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Common Sense Gun Control
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Agreed. And at least 400 million guns in the hands of private citizens. Some claim as high as 600 million.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 8:33 pmI couldn’t disagree more. On just about every single point. Right now the fact that there are 300,000,000 guns out there in the hands of private citizens is about the ONLY thing preventing our government from becoming even MORE tyrannical.JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:46 pm It's obviously not going to happen but I actually believe we should repeal or modify the Second Amendment. I think it's obsolete and, if you take it literally, it's just not tenable. It was written for a different defense system at a different time. The Constitution says we're not supposed to have a permanent standing army. We were supposed to rely heavily on militias for defense (to repel invasions, etc.).
It's not limited to guns. It refers to "arms." "Arms" back then included a range of weapons that is a lot different from what "Arms" encompasses now.
It does not protect us from a tyrannical government. If our government decided to be tyrannical and the US military supported it people trying to resist because they have guns would be annihilated. The hope would be that the military would not go along with it. Either way the fact that private citizens have guns would not make a difference in the final outcome. If the US military went along with it and private citizens with guns thought they could take on the US military we'd get a lot of private citizens with guns killed. That's the only difference it would make.
Having guns does not, on a population level, make people safer. It's been repeatedly shown that households with guns are far more likely to have someone in their household die as a result of that than they are to end up having somebody saved by using a gun in self defense.
If we want to let people have guns for sporting purposes, fine. But this idea that it is this REALLY essential fundamental right essential to our existence as a free people is ridiculous in today's context. Freedom of speech is that. Freedom of the press is that. The right to vote is that even though it's not explicitly stated in the Constitution. The processes and institutions that, for instance, kept Trump from succeeding in his effort to corrupt our election are. Keeping and bearing arms is not.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Nope. You want to put guns with detachable mags (which the majority of guns) into the BATF tax stamp or FFL category. Violates ‘shall not be infringed’houndawg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:42 amThats what I'm talking about - nothing needs to be banned if high-capacity semi-auto weapons are placed in the same category. Everbody is blaming "the system" for these events - when the FFL system is sitting right there waiting to be used.BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 5:32 pm
I should have stated I was coming from the persepctive of Joe Q Public/non FFL.
https://guntrustnfa.com/nfa-tax-stamps-complete-guide/
Yeah for an FFL much easier, but they had to go through the proctological to get the FFL.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/how-to-g ... %20More%20
-Places an undue burden, esp on the poor and people of color.
-Fed govt can’t be trusted to efficiently run such a sytem, which would expand the tax stamp and FFL #s a hundred fold. With the current ATF backlogs would run into the millions or tens of millions, and people would have to wait years for their guns.
-Tens of millions of the 80+ million law abiding gun owners would not comply. There would be millions of boating accidents..
Last edited by BDKJMU on Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
That was written when it was assumed we wouldn't have standing armies and that the well-regulated militia troops would supply their own weapons. And the FFL puts no undue burden on anybody unless their worried about the efficiency of killing lots of people quickly.. There are literally hundreds of millions of weapons in the US that would be unaffected. And the well-regulated militia will supply your weapon when you enlist.
A bunch of fat slobs from GA does not a well-regulated militia make.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Nope- see my above edited post.houndawg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:47 amThat was written when it was assumed we wouldn't have standing armies and that the well-regulated militia troops would supply their own weapons. And the FFL puts no undue burden on anybody unless their worried about the efficiency of killing lots of people quickly.. There are literally hundreds of millions of weapons in the US that would be unaffected. And the well-regulated militia will supply your weapon when you enlist.
A bunch of fat slobs from GA does not a well-regulated militia make.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
I'm OK with that, and a gubmint cash-for-clunkers style buy back - but if you get caught afterward you're going to priso.BDKJMU wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:41 amNope. You want to put guns with detachable mags (which the majority of guns) into the BATF tax stamp or FFL category. Violates ‘shall not be infringed’
-Places an undue burden, esp on the poor and people of color.
-Fed govt can’t be trusted to efficiently run such a sytem, which would expand the tax stamp and FFL #s a hundred fold. With the current ATF backlogs would run into the millions or tens of millions, and people would have to wait years for their guns.
-Tens of millions of the 80+ million law abiding gun owners would not comply. There would be millions of boating accidents..
And your phony bullshit about and undue burden on people of color and the poor (as if you actually care ) doesn't work either. Poor people and people of color already can't afford an AR and do like they do in Chicago - go across the street to a more lenient state and get a Saturday Night Special.
