Putin, King said, but not only Putin. “f we cut and run in Ukraine, that will change Xi Jinping's calculus about Taiwan. He's going to say well, the Americans aren't going to stick. We don't have to worry too much about them helping the Taiwanese defend themselves.”

King, who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, identified the centerpiece of U.S. foreign policy and warned what is at stake if the U.S. abandons Ukraine. “Our asymmetric advantage in the world right now is allies,” King said. “China has customers. We have allies…. But our allies are going to say well, wait a minute. You’re with us now but when the going gets tough and you have to maybe have a budget supplemental to stick with us, you're going to walk away. It's going to undermine the confidence of our allies, and in places like Japan and South Korea, they may say we can't count on the Americans to defend us.”

If we abandon Ukraine, he said, we will have destroyed “our ability to negotiate and make deals in the future. Who the heck is going to deal with us if they know we can't be trusted?.... What an…incredible…self-inflicted wound on this country.” King recalled that in the 1780s, France had stood with the fledgling U.S. even as the Revolutionary War dragged on, and noted that “[t]here’s a reasonable chance we wouldn't be the United States of America today, if our ally had walked away…. The whole idea of an alliance is that you can count on somebody when the times are tough. We're sending ammunition. They're sending lives.”

Addressing right-wing talking points about aid to Ukraine, King said that U.S. aid to Ukraine is “one of the best and strongest and most closely accounted for provisions of aid ever” and that “the idea that nobody else is contributing and Europe isn't doing its part is just bunk.” Europe has given far more to Ukraine than the U.S. as a percentage of the wealth each country produces, he said, and other countries have also taken in millions of refugees.

“[D]emocracy matters,” King said. “Values matter. Freedom of expression, the rule of law matter, and that’s what’s at stake…. This is a historic struggle between authoritarianism, arbitrariness, surveillance, and the radical idea that people can govern themselves. That's what this is all about. This is a battle for the soul of our democracy in the world…. It's worth fighting for. And in this case we don't even have to do the fighting. We just have to supply the arms and ammunition.”

“I have a question for my colleagues,” King said. “When the history of this day is written, as it surely will be, do you really want to be recorded as being on the side of Vladimir Putin?... Or on the side of China, as they contemplate the invasion of Taiwan…. [H]istory's going to record this vote as one of the most important votes that any of us have ever made.”

For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy, on the side of the values that the country has stood for and that people have been fighting for 250 years
.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/heatherco ... paign=post


First of all, from a history standpoint, I don't think the Allies resisting Germany and not allowing Germany to take the Sudetenland would've stopped the coming world war. It certainly would've evolved differently, but there was certainly going to be a world war.

Now that we have that historical correction out of the way.
1) Putin isn't Hitler and Germany. Putin wants Ukraine, and he wants any lands that were previously the Soviet Union (hi there Balkan countries!). That's still pretty bad, especially considering that those countries do not want to be part of Russia again. We are right to help those countries resist that, especially if they ask for help.

2) That article read like a defense of the domino theory that governed most of the Cold War - if we let the dirty commies get one country, that would only encourage them to take the next one, and so on. Again, I don't think Putin, as evil as he is, is hellbent on world domination. I don't think he's that imaginative. He wants the old Soviet Union. Again, I think that's enough to warrant resisting him, again, especially if the countries he's targeting ask for help.

3) That article also reads like a neocon's manifesto. Again, I'm all in favor of spending money, loads of it, to help Ukraine. But it's also terribly ironic to hear that defense that was also used to overthrow Sadaam in Iraq - "For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy...". Does George W know someone is plagiarizing his stuff?

4) I have no idea why the font is italicized in my post - just wanted to put that out there. :dunce:
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 6:28 am A moderate independents view on Ukraine. King gets it. :nod:
.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/heatherco ... paign=post


First of all, from a history standpoint, I don't think the Allies resisting Germany and not allowing Germany to take the Sudetenland would've stopped the coming world war. It certainly would've evolved differently, but there was certainly going to be a world war.

Now that we have that historical correction out of the way.
1) Putin isn't Hitler and Germany. Putin wants Ukraine, and he wants any lands that were previously the Soviet Union (hi there Balkan countries!). That's still pretty bad, especially considering that those countries do not want to be part of Russia again. We are right to help those countries resist that, especially if they ask for help.

