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Old Skool wrote:As a new member of these boards I've been looking over the different conferences member lists. Can someone in the know explain how University San Diego winds up in a conference with Davidson and other east coast schools?
Got to admit this conference looks like a nightmare. Must absolutely kill the athletic dept. travel budget.

dbackjon wrote:Welcome.

The pioneer league is the only non scholarship league. That is why they play each other

danefan wrote:

dbackjon wrote:Welcome.

The pioneer league is the only non scholarship league. That is why they play each other

Actually they are one of two non-scholarship leagues. The Ivy Leage and PFL have the same financial aid system.

dbackjon wrote:

danefan wrote:
Actually they are one of two non-scholarship leagues. The Ivy Leage and PFL have the same financial aid system.

Alledgedly

Campbell University's football team will spend plenty of time in airports and on buses this season, with trips scheduled to Iowa (Des Moines), upstate New York (Poughkeepsie) and Indiana (Valparaiso).

And that's just its conference schedule.

Toss in a bus trip to nearby Davidson, and it all adds up to roughly 2,700 miles on the road this season in league games alone for the Camels. In just their second year of existence, they've already learned that long trips are a fact of life in the nonscholarship, under-the-radar Pioneer Football League.

The lower-tier conference in the Championship Subdivision of Division I is made up of nine private schools and one public institution in eight states. It stretches from California to Florida to New York _ an unusual geographic setup that creates considerable transportation costs.

Yet its members insist that, compared to what it would cost to fund scholarships at those private schools, it's a welcome bargain in a time when the economy is still stressed.

"There is an investment in travel," league commissioner Patty Viverito said, "but I think you'll find that in every other aspect of the program, it's far less expensive than any other model."

The numbers seem to bear that out.

A full scholarship to Campbell _ a private, Baptist school of about 6,800 located an hour's drive south of Raleigh _ is worth roughly $24,000, which means that meeting the FCS standard of 63 scholarships would cost the school about $1.5 million, athletic director Stan Williamson said. The Camels' football travel budget is a fraction of that, ranging between $100,000 and $150,000, he said.

"Travel is expensive, but you're only traveling five or six games a year _ compare that to the cost of a scholarship at a private school. That's a whole lot cheaper," Williamson said. "A tenth of ($1.5 million) is certainly a lot cheaper, even if you have to fly to San Diego or Drake or places like that, than it is traveling shorter distances (in a scholarship league), which would save you some money but not near the $1.5 million it would cost to fund the scholarships to compete at that level."

Still, both the conference and its schools have gotten creative in their efforts to pinch pennies on the road.

The St. Louis-based league allows visiting teams to bring only 55 players, and the schedule-makers don't give teams more than two plane trips per season. When schools do fly, they generally don't take private planes or chartered flights _ they sit in coach class, carry their own bags and sometimes take inventive routes to their destinations.

For San Diego's trip to Morehead State in November, the Toreros will save $200 per plane ticket by flying to Columbus, Ohio, and then busing roughly 4 hours to eastern Kentucky. They did the same thing last year before their game at Drake, flying to Kansas City and busing three hours north to Des Moines, Iowa, to trim each $600 plane ticket to about $400.

"We're smart with our money," said Dan Yourg, San Diego's associate athletic director for business and football supervisor. He declined to get into specifics about his school's football travel budget except to say, "it probably would be a lot less than someone would think."

Indeed, saving money seemingly has been a fundamental mission of the league ever since it formed in the early 1990s in response to the NCAA's decision to require schools in Division I to field all of their sports teams at that level. That ruling put schools like Dayton in a bind. It was in Division III for football only and jumped to the Pioneer Football League right from the start.

"Dropping football was not the preferred course, so they had to jury-rig a conference, had to find like-minded schools," Viverito said. "We've been the umbrella organization for any program at Division I that wants to offer nonscholarship, low-cost football, and we've not let geography be a deterrent to folks that want to follow that model."

But forget downsizing. Instead, this far-flung league plans on getting bigger.

This season, Marist will become its 10th member after its primary league, the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference, folded its football league in 2007-08.

Why expand? Getting to 12 teams would allow the league to split into divisions and further reduce travel costs.

BlackFalkin wrote:they have a point.
scholarships =1.5 mill vs only 150,000 in penny pinching travel costs.

What they should do is upgrade their facilities with the money they are saving to attrack potential athletes that might be swayed.

