Obama Wiretapping Trump

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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by ∞∞∞ »

GannonFan wrote:
Ibanez wrote: There's a difference between what we don't know and aren't being told. I like to believe we aren't being told everything.
That's great, but it doesn't solve anything. We were clearly listening to Flynn's conversation with the Russian ambassador prior to the new administration taking over so there's little doubt that we were wiretapping parts of the Trump campaign. Whether we got actual tape of Trump or not is still to be revealed. But we're at a point that the left is saying any contact at any time with the Russians is grounds for removal from office and the GOP - or at least Trump's portion of it - is saying that they were wiretapped and that the sharing of those wiretaps or the information for them went way outside the normal clearance levels for such work, and considering the amount of anonymous leaks these days that seems fairly credible. Nobody looks good right now - the left looks like they're hyperventilating over anything and the right looks like Trump. It's a messy time and no one seems to be capable of clearing things up.
The left isn't saying that contact with the Russians is grounds for removal. A lot of people have contacts with Russian officials...they're a pretty important nation after all. It's just that Trump's people are "forgetting" (or deliberately hiding) personal meetings with Russian contacts...which is what raises questions.

And heck, there's not even anything wrong with meeting a Russian official personally. However, it's one thing if they forgot they met an ambassador at a cocktail party or a conference or a large gathering, but it's another animal to forget one-on-one meetings and phone calls (all within the last year).
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Yeah, "the left" isn't saying that anyone that met with a Russian official should step down. Or that simply meeting with a Russian official isn't ethical or grounds for any sort of investigation.

It's repeatedly lying about the meetings. During a multi-agency investigation of Trump's campaign and administration contacts with Russia.

We know that the FBI is leading a counterintelligence investigation, with the help of the CIA, NSA, and the Treasury Department's financial crimes unit.

A counterintelligence investigation consists of an investigation of the connections between American citizens and a foreign government.

Perhaps it is true that Trump and his associates were wiretapped as part of this investigation.

Comey's response certainly makes it sound like the wiretaps were part of the FBI's counterintelligence investigation. If there were wiretaps - it was almost certainly at the direction of the FBI, with the aid of other intelligence agencies.

So, Flynn lied to Pence. Big deal.

Flynn lied to the FBI. Bigger deal.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

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These clowns are endlessly entertaining, so we got that going for us
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by mrklean »

The POTUS can not order a wire tap of any kind. The wire tap has to be part of an active investigation. So again there would be a long paper trail if such action did occur. Just saying..........................?
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by CAA Flagship »

mrklean wrote:The POTUS can not order a wire tap of any kind. The wire tap has to be part of an active investigation. So again there would be a long paper trail if such action did occur. Just saying..........................?
Can he stop one from occurring?
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Skjellyfetti »

CAA Flagship wrote:
mrklean wrote:The POTUS can not order a wire tap of any kind. The wire tap has to be part of an active investigation. So again there would be a long paper trail if such action did occur. Just saying..........................?
Can he stop one from occurring?
Should he have?
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by GannonFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
That's great, but it doesn't solve anything. We were clearly listening to Flynn's conversation with the Russian ambassador prior to the new administration taking over so there's little doubt that we were wiretapping parts of the Trump campaign. Whether we got actual tape of Trump or not is still to be revealed. But we're at a point that the left is saying any contact at any time with the Russians is grounds for removal from office and the GOP - or at least Trump's portion of it - is saying that they were wiretapped and that the sharing of those wiretaps or the information for them went way outside the normal clearance levels for such work, and considering the amount of anonymous leaks these days that seems fairly credible. Nobody looks good right now - the left looks like they're hyperventilating over anything and the right looks like Trump. It's a messy time and no one seems to be capable of clearing things up.
The left isn't saying that contact with the Russians is grounds for removal. A lot of people have contacts with Russian officials...they're a pretty important nation after all. It's just that Trump's people are "forgetting" (or deliberately hiding) personal meetings with Russian contacts...which is what raises questions.

And heck, there's not even anything wrong with meeting a Russian official personally. However, it's one thing if they forgot they met an ambassador at a cocktail party or a conference or a large gathering, but it's another animal to forget one-on-one meetings and phone calls (all within the last year).
But that's the thing, one of Sessions's meetings with the ambassador was in full view of the public after a speech outside of Cleveland where the ambassador was one of many people who chit chatted him after the speech. If it was just the meeting in the Senator's office that people are concerned with that would be more valid, but people haven't been making that distinction, it is just any personal interaction with a Russian official that is making the headlines.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Skjellyfetti »

GannonFan wrote:it is just any personal interaction with a Russian official that is making the headlines.

It's not.

Trump made a phonecall with Putin soon after he took office. That phonecall isn't the subject of any calls for resignation because it was all above board and he didn't lie about it.

