Uvalde School Shooting

[Bobcat]

You would think. Hell, the first reports that came out said TWO people were killed. The next update said EIGHTEEN. Fog of war shit, I guess.

Up to 22 now - I think they should consider releasing pictures so that the public can see what an AR does to a 10 year old kid.

I'd like to release video of what 8 or 10 ARs do to a school shooter when he tries to bring one in a school.

[AZGrizFan]

Up to 22 now - I think they should consider releasing pictures so that the public can see what an AR does to a 10 year old kid.

Does it do something different than it does to older people?

[SDHornet]

Data showed I was at a minuscule risk of death or serious reaction to the China Virus. Why would I cower at home knowing the odds are in my favor?

I don’t know why you’d have to cower but social distancing saved lives. We could have saved 100’s of thousands more by acting more selflessly. So again, thank you for proving my point.

Virus gonna virus. Nothing will stop this thing from spreading. If you are at risk and/or scared of the China Virus, stay home and away from everyone else.

[kalm]

I don’t know why you’d have to cower but social distancing saved lives. We could have saved 100’s of thousands more by acting more selflessly. So again, thank you for proving my point.

Virus gonna virus. Nothing will stop this thing from spreading. If you are at risk and/or scared of the China Virus, stay home and away from everyone else.

Breathtakingly wrong and immoral.

[Winterborn]

Virus gonna virus. Nothing will stop this thing from spreading. If you are at risk and/or scared of the China Virus, stay home and away from everyone else.

Breathtakingly wrong and immoral.

Who are you to tell SC what his morals should be?

[kalm]

Breathtakingly wrong and immoral.

Who are you to tell SC what his morals should be?

I’m a goddamned American. That’s who!

[Winterborn]

Who are you to tell SC what his morals should be?

I’m a goddamned American. That’s who!

Well so is he! So you should do the American thing and settle it man to man. I suggest Nerf guns at 10 paces.

[houndawg]

Up to 22 now - I think they should consider releasing pictures so that the public can see what an AR does to a 10 year old kid.

Does it do something different than it does to older people?

Same thing but worse, kinetic energy transfer to a smaller mass. High school physics, bro

[GannonFan]

Does it do something different than it does to older people?

Same thing but worse, kinetic energy transfer to a smaller mass. High school physics, bro

Is it as simple as this? Not a gun person at all here, but it seems overly simplistic to just look at muzzle velocity. Doesn't the caliber and type of the bullet matter as well? And from what I've heard, aren't there a considerable number of variations of rifles that fit the description of an AR 15 so there are a wide range of size and types of bullets that platform can fire depending on the setup? Those types of guns apparently only account for 4% of all gun deaths in the US. Obviously handguns are used at a significantly higher rate, so that accounts for some of that, but a bullet staying in the body creates damage too, no?

[∞∞∞]

Same thing but worse, kinetic energy transfer to a smaller mass. High school physics, bro

Is it as simple as this? Not a gun person at all here, but it seems overly simplistic to just look at muzzle velocity. Doesn't the caliber and type of the bullet matter as well? And from what I've heard, aren't there a considerable number of variations of rifles that fit the description of an AR 15 so there are a wide range of size and types of bullets that platform can fire depending on the setup? Those types of guns apparently only account for 4% of all gun deaths in the US. Obviously handguns are used at a significantly higher rate, so that accounts for some of that, but a bullet staying in the body creates damage too, no?

From a physiological standpoint, guns do more damage to children. All other things equal:

-Children require more oxygen per pound than adults, so blood loss affects children more. They also bleed out quicker.
-They have thinner skin, less bone density, and less body fat. Bullets end up doing more damage to muscles, veins, organs, etc.
-Body size proportions are completely different than adults. Vitals are more tightly packed and bullets have a higher chance hitting something.

[GannonFan]

Is it as simple as this? Not a gun person at all here, but it seems overly simplistic to just look at muzzle velocity. Doesn't the caliber and type of the bullet matter as well? And from what I've heard, aren't there a considerable number of variations of rifles that fit the description of an AR 15 so there are a wide range of size and types of bullets that platform can fire depending on the setup? Those types of guns apparently only account for 4% of all gun deaths in the US. Obviously handguns are used at a significantly higher rate, so that accounts for some of that, but a bullet staying in the body creates damage too, no?

From a physiological standpoint, guns do more damage to children. All other things equal:

-Children require more oxygen per pound than adults, so blood loss affects children more. They also bleed out quicker.
-They have thinner skin, less bone density, and less body fat. Bullets end up doing more damage to muscles, veins, organs, etc.
-Body size proportions are completely different than adults. Vitals are more tightly packed and bullets have a higher chance hitting something.

Certainly understood. I don't think that was in disagreement at all.

My question stemmed from the talk of the damage an AR-15 causes versus a handgun. It seemed to be there was more detail needed for that discussion.

[houndawg]

Same thing but worse, kinetic energy transfer to a smaller mass. High school physics, bro

Is it as simple as this? Not a gun person at all here, but it seems overly simplistic to just look at muzzle velocity. Doesn't the caliber and type of the bullet matter as well? And from what I've heard, aren't there a considerable number of variations of rifles that fit the description of an AR 15 so there are a wide range of size and types of bullets that platform can fire depending on the setup? Those types of guns apparently only account for 4% of all gun deaths in the US. Obviously handguns are used at a significantly higher rate, so that accounts for some of that, but a bullet staying in the body creates damage too, no?