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: I'm beginning to think that you may work for Stadium Upgrade Construction Co. BF.

danefan wrote:BTW, they've underestimated the scholarship costs because they haven't included the required TItle IX component. So in reality you're talking about $2.5 to $3 million as the real cost of scholarships.


This is the first time I've seen the PFL lay out their philosophy on paper with the numbers to back it up. In the past everyone has said that their travel costs must be huge and that they wouldn't spend much more on scholarships. Well, that argument simply doesn't hold water.

Georgetown fans laughed at me when I posted over at AGS on this issue, but I'd be willing to bet $100 that if the Patriot goes to scholarship, G'town will be in the PFL before the ink is dry on the Patriot league press release about scholarships.

Georgetown will save over $1 million a year in the PFL and the quality of play on the field could be the same (or better IMO). They'll be the favorite to win 5 games a year and that helps recruiting, even without a grant-in-aid model.

Savannah State should consider the PFL also. They could stay DI and invest that extra money saved into their other horrnedous programs. That could create a 12 team PFL and two divisions:

East
Marist
Campbell
Georgetown
Davidson
Jacksonville
Savannah St.

West
Valpo
Butler
San Diego
Dayton
Drake
Morehead St.

Play a league championship game in place of the playoffs (unless they get an at-large) and you have a nice little league.

BlackFalkin wrote:

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: I'm beginning to think that you may work for Stadium Upgrade Construction Co. BF.

What can i say, I love a good stadium. Take a look at Jacksonville's stadium when you get a chance.

danefan wrote:BTW, they've underestimated the scholarship costs because they haven't included the required TItle IX component. So in reality you're talking about $2.5 to $3 million as the real cost of scholarships.


This is the first time I've seen the PFL lay out their philosophy on paper with the numbers to back it up. In the past everyone has said that their travel costs must be huge and that they wouldn't spend much more on scholarships. Well, that argument simply doesn't hold water.

Georgetown fans laughed at me when I posted over at AGS on this issue, but I'd be willing to bet $100 that if the Patriot goes to scholarship, G'town will be in the PFL before the ink is dry on the Patriot league press release about scholarships.

Georgetown will save over $1 million a year in the PFL and the quality of play on the field could be the same (or better IMO). They'll be the favorite to win 5 games a year and that helps recruiting, even without a grant-in-aid model.

Savannah State should consider the PFL also. They could stay DI and invest that extra money saved into their other horrnedous programs. That could create a 12 team PFL and two divisions:

East
Marist
Campbell
Georgetown
Davidson
Jacksonville
Savannah St.

West
Valpo
Butler
San Diego
Dayton
Drake
Morehead St.

Play a league championship game in place of the playoffs (unless they get an at-large) and you have a nice little league.

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:

BlackFalkin wrote: What can i say, I love a good stadium. Take a look at Jacksonville's stadium when you get a chance.

Yeah, I think that was actually one of the stadiums I did for the database. It was a little sad seeing what some of the teams have to get by with.

BlackFalkin wrote:

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Yeah, I think that was actually one of the stadiums I did for the database. It was a little sad seeing what some of the teams have to get by with.

good job on the database. BTW Jacksonville stadium is listed @5,000.......GET THE FV*K OUTTA HERE!

danefan wrote:Timely discussion folks:

http://www.missoulian.com/sports/colleg ... e2aa9.html

The numbers seem to bear that out.

A full scholarship to Campbell _ a private, Baptist school of about 6,800 located an hour's drive south of Raleigh _ is worth roughly $24,000, which means that meeting the FCS standard of 63 scholarships would cost the school about $1.5 million, athletic director Stan Williamson said. The Camels' football travel budget is a fraction of that, ranging between $100,000 and $150,000, he said.

Bostonspider wrote:

danefan wrote:Timely discussion folks:

http://www.missoulian.com/sports/colleg ... e2aa9.html

I question those numbers a little, in they do not take into account how many of those 63 players are already on financial aid. I would imagine at least 50% are on some part of aid, so while the athletic department might now be paying the scholarship instead of financial aid, the net cost to the university would be much lower than 1.5 Million.

Mike Johnson wrote:This is a good discussion. Question, is the Patriot League also non-scholarship?

The model might be the same between the PFL and the Ivy League, but it is a case of 8 very rich (large endowments) and 9 schools with much smaller endowments.