Federal gubmint not being trusted to operate the system is already a given and a constant, but we still let them run systems.
You have nothing. D'habitude..
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden- ... act-checksBiden told reporters on Memorial Day that the Second Amendment didn’t allow for the ownership of cannons when it was adopted as part of the Bill of Rights in 1791.
"The Second Amendment was never absolute," he said Monday, according to a White House transcript. "You couldn’t buy a cannon when the Second Amendment was passed. You couldn’t go out and purchase a lot of weapons."
Biden has repeated the claim at least five times during his presidency, despite it earning him "Four Pinocchios" from the Washington Post in 2021 and a "False" label from Politifact on three separate occasions dating back to May 2020.
Biden made the claim again just last week after the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School.
Apparently not a single person in the Biden admin knows that’s not true. Otherwise he wouldn’t keep making the same idiotic statement.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Nope. Forced buyback unconstitutional.houndawg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:57 amI'm OK with that, and a gubmint cash-for-clunkers style buy back - but if you get caught afterward you're going to priso.BDKJMU wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:41 am
Nope. You want to put guns with detachable mags (which the majority of guns) into the BATF tax stamp or FFL category. Violates ‘shall not be infringed’
-Places an undue burden, esp on the poor and people of color.
-Fed govt can’t be trusted to efficiently run such a sytem, which would expand the tax stamp and FFL #s a hundred fold. With the current ATF backlogs would run into the millions or tens of millions, and people would have to wait years for their guns.
-Tens of millions of the 80+ million law abiding gun owners would not comply. There would be millions of boating accidents..
And your phony bullshit about and undue burden on people of color and the poor (as if you actually care ) doesn't work either. Poor people and people of color already can't afford an AR and do like they do in Chicago - go across the street to a more lenient state and get a Saturday Night Special.
Federal gubmint not being trusted to operate the system is already a given and a constant, but we still let them run systems.
You have nothing. D'habitude..
Good luck with the ATF trying to enforce it by themselves..
You’re idea has less than zero chance of become law, but keep jacking off to it..
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
NY tried it. I think they had less then 100 turned in or something (they have had a number of buybacks but the one I am think of was a state one).
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
The author is going with what was defined as an assault weapon according to the 1994 "assault weapons" ban. Call them "weapon type X" if you want. The overwhelming majority of mass shooting deaths have been inflicted by weapons that were banned by the "assault weapons" ban. That's the point.BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 5:24 pmI stopped reading right there. Its clear the author doesn’t know wtf he is talking about. Assault rifles are by defintion select fire or full auto, and were banned (without an FFL or tax stamp) long before 1994. 1936 NFA heavily regulated fully automatic weapons, and 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act banned new ones unless you are dealer (FFL), and for those manufactured before 86’, for non FFL, became extremely expensive, in addition to the proctological you have to go through to get an ATF tax stamp get one.JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 3:22 pm Here is an abstract of an abstract of a study concluding mass shooting deaths were lower during the "assault weapons" ban:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30188421/
There is also this statement:
As for what "assault rifles" are, I think it's safe to say that they are whatever was banned by the ban.
So that's the deal. Mass shooting deaths are a small percentage of total homicides. But if you are looking at mass shooting deaths, "assault rifles" are obviously a factor.
I might have had a semi auto AK and an AR that were both lost in boating accidents, but I have never owned an ‘assault rifle’ or ‘assault weapon’. If its not select fire and/or full auto, its not an assault rifle/weapon.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Somewhere around a third of Americans actually own guns (see https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/per ... -guns.aspx). Of course, many who own them own more than one.
Regardless: Civilians with guns would be no match for the US military if the US military was "in" on suppressing the population. Civilians owning guns is not what is keeping us free.
What's keeping us free are systems and institutions Right now, the US military would NOT be "in" on suppressing the population. THAT is what protects our liberty.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
That's badass.Ibanez wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:49 amI'll have to search the dark abyss of my memory but the USMC has a vehicle mounted turret system which a user can lock onto a suspect, and the weapon will track that person and then fire. It also has an omnidirectional microphone(called a Boomerang), that when it picks up the sound of a gun shot or rocket, the turret automatically spins to that location and begins scanning. I saw a few videos from OEF back in 2008 or 2009 of it tracking a combatant on a motorbike and then suddenly...pink mistWinterborn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:37 am
I wonder if I could set up that system to track and take care of my racoon problem.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Nope. 100,000,000 gun owners vs a military of a couple hundred thousand? You’re wrong again.JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:52 pmSomewhere around a third of Americans actually own guns (see https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/per ... -guns.aspx). Of course, many who own them own more than one.