If Trump said he didn't make a phone call to Putin and it turned out he did... that would cause a shitstorm (particularly if he was under oath).

I don't get why this is so hard to understand. :lol:
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by CAA Flagship »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote: Can he stop one from occurring?
Should he have?
This is a question as to the process. A President is very likely to be informed of action going to the FISA Court. If he has the power to stop it, then wouldn't the action of not stopping it be similar to an approval?

I'm not saying he should have stopped it or "approved" it. Clearly, we don't know what the "evidence" was.
I'm just trying to understand Trump's claim that Obama did this. This would be similar to Generals approving a military mission where the President is made aware of it just prior to initiating. Surely the President has the power to stop a mission. But by not stopping it, would that be "approval"?
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Skjellyfetti »

No, because ordering a wiretap is getting involved in an FBI investigation.

Ordering a wiretap to be stopped is also getting involved in an FBI investigation.

The only legit reason I could see for a President to get involved in an FBI investigation would be if there was evidence of the FBI breaking the law. Absent that... makes no sense for him to get involved at all.

Saying Obama had anything to do with the wiretap says he was somehow involved in the FBI decision making - which makes the FBI investigation look compromised. And, I'd be the first to shit on Obama if he did.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by SeattleGriz »

Trump flipped the script. He has turned Russiagate into Deepstategate and pulled Obama in with him. Without doing shit other than a tweet, he has expanded the Russia bullshit to include whether BHO overstepped his boundaries. Trump simply used the mainstream media's own news against them and pointed out something Obama probably was doing.

James Clapper anyone?

Will anything happen? Fuck no. Have been excited for someone to get in trouble in Washington for about 10 years now and NOTHING EVER HAPPENS TO ANYONE OF SUBSTANCE. Nothing-burger.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by CID1990 »

Remember back when lying about things wasn't suspicious at all and not a signal of a coverup?


Benghazi!!!!

(But Obama)


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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by GannonFan »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
GannonFan wrote:it is just any personal interaction with a Russian official that is making the headlines.

It's not.

Trump made a phonecall with Putin soon after he took office. That phonecall isn't the subject of any calls for resignation because it was all above board and he didn't lie about it.

If Trump said he didn't make a phone call to Putin and it turned out he did... that would cause a shitstorm (particularly if he was under oath).

I don't get why this is so hard to understand. :lol:
But it doesn't just end at the folks who spoke to a Russian person and who lied about it. Just after the Sessions stuff last week, there was reporting that Kushner had met with the same ambassador. I don't recall him being asked about it and therefore not sure if he lied about meeting him, but that's where the stories are going, that's what happens when there are things like a Red Scare.

I don't recall Flynn being fired because he lied about meeting the Russian, he lied about what was talked about with the Russian. And the only reason anyone knows what he talked about was because there was a wiretap. Which of course comes back around to who was wiretapped and when? And why?

The Russian stuff is one thing and the wiretapping is another thing. They're both important to get resolved in terms of what went on and right now we aren't getting answers on any of it. We're so focused on which party is getting the better of the news cycle that we are missing the bigger picture, assuming there is one other than the politics of it.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Skjellyfetti »

GannonFan wrote: Which of course comes back around to who was wiretapped and when? And why?

The Russian stuff is one thing and the wiretapping is another thing. They're both important to get resolved in terms of what went on and right now we aren't getting answers on any of it. We're so focused on which party is getting the better of the news cycle that we are missing the bigger picture, assuming there is one other than the politics of it.
I said in the first post I'm all for appointing a special prosecutor to follow this wherever it may lead. :thumb:

For some reason, I don't think Republicans will get behind this, though. :cry:
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:Remember back when lying about things wasn't suspicious at all and not a signal of a coverup?


Benghazi!!!!

(But Obama)
Um..
Benghazi was covered every day for 4 months
24 hours around clock by Fox News

and Obama was accused of lying every single day by Fox News
Regardless of evidence or anything really

I'll close with:
And you can keep your doctor... :ohno:
and Afghanistan :ohno:
and Holder appointment :ohno:
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Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:
CID1990 wrote:Remember back when lying about things wasn't suspicious at all and not a signal of a coverup?


Benghazi!!!!

(But Obama)
Um..
Benghazi was covered every day for 4 months
24 hours around clock by Fox News

and Obama was accused of lying every single day by Fox News
Regardless of evidence or anything really

I'll close with:
And you can keep your doctor... :ohno:
and Afghanistan :ohno:
and Holder appointment :ohno:
I'm talking about people to whom lying for political purposes is now a high crime, when not too long ago it was just meh

Oh, and

BENGHAZI!!!!


