The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

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The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by kalm »

I think we are indeed too tribal and the woke left has often over-stepped…but Nathan G. Robinson makes some solid explanations for why “extreme” stances on issues are sometimes called for. Not to mention the hyperbole regarding the threat from the left.
Tim Urban is a blogger known for his website “Wait But Why,” which mixes (deliberately poor quality) drawings with text to explain subjects from artificial intelligence to procrastination. Urban’s blog was quite popular, and he did a TED talk that racked up 50 million views, but six years ago he stopped updating his site to go and work on a book. That book, What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book For Societies, has now been published. It is over 700 pages long, has been endorsed by Elon Musk, and to hear Urban tell it, writing the book consumed his life. What began as another explainer post spiraled into a comprehensive treaty on the nature of human society that aims to conclusively diagnose the ills facing our species and propose remedies. Urban, who worked on this from age 35 to age 41, believes he has produced a magnum opus, “a new framework for thinking about our complex political environment,” “a new perspective on the world, on politics, on group dynamics, on how we think and why we believe the things we believe.”

What did Urban come up with after six years of reflection and research? What is the grand new Perspective On Everything that he presents over the course of 121,000 words and 300 of his signature scribbly drawings? Well, I don’t think it’s oversimplifying things too much to say that the core idea is that People Should Be More Reasonable, and that we need a sensible centrist politics that rejects the Tribalistic Extremism of both left and right. Urban is particularly concerned that leftist movements for social justice are wrecking the foundations of the civilized order. If you want to locate him politically, I think Urban roughly shares the viewpoints of Bill Maher and Joe Rogan, both of whom reject left-right labels but spend a lot of time whining about Wokeness……..
A snippet from Robinson’s critique:
But while I could go through all of Urban’s overstatements and bad arguments about social justice (he does the maddening “the gender wage gap isn’t real” thing that I refute in Responding to the Right), I’m more interested in the focus of this book. Remember, Urban went off for six years to research and think and write, and to come up with a comprehensive theory of what society’s deepest problems are and how we ought to solve them. And the answer he came up with is that angry people in politics are the problem, with “social justice fundamentalism” being the problem he devotes more time to than any other.

To which I can only say: have you looked around you lately? Urban writes a 700-page book on politics, filled with citations to current events, without considering the problems of nuclear proliferation, the climate crisis, the decimation of Earth’s biodiversity, animal farming, global wealth inequality, plutocracy, exploitation in the workplace, medical bankruptcy, opioid deaths, police brutality, homelessness, mass incarceration, COVID, unaffordable housing, student debt, or voter suppression. How out of touch with the basic facts of the world do you have to be to think that ethnic studies programs merit more attention than all of these colossal problems facing humanity? The title of Urban’s book is literally What’s Our Problem? Somehow the answer he comes up with isn’t, “We’re moving aggressively toward World War III and billions of people live in preventable misery.” It’s, “American politics are too tribal and people are rude to each other, plus those woke people are The Real Authoritarians (even though they don’t put anyone in prison and are often prison abolitionists).

I think Urban is grossly unfair to the social justice movements he spends chapter after chapter attacking in the book, and it’s obvious he’s a hypocrite who doesn’t practice his professed values of empathy and self-criticism. The book drips with arrogant certitude. But more importantly, I’m horrified that someone exists who could be this oblivious toward all the actual problems that people face in the world we live in. Urban clearly lives in a pleasant insular world where the worst problem you might encounter is that you find diversity training talking points with Robin DiAngelo to be really annoying. But what about the world where people go bankrupt because they get sick? What about the children working in factories and fields? What about the migrants in cages? How can you not notice any of that? How can you honestly think that too much Social Justice Activism is what matters? A 700-page treatise about The Problems With Our Society, and not once are the most serious forms of human suffering considered to be important. In fact, Urban makes it clear that he doesn’t really have a stance on that stuff. He says that the tribes in our country have “checklists” about the good stuff and the bad stuff and they go like this…
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/03/ ... efensible/
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by Pwns »

Anyone who thinks that income inequality, climate, etc are more important than culture war issues has to recognize how toxic the identitarian issues are.

When Democrats cuck out at raising the federal minimum wage (which has won referendums in Florida and Nebraska) but brags about how hard they worked to set a record for the number of LGBTWTF people in their cabinet all they send a clear message to everyone and just stoke the fires of the culture war.