I don't think academic scholarships can be changed into athletic grants in aid. Scholarships are funded by donations or appropriations for specific purposes. That said, when 70-80 players at San Diego get academic scholarships, I find it amusing to think of it as a non-scholarship team.

If the PFL goes to 12 teams in two divisions, would they not play 5 division opponents and 2 or 3 cross-division opponents. I am not sure how that would reduce travel that much from the current system.

I have wondered if Utah Valley started a football team, whether they would choose to go the PFL route. True, being in the Great West would facilitate joining the Great West in football. A few years ago, the school estimated that it would require another $1.8 million to field a football team--in part because of female scholarships in other sports to maintain or improve the gender balance. Today, it would have to be higher. 63 scholarships would cost about $400K for the school (assuming half are for in-state students). Add female scholarships in other sports and that would probably mean about $800K. Not the 1.5 or 3 million for the private schools discussed here, but still a lot. Going PFL would save about $800K, but travel costs would be worse than in the Great West (the two closest schools--San Diego and Drake would be the only ones inside the footprint of the Great West in football), but probably no worse than faced by current PFL teams. Saving $800K for maybe $50K of additional travel (traveling the PFL way, but further than in the Great West, but maybe not even $50K more) might be a consideration. I imagine that coaching salaries in the PFL would be less than in the Great West, where one would want to be more competitive, I would think. So, is it worth getting football, even if it is in the PFL? Perhaps it would be a good way for UVU to get into football, another option if the Great West continues to be too expensive.

Franks Tanks wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:This is a good discussion. Question, is the Patriot League also non-scholarship?

The model might be the same between the PFL and the Ivy League, but it is a case of 8 very rich (large endowments) and 9 schools with much smaller endowments.

I don't think academic scholarships can be changed into athletic grants in aid. Scholarships are funded by donations or appropriations for specific purposes. That said, when 70-80 players at San Diego get academic scholarships, I find it amusing to think of it as a non-scholarship team.

If the PFL goes to 12 teams in two divisions, would they not play 5 division opponents and 2 or 3 cross-division opponents. I am not sure how that would reduce travel that much from the current system.

I have wondered if Utah Valley started a football team, whether they would choose to go the PFL route. True, being in the Great West would facilitate joining the Great West in football. A few years ago, the school estimated that it would require another $1.8 million to field a football team--in part because of female scholarships in other sports to maintain or improve the gender balance. Today, it would have to be higher. 63 scholarships would cost about $400K for the school (assuming half are for in-state students). Add female scholarships in other sports and that would probably mean about $800K. Not the 1.5 or 3 million for the private schools discussed here, but still a lot. Going PFL would save about $800K, but travel costs would be worse than in the Great West (the two closest schools--San Diego and Drake would be the only ones inside the footprint of the Great West in football), but probably no worse than faced by current PFL teams. Saving $800K for maybe $50K of additional travel (traveling the PFL way, but further than in the Great West, but maybe not even $50K more) might be a consideration. I imagine that coaching salaries in the PFL would be less than in the Great West, where one would want to be more competitive, I would think. So, is it worth getting football, even if it is in the PFL? Perhaps it would be a good way for UVU to get into football, another option if the Great West continues to be too expensive.

The Patriot League provides needs based aid for football players. It is not a true scholarship as aid is only given to match the "percieved financial need". However, because this aid is available only to FB players it is counted as scholarship money by the NCAA and therefore the PL isnt non-scholarship. The difference is that if a PL player quit the team, he would get much less aid. An Ivy of PFL player can quit the team and still recieve the exact same amount of aid from their respective school.

danefan wrote:

Franks Tanks wrote:

The Patriot League provides needs based aid for football players. It is not a true scholarship as aid is only given to match the "percieved financial need". However, because this aid is available only to FB players it is counted as scholarship money by the NCAA and therefore the PL isnt non-scholarship. The difference is that if a PL player quit the team, he would get much less aid. An Ivy of PFL player can quit the team and still recieve the exact same amount of aid from their respective school.

But, the PL has apparently found some loop hole in Title IX which doesn't require them (or hasn't been enforced against them) to count their aid for football in their Title IX calculations. Thus, my understanding is that most of the PL schools do not counter their football aid with female aid. Fordham does and that was why it was so easy for them to convert to scholarships from grants-in-aid.