2) That article read like a defense of the domino theory that governed most of the Cold War - if we let the dirty commies get one country, that would only encourage them to take the next one, and so on. Again, I don't think Putin, as evil as he is, is hellbent on world domination. I don't think he's that imaginative. He wants the old Soviet Union. Again, I think that's enough to warrant resisting him, again, especially if the countries he's targeting ask for help.

3) That article also reads like a neocon's manifesto. Again, I'm all in favor of spending money, loads of it, to help Ukraine. But it's also terribly ironic to hear that defense that was also used to overthrow Sadaam in Iraq - "For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy...". Does George W know someone is plagiarizing his stuff?

4) I have no idea why the font is italicized in my post - just wanted to put that out there. :dunce:


While I agree with Ganny’s points I also think it’s fair to ask what if. What if putin existed in a pre-nuclear world. Would he more aggressive/violent? Is the threat of nuclear war a deterrent? Is NATOs existence a deterrent/obstacle to putin’s ambitions?

While putin has demonstrated that he’s more than capable of using violence, intimidation and gulags/concentration camps to suppress dissent he’s not at hitler’s (or stalin’s or mao’s) level.


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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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Uh. Uh. Uh. :dunce:

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by BDKJMU »

SeattleGriz wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 11:11 am Uh. Uh. Uh. :dunce:

The Utra Neocon. Even the left hates her.
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/19/who-is ... licy-team/
If it wasn‘t for the Nuland orchestrated coup in Ukraine in 2014, would Putin even have invaded all of Ulraine?
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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UNI88 wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:15 pm
GannonFan wrote:
First of all, from a history standpoint, I don't think the Allies resisting Germany and not allowing Germany to take the Sudetenland would've stopped the coming world war. It certainly would've evolved differently, but there was certainly going to be a world war.

Now that we have that historical correction out of the way.
1) Putin isn't Hitler and Germany. Putin wants Ukraine, and he wants any lands that were previously the Soviet Union (hi there Balkan countries!). That's still pretty bad, especially considering that those countries do not want to be part of Russia again. We are right to help those countries resist that, especially if they ask for help.

2) That article read like a defense of the domino theory that governed most of the Cold War - if we let the dirty commies get one country, that would only encourage them to take the next one, and so on. Again, I don't think Putin, as evil as he is, is hellbent on world domination. I don't think he's that imaginative. He wants the old Soviet Union. Again, I think that's enough to warrant resisting him, again, especially if the countries he's targeting ask for help.

3) That article also reads like a neocon's manifesto. Again, I'm all in favor of spending money, loads of it, to help Ukraine. But it's also terribly ironic to hear that defense that was also used to overthrow Sadaam in Iraq - "For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy...". Does George W know someone is plagiarizing his stuff?

4) I have no idea why the font is italicized in my post - just wanted to put that out there. :dunce:
While I agree with Ganny’s points I also think it’s fair to ask what if. What if putin existed in a pre-nuclear world. Would he more aggressive/violent? Is the threat of nuclear war a deterrent? Is NATOs existence a deterrent/obstacle to putin’s ambitions?

While putin has demonstrated that he’s more than capable of using violence, intimidation and gulags/concentration camps to suppress dissent he’s not at hitler’s (or stalin’s or mao’s) level.


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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

Caribbean Hen wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:41 am Posted February 28th 2014 by the Clucker

“Russia should just take back their port, let Crimea separate from the Ukraine, and everyone goes (says) home happy”
They're trying. But like most nations, the Ukranians are funny about holding on to their land.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by Caribbean Hen »

houndawg wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:06 am
Caribbean Hen wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:41 am Posted February 28th 2014 by the Clucker

“Russia should just take back their port, let Crimea separate from the Ukraine, and everyone goes (says) home happy”
They're trying. But like most nations, the Ukranians are funny about holding on to their land.
Yea let’s get back to it in 10 to 20 years
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by kalm »

IIRC Fox News viewers quit watching when Tucker left the network.

Rest assured, he’s continuing to do God’s work.

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Re: The Ukraine Crisis

Post by houndawg »

kalm wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:09 pm IIRC Fox News viewers quit watching when Tucker left the network.

Rest assured, he’s continuing to do God’s work.

This will be masterpiece of groveling and bootlicking
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