And of course it doesn't help that the Donks that do talk about these issues are the AOCs and Rashida Tlaibs that are divisive for other reasons.
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by kalm »

Pwns wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:01 pm Anyone who thinks that income inequality, climate, etc are more important than culture war issues has to recognize how toxic the identitarian issues are.

When Democrats cuck out at raising the federal minimum wage (which has won referendums in Florida and Nebraska) but brags about how hard they worked to set a record for the number of LGBTWTF people in their cabinet all they send a clear message to everyone and just stoke the fires of the culture war.

And of course it doesn't help that the Donks that do talk about these issues are the AOCs and Rashida Tlaibs that are divisive for other reasons.
You’re agreeing with Robinson in several ways here.
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:43 am I think we are indeed too tribal and the woke left has often over-stepped…but Nathan G. Robinson makes some solid explanations for why “extreme” stances on issues are sometimes called for. Not to mention the hyperbole regarding the threat from the left.
Tim Urban is a blogger known for his website “Wait But Why,” which mixes (deliberately poor quality) drawings with text to explain subjects from artificial intelligence to procrastination. Urban’s blog was quite popular, and he did a TED talk that racked up 50 million views, but six years ago he stopped updating his site to go and work on a book. That book, What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book For Societies, has now been published. It is over 700 pages long, has been endorsed by Elon Musk, and to hear Urban tell it, writing the book consumed his life. What began as another explainer post spiraled into a comprehensive treaty on the nature of human society that aims to conclusively diagnose the ills facing our species and propose remedies. Urban, who worked on this from age 35 to age 41, believes he has produced a magnum opus, “a new framework for thinking about our complex political environment,” “a new perspective on the world, on politics, on group dynamics, on how we think and why we believe the things we believe.”

What did Urban come up with after six years of reflection and research? What is the grand new Perspective On Everything that he presents over the course of 121,000 words and 300 of his signature scribbly drawings? Well, I don’t think it’s oversimplifying things too much to say that the core idea is that People Should Be More Reasonable, and that we need a sensible centrist politics that rejects the Tribalistic Extremism of both left and right. Urban is particularly concerned that leftist movements for social justice are wrecking the foundations of the civilized order. If you want to locate him politically, I think Urban roughly shares the viewpoints of Bill Maher and Joe Rogan, both of whom reject left-right labels but spend a lot of time whining about Wokeness……..
A snippet from Robinson’s critique:
But while I could go through all of Urban’s overstatements and bad arguments about social justice (he does the maddening “the gender wage gap isn’t real” thing that I refute in Responding to the Right), I’m more interested in the focus of this book. Remember, Urban went off for six years to research and think and write, and to come up with a comprehensive theory of what society’s deepest problems are and how we ought to solve them. And the answer he came up with is that angry people in politics are the problem, with “social justice fundamentalism” being the problem he devotes more time to than any other.

To which I can only say: have you looked around you lately? Urban writes a 700-page book on politics, filled with citations to current events, without considering the problems of nuclear proliferation, the climate crisis, the decimation of Earth’s biodiversity, animal farming, global wealth inequality, plutocracy, exploitation in the workplace, medical bankruptcy, opioid deaths, police brutality, homelessness, mass incarceration, COVID, unaffordable housing, student debt, or voter suppression. How out of touch with the basic facts of the world do you have to be to think that ethnic studies programs merit more attention than all of these colossal problems facing humanity? The title of Urban’s book is literally What’s Our Problem? Somehow the answer he comes up with isn’t, “We’re moving aggressively toward World War III and billions of people live in preventable misery.” It’s, “American politics are too tribal and people are rude to each other, plus those woke people are The Real Authoritarians (even though they don’t put anyone in prison and are often prison abolitionists).