Regardless: Civilians with guns would be no match for the US military if the US military was "in" on suppressing the population. Civilians owning guns is not what is keeping us free.
What's keeping us free are systems and institutions Right now, the US military would NOT be "in" on suppressing the population. THAT is what protects our liberty.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
There are 80+ million gun owners in America. If 1/10 of them decided cause trouble, that is larger than the group that held the U.S. Military to a standstill in Afgan and Iraq. To say nothing of how many of those Military members are actually follow orders and fire on their fellow citizens. They are a bigger check than you are willing to give them credit for.JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:52 pmSomewhere around a third of Americans actually own guns (see https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/per ... -guns.aspx). Of course, many who own them own more than one.
Regardless: Civilians with guns would be no match for the US military if the US military was "in" on suppressing the population. Civilians owning guns is not what is keeping us free.
What's keeping us free are systems and institutions Right now, the US military would NOT be "in" on suppressing the population. THAT is what protects our liberty.
You really need to get out of the bayou more and keep an open mind.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
JSO really has zero clue about running non-traditional guerilla campaign is like and how few people it takes to screw things up. In his mind we are still in the early 1700's and we line up in nice pretty lines before somebody yells fire.AZGrizFan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:09 pmNope. 100,000,000 gun owners vs a military of a couple hundred thousand? You’re wrong again.JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:52 pm
Somewhere around a third of Americans actually own guns (see https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/per ... -guns.aspx). Of course, many who own them own more than one.
Regardless: Civilians with guns would be no match for the US military if the US military was "in" on suppressing the population. Civilians owning guns is not what is keeping us free.
What's keeping us free are systems and institutions Right now, the US military would NOT be "in" on suppressing the population. THAT is what protects our liberty.
If you know what you are doing (i.e basic civil engineer mindset), a dozen people could shut down Chicago (or any other city) and bring life there to a screeching halt. One only has to shut down the average city for 4 or 5 days before the food is gone and people are going to start to go hungry/riot. Good luck keeping that in check.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf
"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf
"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
better than a ban.BDKJMU wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:02 amNope. Forced buyback unconstitutional.houndawg wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:57 am
I'm OK with that, and a gubmint cash-for-clunkers style buy back - but if you get caught afterward you're going to priso.
And your phony bullshit about and undue burden on people of color and the poor (as if you actually care ) doesn't work either. Poor people and people of color already can't afford an AR and do like they do in Chicago - go across the street to a more lenient state and get a Saturday Night Special.
Federal gubmint not being trusted to operate the system is already a given and a constant, but we still let them run systems.
You have nothing. D'habitude..
Good luck with the ATF trying to enforce it by themselves..
You’re idea has less than zero chance of become law, but keep jacking off to it..
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
This is the big thing that a lot of people like JSO miss.Winterborn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:15 amTo say nothing of how many of those Military members are actually follow orders and fire on their fellow citizens. They are a bigger check than you are willing to give them credit for.JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:52 pm
Somewhere around a third of Americans actually own guns (see https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/per ... -guns.aspx). Of course, many who own them own more than one.
Regardless: Civilians with guns would be no match for the US military if the US military was "in" on suppressing the population. Civilians owning guns is not what is keeping us free.
What's keeping us free are systems and institutions Right now, the US military would NOT be "in" on suppressing the population. THAT is what protects our liberty.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
Interesting take on that…HI54UNI wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:28 amThis is the big thing that a lot of people like JSO miss.Winterborn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:15 am
To say nothing of how many of those Military members are actually follow orders and fire on their fellow citizens. They are a bigger check than you are willing to give them credit for.
Emily Green: There’s a common perception that our constitutional right to bear arms is there to make sure that regular citizens, like you and I, can defend ourselves from the government, should it become oppressive. But you argue that’s a misnomer. Can you explain what the Second Amendment is really all about?
Thom Hartmann: Let’s puncture that mythology. I have read through the vast majority of James Madison’s notes on the constitutional convention, on six or seven of the constitutional ratifying conventions, and the debates around the Bill of Rights. Literally nowhere, at any time, under any circumstances – even remotely – did any of the founders sit around and say, “Yeah, this government we’re creating, someday it may go just nuts, so we should tell the citizens that they can kill government employees if the government is oppressive.” They literally never thought that. That’s the most bat-guano crazy thing that you could assert. These people just put a country together and they were building a republic, one that they hoped would last centuries. The whole point of the division of government into three parts, in order to diminish the power of any one branch, was key to making sure that it worked. So that’s just a complete nonsense story.
