Welcome To Hell, Elon

Political discussions
Post Reply
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Interesting rant. Makes sense on the surface. Time will tell.
I say this with utter confidence because the problems with Twitter are not engineering problems. They are political problems. Twitter, the company, makes very little interesting technology; the tech stack is not the valuable asset. The asset is the user base: hopelessly addicted politicians, reporters, celebrities, and other people who should know better but keep posting anyway. You! You, Elon Musk, are addicted to Twitter. You’re the asset. You just bought yourself for $44 billion dollars.

The problem when the asset is people is that people are intensely complicated, and trying to regulate how people behave is historically a miserable experience, especially when that authority is vested in a single powerful individual.

What I mean is that you are now the King of Twitter, and people think that you, personally, are responsible for everything that happens on Twitter now. It also turns out that absolute monarchs usually get murdered when shit goes sideways.

Here are some examples: you can write as many polite letters to advertisers as you want, but you cannot reasonably expect to collect any meaningful advertising revenue if you do not promise those advertisers “brand safety.” That means you have to ban racism, sexism, transphobia, and all kinds of other speech that is totally legal in the United States but reveals people to be total assholes. So you can make all the promises about “free speech” you want, but the dull reality is that you still have to ban a bunch of legal speech if you want to make money. And when you start doing that, your creepy new right-wing fanboys are going to viciously turn on you, just like they turn on every other social network that realizes the same essential truth.

Actually, there’s a step before trying to get the ad money: it turns out that most people do not want to participate in horrible unmoderated internet spaces full of shitty racists and not-all-men fedora bullies. (This is why Twitter is so small compared to its peers!) What most people want from social media is to have nice experiences and to feel validated all the time. They want to live at Disney World. So if you want more people to join Twitter and actually post tweets, you have to make the experience much, much more pleasant. Which means: moderating more aggressively! Again, every “alternative” social network has learned this lesson the hard way. Like, over and over and over again.

Also, everyone crying about “free speech” conveniently ignores that the biggest threat to free speech in America is the fucking government, which seems completely bored of the First Amendment. They’re out here banning books, Elon! President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump have identical policy positions on Section 230: they both want to repeal it. Do you know why? Because the First Amendment prohibits them from making explicit speech regulations, so they keep threatening to repeal the law that allows social networks to even exist in order to exert indirect pressure on content policy. It’s not subtle!

State governments are even less subtle: both Texas and Florida have passed speech regulations that overtly tell social media companies how to moderate, in open hostility to the First Amendment. Figuring out how to comply with these laws is not an engineering problem (not least because compliance might be impossible). It is a legal problem because these laws are blatantly unconstitutional, and the only appropriate response to them is to tell the government to shut up and go away. (A big problem here is that the courts are pretty stupid about the internet!) A challenge to these laws, partially funded by Twitter, is headed to the Supreme Court, which is the polar opposite of a predictable system: it is a group of uncool weirdos with lifetime appointments that can radically reshape American life however it wants.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/28/234 ... moderation
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7276
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Pwns »

It's naive to assume Musk is buying Twitter in order to change the content moderation policy. I wish we he were, but he's not paying over $40 billion just to do that.

It's much more likely the guy thinks he can monetize social media in a way that's unprecedented, probably with some kind of cockamamie AI.
Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
Baldy
Level4
Level4
Posts: 9609
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Southern

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:39 am Interesting rant. Makes sense on the surface. Time will tell.
I say this with utter confidence because the problems with Twitter are not engineering problems. They are political problems. Twitter, the company, makes very little interesting technology; the tech stack is not the valuable asset. The asset is the user base: hopelessly addicted politicians, reporters, celebrities, and other people who should know better but keep posting anyway. You! You, Elon Musk, are addicted to Twitter. You’re the asset. You just bought yourself for $44 billion dollars.

The problem when the asset is people is that people are intensely complicated, and trying to regulate how people behave is historically a miserable experience, especially when that authority is vested in a single powerful individual.

What I mean is that you are now the King of Twitter, and people think that you, personally, are responsible for everything that happens on Twitter now. It also turns out that absolute monarchs usually get murdered when shit goes sideways.

Here are some examples: you can write as many polite letters to advertisers as you want, but you cannot reasonably expect to collect any meaningful advertising revenue if you do not promise those advertisers “brand safety.” That means you have to ban racism, sexism, transphobia, and all kinds of other speech that is totally legal in the United States but reveals people to be total assholes. So you can make all the promises about “free speech” you want, but the dull reality is that you still have to ban a bunch of legal speech if you want to make money. And when you start doing that, your creepy new right-wing fanboys are going to viciously turn on you, just like they turn on every other social network that realizes the same essential truth.

Actually, there’s a step before trying to get the ad money: it turns out that most people do not want to participate in horrible unmoderated internet spaces full of shitty racists and not-all-men fedora bullies. (This is why Twitter is so small compared to its peers!) What most people want from social media is to have nice experiences and to feel validated all the time. They want to live at Disney World. So if you want more people to join Twitter and actually post tweets, you have to make the experience much, much more pleasant. Which means: moderating more aggressively! Again, every “alternative” social network has learned this lesson the hard way. Like, over and over and over again.