I think Urban is grossly unfair to the social justice movements he spends chapter after chapter attacking in the book, and it’s obvious he’s a hypocrite who doesn’t practice his professed values of empathy and self-criticism. The book drips with arrogant certitude. But more importantly, I’m horrified that someone exists who could be this oblivious toward all the actual problems that people face in the world we live in. Urban clearly lives in a pleasant insular world where the worst problem you might encounter is that you find diversity training talking points with Robin DiAngelo to be really annoying. But what about the world where people go bankrupt because they get sick? What about the children working in factories and fields? What about the migrants in cages? How can you not notice any of that? How can you honestly think that too much Social Justice Activism is what matters? A 700-page treatise about The Problems With Our Society, and not once are the most serious forms of human suffering considered to be important. In fact, Urban makes it clear that he doesn’t really have a stance on that stuff. He says that the tribes in our country have “checklists” about the good stuff and the bad stuff and they go like this…
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/03/ ... efensible/
Based on the quotes alone (I haven't had time to read the whole piece), he makes good points but he completely misses the historical and economic context of where we've been and where we are.
  • Human suffering has been happening forever.
  • Capitalism while far from perfect has improved lives around the world.
  • SJW movements have and are contributing to suffering. Defund the Police has caused an increase in crime and violence. Tolerating and even encouraging homelessness and drug use has amplified suffering.
The whole my side is right or my side might be extremist but isn't as bad as the other side so let's focus on the other side is an over-simplification and won't get us the best results. We need to fix our problems and focusing on one extreme's solutions will just cause different problems.

Despite what Robinson says, balance is not only not a bad thing it can help us come up with solutions that address a greater number of issues than one extreme or the other.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:45 am
kalm wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:43 am I think we are indeed too tribal and the woke left has often over-stepped…but Nathan G. Robinson makes some solid explanations for why “extreme” stances on issues are sometimes called for. Not to mention the hyperbole regarding the threat from the left.



A snippet from Robinson’s critique:



https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/03/ ... efensible/
Based on the quotes alone (I haven't had time to read the whole piece), he makes good points but he completely misses the historical and economic context of where we've been and where we are.
  • Human suffering has been happening forever.
  • Capitalism while far from perfect has improved lives around the world.
  • SJW movements have and are contributing to suffering. Defund the Police has caused an increase in crime and violence. Tolerating and even encouraging homelessness and drug use has amplified suffering.
The whole my side is right or my side might be extremist but isn't as bad as the other side so let's focus on the other side is an over-simplification and won't get us the best results. We need to fix our problems and focusing on one extreme's solutions will just cause different problems.

Despite what Robinson says, balance is not only not a bad thing it can help us come up with solutions that address a greater number of issues than one extreme or the other.
I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum.

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:51 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:45 am
Based on the quotes alone (I haven't had time to read the whole piece), he makes good points but he completely misses the historical and economic context of where we've been and where we are.
  • Human suffering has been happening forever.
  • Capitalism while far from perfect has improved lives around the world.
  • SJW movements have and are contributing to suffering. Defund the Police has caused an increase in crime and violence. Tolerating and even encouraging homelessness and drug use has amplified suffering.
The whole my side is right or my side might be extremist but isn't as bad as the other side so let's focus on the other side is an over-simplification and won't get us the best results. We need to fix our problems and focusing on one extreme's solutions will just cause different problems.

Despite what Robinson says, balance is not only not a bad thing it can help us come up with solutions that address a greater number of issues than one extreme or the other.
I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum.

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
It's not that I disagree with much of it. It's that I disagree with the "we're not as bad as they are and because of that everyone should have the same priorities as we do" approach. There are things that the illiberal left wants that I think we should be pursuing just like there are things that MAGAts want that I think we should be pursuing. If that isn't "supporting the superior idea in each particular case" then I don't know what is.
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:51 pm
UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:45 am

Based on the quotes alone (I haven't had time to read the whole piece), he makes good points but he completely misses the historical and economic context of where we've been and where we are.
  • Human suffering has been happening forever.
  • Capitalism while far from perfect has improved lives around the world.
  • SJW movements have and are contributing to suffering. Defund the Police has caused an increase in crime and violence. Tolerating and even encouraging homelessness and drug use has amplified suffering.
The whole my side is right or my side might be extremist but isn't as bad as the other side so let's focus on the other side is an over-simplification and won't get us the best results. We need to fix our problems and focusing on one extreme's solutions will just cause different problems.

Despite what Robinson says, balance is not only not a bad thing it can help us come up with solutions that address a greater number of issues than one extreme or the other.
I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum.