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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

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CAA Flagship wrote:[
I'm just trying to understand Trump's claim that Obama did this. ?
Uh...he just lies and makes stuff up all the time. And I think that is the most likely explanation for this. Yes, I have to wait to see how it all plays out. But it's not like he never made outrageous claims before that were never substantiated. That's what I expect to happen here too.

If you want to "understand" what Trump does you should factor in the fact that he lies and makes stuff up all the time. He's got zero credibility for anyone who's been paying attention to his behavior over the past 10 years or so. You pretty much need to start off with the premise that this guy is a serial liar and the chances that he's lying when he says something sensational are better than 50:50 in any individual case.

In fact I personally would put it at better than 90:10. I mean, this guy is one of the biggest liars to ever come on the scene.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

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BTW this is not like previous lying by politicians. Trump is at a whole 'nuther level. He is an incredibly prolific, blatant, and persistent liar even by the standards of politicians.

I could point to sources that support that allegation. But I have learned that Trump zombies just attack those sources. Truth is not something Trump or his zombies are interested in.
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Re: RE: Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote:[
I'm just trying to understand Trump's claim that Obama did this. ?
Uh...he just lies and makes stuff up all the time. And I think that is the most likely explanation for this. Yes, I have to wait to see how it all plays out. But it's not like he never made outrageous claims before that were never substantiated. That's what I expect to happen here too.

If you want to "understand" what Trump does you should factor in the fact that he lies and makes stuff up all the time. He's got zero credibility for anyone who's been paying attention to his behavior over the past 10 years or so. You pretty much need to start off with the premise that this guy is a serial liar and the chances that he's lying when he says something sensational are better than 50:50 in any individual case.

In fact I personally would put it at better than 90:10. I mean, this guy is one of the biggest liars to ever come on the scene.
He didn't have to make a thing up, just read the WaPo or NYT. Both talk of FISA and that this shit has been going on for awhile. Their own articles were used against them and he shut the media up in regards to Russian ambassadors. Trump with the troll and the Libs typical apoplectic reaction.
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Re: RE: Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote: He didn't have to make a thing up, just read the WaPo or NYT. Both talk of FISA and that this **** has been going on for awhile. Their own articles were used against them and he shut the media up in regards to Russian ambassadors. Trump with the troll and the Libs typical apoplectic reaction.
Please link Washington Post or New York Times articles that provide support for what Trump tweeted.

And BTW he has not shut the media up with respect to Russian ambassadors. What they're doing now is talking about how this was an attempt on his part to divert their attention with respect to Russian ambassadors. But they're still talking about the Russian ambassador.

If you want to preserve your own credibility you need to stop defending this guy. And that goes for the rest of you too.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by SeattleGriz »

JohnStOnge wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote: He didn't have to make a thing up, just read the WaPo or NYT. Both talk of FISA and that this **** has been going on for awhile. Their own articles were used against them and he shut the media up in regards to Russian ambassadors. Trump with the troll and the Libs typical apoplectic reaction.
Please link Washington Post or New York Times articles that provide support for what Trump tweeted.
I am on my tablet, ain't gonna happen for awhile. If you want, type in Mark Levin Fox and Friends in Google and watch the video. He lays out all the articles. By the way Levin has been calling this shit since January.
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by Skjellyfetti »

He can't.

White House would have done it if there was any basis in reality.

SeattleGriz could be right that it is successful in deflecting the public's attention.

But, the fact remains that Trump and his underlings are under investigation by the FBI (with assistance from other agencies). It won't distract them.

If Trump did nothing wrong... he has nothing to worry about. But, his tweetstorm reads more like a desperate guy that knows the Feds are probably going to drop the hammer on him at some point... than some master strategist. Just mo, though. :coffee:
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

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ALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:I dont want to see them

But its a no brainer that Obama tapped the Tower.
He did it after work on Friday; went in dressed as a plumber.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

Post by JohnStOnge »

SeattleGriz wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
Please link Washington Post or New York Times articles that provide support for what Trump tweeted.
I am on my tablet, ain't gonna happen for awhile. If you want, type in Mark Levin Fox and Friends in Google and watch the video. He lays out all the articles. By the way Levin has been calling this **** since January.
You seriously believe that crap?
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Re: Obama Wiretapping Trump

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Skjellyfetti wrote:He can't.

White House would have done it if there was any basis in reality.

SeattleGriz could be right that it is successful in deflecting the public's attention.

But, the fact remains that Trump and his underlings are under investigation by the FBI (with assistance from other agencies). It won't distract them.

If Trump did nothing wrong... he has nothing to worry about. But, his tweetstorm reads more like a desperate guy that knows the Feds are probably going to drop the hammer on him at some point... than some master strategist. Just mo, though. :coffee:
Its like he knows what is coming and is trying to diminish the impact by getting out in front
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