Also, everyone crying about “free speech” conveniently ignores that the biggest threat to free speech in America is the fucking government, which seems completely bored of the First Amendment. They’re out here banning books, Elon! President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump have identical policy positions on Section 230: they both want to repeal it. Do you know why? Because the First Amendment prohibits them from making explicit speech regulations, so they keep threatening to repeal the law that allows social networks to even exist in order to exert indirect pressure on content policy. It’s not subtle!

State governments are even less subtle: both Texas and Florida have passed speech regulations that overtly tell social media companies how to moderate, in open hostility to the First Amendment. Figuring out how to comply with these laws is not an engineering problem (not least because compliance might be impossible). It is a legal problem because these laws are blatantly unconstitutional, and the only appropriate response to them is to tell the government to shut up and go away. (A big problem here is that the courts are pretty stupid about the internet!) A challenge to these laws, partially funded by Twitter, is headed to the Supreme Court, which is the polar opposite of a predictable system: it is a group of uncool weirdos with lifetime appointments that can radically reshape American life however it wants.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/28/234 ... moderation
These poor people are broken. :lol:
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7276
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Pwns »

Pwns wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:11 am It's naive to assume Musk is buying Twitter in order to change the content moderation policy. I wish we he were, but he's not paying over $40 billion just to do that.

It's much more likely the guy thinks he can monetize social media in a way that's unprecedented, probably with some kind of cockamamie AI.
:lol:

Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
User avatar
SuperHornet
SuperHornet
SuperHornet
Posts: 20306
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:24 pm
I am a fan of: Sac State
Location: Twentynine Palms, CA

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by SuperHornet »

Me (to me): Read the Tweet, dummy!

(I wasn't getting the relevance to the thread title addressing itself to Elon U. SMH....)
Image

SuperHornet's Athletics Hall of Fame includes Jacksonville State kicker Ashley Martin, the first girl to score in a Division I football game. She kicked 3 PATs in a 2001 game for J-State.
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 28297
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by BDKJMU »

What a bunch of utter nonsense. Advertisers aren’t going shy away from Twitter if the truth is allowed to be told. And the truth isn’t racist or sexist like that author claims.
-People in 2020 were banned for stating that Covid came from a Chinese lab.
-People in 2021 were banned for poiting out that the vaccines don’t keep you from getting or spreading the virus, which Twitter labeled medical disiniformation. Ex see Alex Berenson.
-People were banned for spreading the Hunter Bidem laptop story, with Twitter claiming it was Russian disinfo, which was a lie. Ex see where Twitter locked the NY Post Twitter account, and anyone else who tried to spread the story.
-People have been banned for stating that a man pretending to be a woman is still a man, which Twitter has ludicrously labeled as hate speech or something.

The above type of things aren’t going to happen under Elon, amd that is trying the blue check left batshit crazy. :nod:
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:29 am What a bunch of utter nonsense. Advertisers aren’t going shy away from Twitter if the truth is allowed to be told. And the truth isn’t racist or sexist like that author claims.
-People in 2020 were banned for stating that Covid came from a Chinese lab.
-People in 2021 were banned for poiting out that the vaccines don’t keep you from getting or spreading the virus, which Twitter labeled medical disiniformation. Ex see Alex Berenson.
-People were banned for spreading the Hunter Bidem laptop story, with Twitter claiming it was Russian disinfo, which was a lie. Ex see where Twitter locked the NY Post Twitter account, and anyone else who tried to spread the story.
-People have been banned for stating that a man pretending to be a woman is still a man, which Twitter has ludicrously labeled as hate speech or something.

The above type of things aren’t going to happen under Elon, amd that is trying the blue check left batshit crazy. :nod:
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 28297
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by BDKJMU »

Twitter will have plenty of advertisers because of eyeballs. Also while keeping free accounts, they’re upping the price for their premium from $5 to $20 a month..
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by SDHornet »

kalm wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:43 am
BDKJMU wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:29 am What a bunch of utter nonsense. Advertisers aren’t going shy away from Twitter if the truth is allowed to be told. And the truth isn’t racist or sexist like that author claims.
-People in 2020 were banned for stating that Covid came from a Chinese lab.
-People in 2021 were banned for poiting out that the vaccines don’t keep you from getting or spreading the virus, which Twitter labeled medical disiniformation. Ex see Alex Berenson.
-People were banned for spreading the Hunter Bidem laptop story, with Twitter claiming it was Russian disinfo, which was a lie. Ex see where Twitter locked the NY Post Twitter account, and anyone else who tried to spread the story.
-People have been banned for stating that a man pretending to be a woman is still a man, which Twitter has ludicrously labeled as hate speech or something.

The above type of things aren’t going to happen under Elon, amd that is trying the blue check left batshit crazy. :nod:
Somebody needs to read up on #DHSLeaks
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7276
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Pwns »

Trumpian trolling.

Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 28297
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by BDKJMU »



:lol:
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 28297
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by BDKJMU »

Joe Biden told 11,000 Keystone XL pipeline workers to just find another job. Twitter employees can do the same.
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:21 pm Twitter will have plenty of advertisers because of eyeballs. Also while keeping free accounts, they’re upping the price for their premium from $5 to $20 a month..
Image
Image
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Well that lasted long…

Image
Image
Image
Baldy
Level4
Level4
Posts: 9609
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Southern

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:43 pm Well that lasted long…

Ben would have a point (first time for everything) but as usual he's wrong. Impersonating someone without being labeled parody has always been in Twitter's TOS as a violation that will earn you a permanent suspension. :lol:
User avatar
Winterborn
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 8812
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:33 pm
I am a fan of: Beer and Diesel Pickups
Location: Wherever I hang my hat

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:57 am
BDKJMU wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:21 pm Twitter will have plenty of advertisers because of eyeballs. Also while keeping free accounts, they’re upping the price for their premium from $5 to $20 a month..
Suspend is not canceled. Business decisions are never made in a vacuum and it behooves advertisers to know what platform (and its rules/demographics/etc.) they are advertising on.

That said several of those brands listed pulled their advertisement dollars before Musk took over, due to their ads appearing next to posts with child porn in them.

And like every other twatter post, there is always more to the story. But then it is up to the reader to not blindly accept what is written.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:55 am
kalm wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:57 am

Suspend is not canceled. Business decisions are never made in a vacuum and it behooves advertisers to know what platform (and its rules/demographics/etc.) they are advertising on.

That said several of those brands listed pulled their advertisement dollars before Musk took over, due to their ads appearing next to posts with child porn in them.

And like every other twatter post, there is always more to the story. But then it is up to the reader to not blindly accept what is written.
Twitter allows child porn?
:?
Image
Image
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:22 pm
kalm wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:43 pm Well that lasted long…

Ben would have a point (first time for everything) but as usual he's wrong. Impersonating someone without being labeled parody has always been in Twitter's TOS as a violation that will earn you a permanent suspension. :lol:
Well you’d think Elon would allow it now on account of freedom. Is Twitter enforcing this across all parody accounts?
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Winterborn
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 8812
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:33 pm
I am a fan of: Beer and Diesel Pickups
Location: Wherever I hang my hat

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:11 am
Winterborn wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:55 am
Suspend is not canceled. Business decisions are never made in a vacuum and it behooves advertisers to know what platform (and its rules/demographics/etc.) they are advertising on.

That said several of those brands listed pulled their advertisement dollars before Musk took over, due to their ads appearing next to posts with child porn in them.

And like every other twatter post, there is always more to the story. But then it is up to the reader to not blindly accept what is written.
Twitter allows child porn?
:?
Your first month is free. :coffee:

(Look up the Reuters investigation on security and keeping track of their own content)
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:14 am
kalm wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:11 am

Twitter allows child porn?
:?
Your first month is free. :coffee:

(Look up the Reuters investigation on security and keeping track of their own content)
You’re not the boss of me. Throw up a link…that’s an order! ;)
Image
Image
Image
Baldy
Level4
Level4
Posts: 9609
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Southern

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Baldy »

kalm wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:13 am
Baldy wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:22 pm
Ben would have a point (first time for everything) but as usual he's wrong. Impersonating someone without being labeled parody has always been in Twitter's TOS as a violation that will earn you a permanent suspension. :lol:
Well you’d think Elon would allow it now on account of freedom. Is Twitter enforcing this across all parody accounts?
We'll see, but Twitter has always had a horrible reputation of arbitrarily enforcing it's TOS.

Of course, this doesn't even come close to rising to the point of being criminal in nature, but stealing someone's identity isn't really about freedom, is it?
User avatar
Winterborn
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 8812
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:33 pm
I am a fan of: Beer and Diesel Pickups
Location: Wherever I hang my hat

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:24 am
Winterborn wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:14 am

Your first month is free. :coffee:

(Look up the Reuters investigation on security and keeping track of their own content)
You’re not the boss of me. Throw up a link…that’s an order! ;)
And now you just appealed to my natural inclination to tell authority figures to go pound sand and doing something anatomically impossible. :lol:

So we might have reached an impasse.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Baldy wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:28 am
kalm wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:13 am

Well you’d think Elon would allow it now on account of freedom. Is Twitter enforcing this across all parody accounts?
We'll see, but Twitter has always had a horrible reputation of arbitrarily enforcing it's TOS.

Of course, this doesn't even come close to rising to the point of being criminal in nature, but stealing someone's identity isn't really about freedom, is it?
Satire and parody walk a line.
Image
Image
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59786
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:29 am
kalm wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:24 am

You’re not the boss of me. Throw up a link…that’s an order! ;)
And now you just appealed to my natural inclination to tell authority figures to go pound sand and doing something anatomically impossible. :lol:

So we might have reached an impasse.
Lol
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7276
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Welcome To Hell, Elon

Post by Pwns »

Anyone who thinks complaints about Twitter content moderation ever had anything to do with unlabeled parody accounts is just being dishonest.
Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
Post Reply