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
It's exactly that last point you make that Robinson seems to not understand. His quote near the end of the article was:
And here you have the problem with centrists: they won’t call an atrocity an atrocity, because this would be tribal and extreme. They won’t fight to end a horrific injustice, because the very idea of a horrific injustice has no place in their vocabulary.
That's the major misunderstanding about moderates or centrists - that they don't care strongly about something, or anything. Of course they do, they're not just milquetoast people sitting in the middle saying that we should just be civil to each other all the time. What makes them "centrists" or "moderates" is, more importantly, that they don't think either side of the political debate is always (or mostly) right and that the other side if always (or mostly) wrong. What's right or wrong can be found on either side of the debate on any given day. One day a Democrat could be unbelievably wrong on an issue, and the next day, on a different issue, they could be absolutely in the right. People like Robinson don't seem to like that inconvenient truth as they do believe that what they believe is so right and so important that any opposition to it is blasphemous and that opposing their beliefs is not only wrong but also not worthy of being allowed. Positions like Robinson's are the problem we have today - no self reflection or constructive review since people like him think they're absolutely right. When they're actually wrong that's where the problems start. :thumb:
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:00 pm
kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:51 pm

I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum.

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
It's exactly that last point you make that Robinson seems to not understand. His quote near the end of the article was:
And here you have the problem with centrists: they won’t call an atrocity an atrocity, because this would be tribal and extreme. They won’t fight to end a horrific injustice, because the very idea of a horrific injustice has no place in their vocabulary.
That's the major misunderstanding about moderates or centrists - that they don't care strongly about something, or anything. Of course they do, they're not just milquetoast people sitting in the middle saying that we should just be civil to each other all the time. What makes them "centrists" or "moderates" is, more importantly, that they don't think either side of the political debate is always (or mostly) right and that the other side if always (or mostly) wrong. What's right or wrong can be found on either side of the debate on any given day. One day a Democrat could be unbelievably wrong on an issue, and the next day, on a different issue, they could be absolutely in the right. People like Robinson don't seem to like that inconvenient truth as they do believe that what they believe is so right and so important that any opposition to it is blasphemous and that opposing their beliefs is not only wrong but also not worthy of being allowed. Positions like Robinson's are the problem we have today - no self reflection or constructive review since people like him think they're absolutely right. When they're actually wrong that's where the problems start. :thumb:
:nod: I wouldn't be considered a centrist because all of my positions are moderate, I would be considered a centrist because my positions are moderate when averaged together. I am a strong believer in capitalism and the market but I also believe that we should be taking reasonable to steps to mitigate our impact on the environment and climate. I believe that law enforcement plays a critical role in society and we should be supporting them and helping them to improve but I also strongly believe in LGBTQ+ rights.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:13 pm
GannonFan wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 2:00 pm

It's exactly that last point you make that Robinson seems to not understand. His quote near the end of the article was:



That's the major misunderstanding about moderates or centrists - that they don't care strongly about something, or anything. Of course they do, they're not just milquetoast people sitting in the middle saying that we should just be civil to each other all the time. What makes them "centrists" or "moderates" is, more importantly, that they don't think either side of the political debate is always (or mostly) right and that the other side if always (or mostly) wrong. What's right or wrong can be found on either side of the debate on any given day. One day a Democrat could be unbelievably wrong on an issue, and the next day, on a different issue, they could be absolutely in the right. People like Robinson don't seem to like that inconvenient truth as they do believe that what they believe is so right and so important that any opposition to it is blasphemous and that opposing their beliefs is not only wrong but also not worthy of being allowed. Positions like Robinson's are the problem we have today - no self reflection or constructive review since people like him think they're absolutely right. When they're actually wrong that's where the problems start. :thumb:
:nod: I wouldn't be considered a centrist because all of my positions are moderate, I would be considered a centrist because my positions are moderate when averaged together. I am a strong believer in capitalism and the market but I also believe that we should be taking reasonable to steps to mitigate our impact on the environment and climate. I believe that law enforcement plays a critical role in society and we should be supporting them and helping them to improve but I also strongly believe in LGBTQ+ rights.
So you will basically be in the cell right next to mine on the left. :kisswink:

I am not a moderate, some of my beliefs are centrists, but of 20+ years ago. I think they are many people that believe like you do '88 and we need those folks in politics, the issue is when they are in a minority in politics and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Primarily because they do not get anything "done". And I put done in quotes because they, for the most part, operate behind the scenes of the kabuki theater we have going on.

For the most part I agree with your paragraph but for the the last little bit of that last sentence. I believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, and no one class/creed/religion/belief should be elevated above another. I am pretty sure you meant that but just wanted to express a point that all to often gets lost in talking about "rights". All to often a certain group of "rights" trumps somebody else because of "feelings". Example: a CEO is all in favor of "capitalism" in every aspect but their own in which they want protectionism.
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:51 pm
I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum.