Where that story seems to have come from is in the ’70s, the (American) Rifleman magazine – the NRA’s magazine – a teenager wrote an op-ed suggesting that was maybe what was on the mind of the founders. That idea got picked up by people in the John Birch Society and other hardcore right-wing groups, who were already, at that point, viewing the federal government as oppressive, and it grew into this thing. There is absolutely no basis to it.
The actual reason for the Second Amendment is twofold. The first was that there was an absolute and broad consensus among the founders and framers of the Constitution that a standing army during times of peace was a threat to liberty, was a danger to the governments. This grew out of the experience that these people had of watching country after country in Europe over the preceding 2,000 years have great military victories, and then when the army comes home when the war is over, the army takes over the country and boom – you’re suddenly living in a military dictatorship.
So they did two things: No. 1, in Article 1, Section 1 of the Constitution, they said that Congress can appropriate or spend money for anything – except the army. And if Congress spends money and appropriates for the army, it may not be for more than two years, ever. And that’s why every two years, since the founding of the republic until today, Congress has to pass a military appropriations bill.
No. 2 was the alternative to a standing army during times of peace was basically to have citizen militias, who could be called up by the state governor or by the federal government, if necessary, and turned into an army to fight a war. That was the real intention of the Second Amendment, which is why it starts out talking about well-regulated militias.
https://www.streetroots.org/news/2019/0 ... n-violence
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
So we need to get rid of the military and return to volunteer militias?kalm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:45 amInteresting take on that…
Emily Green: There’s a common perception that our constitutional right to bear arms is there to make sure that regular citizens, like you and I, can defend ourselves from the government, should it become oppressive. But you argue that’s a misnomer. Can you explain what the Second Amendment is really all about?
Thom Hartmann: Let’s puncture that mythology. I have read through the vast majority of James Madison’s notes on the constitutional convention, on six or seven of the constitutional ratifying conventions, and the debates around the Bill of Rights. Literally nowhere, at any time, under any circumstances – even remotely – did any of the founders sit around and say, “Yeah, this government we’re creating, someday it may go just nuts, so we should tell the citizens that they can kill government employees if the government is oppressive.” They literally never thought that. That’s the most bat-guano crazy thing that you could assert. These people just put a country together and they were building a republic, one that they hoped would last centuries. The whole point of the division of government into three parts, in order to diminish the power of any one branch, was key to making sure that it worked. So that’s just a complete nonsense story.
Where that story seems to have come from is in the ’70s, the (American) Rifleman magazine – the NRA’s magazine – a teenager wrote an op-ed suggesting that was maybe what was on the mind of the founders. That idea got picked up by people in the John Birch Society and other hardcore right-wing groups, who were already, at that point, viewing the federal government as oppressive, and it grew into this thing. There is absolutely no basis to it.
The actual reason for the Second Amendment is twofold. The first was that there was an absolute and broad consensus among the founders and framers of the Constitution that a standing army during times of peace was a threat to liberty, was a danger to the governments. This grew out of the experience that these people had of watching country after country in Europe over the preceding 2,000 years have great military victories, and then when the army comes home when the war is over, the army takes over the country and boom – you’re suddenly living in a military dictatorship.
So they did two things: No. 1, in Article 1, Section 1 of the Constitution, they said that Congress can appropriate or spend money for anything – except the army. And if Congress spends money and appropriates for the army, it may not be for more than two years, ever. And that’s why every two years, since the founding of the republic until today, Congress has to pass a military appropriations bill.
No. 2 was the alternative to a standing army during times of peace was basically to have citizen militias, who could be called up by the state governor or by the federal government, if necessary, and turned into an army to fight a war. That was the real intention of the Second Amendment, which is why it starts out talking about well-regulated militias.
https://www.streetroots.org/news/2019/0 ... n-violence
That's my interesting take on your interesting take ...
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
My interesting take on your interesting take on Kalm's interesting take is that the author confirmed what he already knew.UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:38 amSo we need to get rid of the military and return to volunteer militias?kalm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:45 am
Interesting take on that…
https://www.streetroots.org/news/2019/0 ... n-violence
That's my interesting take on your interesting take ...
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“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf
"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control
No…that ended with the war of 1812. A standing federal army is necessary. But not against its own people.UNI88 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:38 amSo we need to get rid of the military and return to volunteer militias?kalm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:45 am
Interesting take on that…
https://www.streetroots.org/news/2019/0 ... n-violence
That's my interesting take on your interesting take ...