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
I find it funny that you should say this in an ironic way, as I don't think you have to worry about your "soul" anymore, it has already found a home. :kisswink:
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:54 am
kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:51 pm
I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum .

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
I find it funny that you should say this in an ironic way, as I don't think you have to worry about your "soul" anymore, it has already found a home. :kisswink:
I have never been an atheist and I’m warming up to the idea of a soul. Lutheran turned pantheist maybe.

;)
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:49 pm
kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:51 pm

I didn’t expect you to agree with much of it, but that’s a fair reply.

I think the main point is taking a reasonable stance based on what is right versus a being a centrist simply for the sake of centrism. Otherwise you run the risk of being similar to the accused religious nature of atheism. So convinced of the impossibility of God that it becomes its own belief system. It’s own religion.

Goes without saying that this applies to ideas from both sides of the spectrum.

IE: what’s more important…centrism for the sake of centrism or supporting the superior idea in each particular case?
It's not that I disagree with much of it. It's that I disagree with the "we're not as bad as they are and because of that everyone should have the same priorities as we do" approach. There are things that the illiberal left wants that I think we should be pursuing just like there are things that MAGAts want that I think we should be pursuing. If that isn't "supporting the superior idea in each particular case" then I don't know what is.
I’ll allow it. :).

Where the ideas come from shouldn’t matter. If they’re good ideas, then they are good ideas.
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:51 am
UNI88 wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:13 pm

:nod: I wouldn't be considered a centrist because all of my positions are moderate, I would be considered a centrist because my positions are moderate when averaged together. I am a strong believer in capitalism and the market but I also believe that we should be taking reasonable to steps to mitigate our impact on the environment and climate. I believe that law enforcement plays a critical role in society and we should be supporting them and helping them to improve but I also strongly believe in LGBTQ+ rights.
So you will basically be in the cell right next to mine on the left. :kisswink:

I am not a moderate, some of my beliefs are centrists, but of 20+ years ago. I think they are many people that believe like you do '88 and we need those folks in politics, the issue is when they are in a minority in politics and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Primarily because they do not get anything "done". And I put done in quotes because they, for the most part, operate behind the scenes of the kabuki theater we have going on.

For the most part I agree with your paragraph but for the the last little bit of that last sentence. I believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, and no one class/creed/religion/belief should be elevated above another. I am pretty sure you meant that but just wanted to express a point that all to often gets lost in talking about "rights". All to often a certain group of "rights" trumps somebody else because of "feelings". Example: a CEO is all in favor of "capitalism" in every aspect but their own in which they want protectionism.
We'll need to learn some good prison songs. Will it be appreciation or appropriation if we sing some of those great slave songs like Sweet Chariot? I'll sing especially loud when kalm brings us our gruel. :D

I agree on the equal rights. I could change the last sentence to "but I also strongly believe in equal rights for all including LGBTQ+." That was toward MAGAts who believe that LGBTQ+ people are deviants with mental health issues.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:09 am
Winterborn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:54 am

I find it funny that you should say this in an ironic way, as I don't think you have to worry about your "soul" anymore, it has already found a home. :kisswink:
I have never been an atheist and I’m warming up to the idea of a soul. Lutheran turned pantheist maybe.

;)
Well your soul got ahead of your mind and found a home. :D

I have never been much of an organized religion person, some of which comes from being part of most of the major denominations growing up (raised Catholic, then a bunch of others) and the superficial trappings and secularism they contain turned me away. That said I do have core beliefs that I follow, which includes believing in a soul and an afterlife. Part of it comes from a few situations where I was lucky to walk away from the accidents and survive, when I should not have considering the odds. Some would call it luck, some would call it providence, others beating the exceedingly slim odds. As an engineer, I have never been a believer in "luck" (believe we make our own though our choices or not choosing) and can understand both of the two remaining "explanations" but in at least one of the instances those odds were less than 10% I would walk away. Couple that with a fascination of math, nature, and astronomy, (and way too much philosophical reading) which lead me down the road that there is a "higher" power.

But that is just me, and I am a firm believer in that we all have a path to walk and that path is what we make it. Plus the above stance makes it fun to debate both sides and I do love a good knockdown debate. :lol:
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:23 am
Winterborn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:51 am

So you will basically be in the cell right next to mine on the left. :kisswink:

I am not a moderate, some of my beliefs are centrists, but of 20+ years ago. I think they are many people that believe like you do '88 and we need those folks in politics, the issue is when they are in a minority in politics and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Primarily because they do not get anything "done". And I put done in quotes because they, for the most part, operate behind the scenes of the kabuki theater we have going on.

For the most part I agree with your paragraph but for the the last little bit of that last sentence. I believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, and no one class/creed/religion/belief should be elevated above another. I am pretty sure you meant that but just wanted to express a point that all to often gets lost in talking about "rights". All to often a certain group of "rights" trumps somebody else because of "feelings". Example: a CEO is all in favor of "capitalism" in every aspect but their own in which they want protectionism.
We'll need to learn some good prison songs. Will it be appreciation or appropriation if we sing some of those great slave songs like Sweet Chariot? I'll sing especially loud when kalm brings us our gruel. :D

I agree on the equal rights. I could change the last sentence to "but I also strongly believe in equal rights for all including LGBTQ+." That was toward MAGAts who believe that LGBTQ+ people are deviants with mental health issues.
I sing a pretty good Amazing Grace and know most of the versus to I'll Fly Away. And I guess we will just have to find out based on the meals Kalm feeds us our porridge. :D

I figured as much. :thumb: There are segments of both of those groups that do have mental health issues, but it is no more, nor less than those of society in general. Those that do have it, need to get help and I am all for that. At least in a none-government determined way. ;)
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:49 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 8:09 am

I have never been an atheist and I’m warming up to the idea of a soul. Lutheran turned pantheist maybe.

;)
Well your soul got ahead of your mind and found a home. :D

I have never been much of an organized religion person, some of which comes from being part of most of the major denominations growing up (raised Catholic, then a bunch of others) and the superficial trappings and secularism they contain turned me away. That said I do have core beliefs that I follow, which includes believing in a soul and an afterlife. Part of it comes from a few situations where I was lucky to walk away from the accidents and survive, when I should not have considering the odds. Some would call it luck, some would call it providence, others beating the exceedingly slim odds. As an engineer, I have never been a believer in "luck" (believe we make our own though our choices or not choosing) and can understand both of the two remaining "explanations" but in at least one of the instances those odds were less than 10% I would walk away. Couple that with a fascination of math, nature, and astronomy, (and way too much philosophical reading) which lead me down the road that there is a "higher" power.

But that is just me, and I am a firm believer in that we all have a path to walk and that path is what we make it. Plus the above stance makes it fun to debate both sides and I do love a good knockdown debate. :lol:
I posted something for you in the kalm’s soul thread along these lines.
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by houndawg »

kalm wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:24 am
Pwns wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:01 pm Anyone who thinks that income inequality, climate, etc are more important than culture war issues has to recognize how toxic the identitarian issues are.

When Democrats cuck out at raising the federal minimum wage (which has won referendums in Florida and Nebraska) but brags about how hard they worked to set a record for the number of LGBTWTF people in their cabinet all they send a clear message to everyone and just stoke the fires of the culture war.

And of course it doesn't help that the Donks that do talk about these issues are the AOCs and Rashida Tlaibs that are divisive for other reasons.
You’re agreeing with Robinson in several ways here.
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The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: The Trojan Horse of Illiberalism

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:23 am
Winterborn wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:51 am

So you will basically be in the cell right next to mine on the left. :kisswink:

I am not a moderate, some of my beliefs are centrists, but of 20+ years ago. I think they are many people that believe like you do '88 and we need those folks in politics, the issue is when they are in a minority in politics and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Primarily because they do not get anything "done". And I put done in quotes because they, for the most part, operate behind the scenes of the kabuki theater we have going on.

For the most part I agree with your paragraph but for the the last little bit of that last sentence. I believe in equal rights for EVERYONE, and no one class/creed/religion/belief should be elevated above another. I am pretty sure you meant that but just wanted to express a point that all to often gets lost in talking about "rights". All to often a certain group of "rights" trumps somebody else because of "feelings". Example: a CEO is all in favor of "capitalism" in every aspect but their own in which they want protectionism.
We'll need to learn some good prison songs. Will it be appreciation or appropriation if we sing some of those great slave songs like Sweet Chariot? I'll sing especially loud when kalm brings us our gruel. :D

I agree on the equal rights. I could change the last sentence to "but I also strongly believe in equal rights for all including LGBTQ+." That was toward MAGAts who believe that LGBTQ+ people are deviants with mental health issues.
Back in the day I played some rugby and one of the things I learned doing that was how to sign-sing that song for the deaf.
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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