Well, Gabi Giffords got shot in the head with a 9mm and survived..

and you're right that the mass and type of the bullet matter too, the kinetic energy of the bullet is equivalent to the mass of the bullet multiplied by the square of the velocity so adding a little velocity adds a lot of energy - they would have needed a squeege to collect her head if she'd been shot with an AR - the small mass of the 5.56 means its easily deflected and the high velocity ensures that if it is deflected there is still plenty of energy to drive it along its new vector and make a real mess - on youtube there is a trauma surgeon who gives a talk on the differences that he's seen between handgun wounds and wounds from an AR15.

[Skjellyfetti]

Can we at least get rid of qualified immunity?

[houndawg]

From a physiological standpoint, guns do more damage to children. All other things equal:

-Children require more oxygen per pound than adults, so blood loss affects children more. They also bleed out quicker.
-They have thinner skin, less bone density, and less body fat. Bullets end up doing more damage to muscles, veins, organs, etc.
-Body size proportions are completely different than adults. Vitals are more tightly packed and bullets have a higher chance hitting something.

Certainly understood. I don't think that was in disagreement at all.

My question stemmed from the talk of the damage an AR-15 causes versus a handgun. It seemed to be there was more detail needed for that discussion.

The lone pediatrician in Uvalde used the word "beheaded" while describing the scene and said they needed DNA sample to identify some of the victims.

[BDKJMU]

From a physiological standpoint, guns do more damage to children. All other things equal:

-Children require more oxygen per pound than adults, so blood loss affects children more. They also bleed out quicker.
-They have thinner skin, less bone density, and less body fat. Bullets end up doing more damage to muscles, veins, organs, etc.
-Body size proportions are completely different than adults. Vitals are more tightly packed and bullets have a higher chance hitting something.

Certainly understood. I don't think that was in disagreement at all.

My question stemmed from the talk of the damage an AR-15 causes versus a handgun. It seemed to be there was more detail needed for that discussion.

I’m not a huge gun or a ballistics guy, but this is as best as I understand it with a JSOesque response.

‘AR-15 Versus a handgun’. A handgun is a huge variable because there are:
-numerous different handgun calibers.
-different grain bullets within each caliber bullet (which will effect velocity).
-different types of bullets within each caliber (ex FMJ (full metal jacket)) made to go through whatever it strikes vs JHP (jacketed hollow point) made to mushroom inside whatever it strikes, which could be more damaging.
-different barrel lengths for different models of handguns (and within the aame model), from around 2 1/2 inches to 10 or more inches, which also effect velocity and accuracy. The longer the barrel generally the high the velocity and accuracy. Course the longer the barrel, the harder to comceal, and the heavier, which can made it harder to hold steady to aim.

You have the same thing for long guns. Generally rifle rounds are more powerful than handgun rounds because of the longer barrels (16 inches and longer) = higher velocity.

So an AR-15, shooting a .223/5.56 round (or shot out of any rifle), will be a lot more powerful, and generall due more damage than MOST handgun rounds. I’m not sure how it would compare at close range to one of these ‘handheld howitzers’, a giant revolver shooting a .44 Magum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .480 Ruger, .500 S&W, all HUGE handgun rounds..

As far as the AR-15, with its .223/5.56 round, compared to other rifle calibers, its not that powerful. Its generally not used against big game because its not as effective at quickly and humanely taking deer, hogs, bear, etc down). As can see on the below chart 5 from the left:

If I was worried about the zombie apocalypse, but wanted an AR platform, I’d get an AR-10, a popular hog hunting gun. Similar to the AR-15, but chambered in more powerful calibers, most commonly the .308.

[Col Hogan]

Here’s how it’s done…

The Alabama Law Enforcement Agency has taken over an investigation into the fatal police shooting Thursday morning of a man outside Walnut Park Elementary School in Gadsden.

Etowah County Coroner London Pearce identified the deceased as Robert Tyler White, 32. He said the man lived in the Gadsden area; however, a news release Thursday afternoon from ALEA listed him as being from Bunnlevel, North Carolina.

Officials say the man tried to get into the school through several doors, but all were locked. His motives for trying to get into the school were not known, and school and law enforcement officials alike were praising the reaction to the incident: The would-be intruder never made it into the school, and the only substantial harm was suffered by him.

https://www.gadsdentimes.com/story/news ... 567393001/

[Col Hogan]

The Uvalde ISD Police Chief finally tells his side of the story…the main points were that he left his radios behind, and despite the 4-stars on his collar, he didn’t think he was in charge at the scene…

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/10 ... do-uvalde/

[houndawg]

Certainly understood. I don't think that was in disagreement at all.

My question stemmed from the talk of the damage an AR-15 causes versus a handgun. It seemed to be there was more detail needed for that discussion.

I’m not a huge gun or a ballistics guy, but this is as best as I understand it with a JSOesque response.

‘AR-15 Versus a handgun’. A handgun is a huge variable because there are:
-numerous different handgun calibers.
-different grain bullets within each caliber bullet (which will effect velocity).
-different types of bullets within each caliber (ex FMJ (full metal jacket)) made to go through whatever it strikes vs JHP (jacketed hollow point) made to mushroom inside whatever it strikes, which could be more damaging.
-different barrel lengths for different models of handguns (and within the aame model), from around 2 1/2 inches to 10 or more inches, which also effect velocity and accuracy. The longer the barrel generally the high the velocity and accuracy. Course the longer the barrel, the harder to comceal, and the heavier, which can made it harder to hold steady to aim.

You have the same thing for long guns. Generally rifle rounds are more powerful than handgun rounds because of the longer barrels (16 inches and longer) = higher velocity.

So an AR-15, shooting a .223/5.56 round (or shot out of any rifle), will be a lot more powerful, and generall due more damage than MOST handgun rounds. I’m not sure how it would compare at close range to one of these ‘handheld howitzers’, a giant revolver shooting a .44 Magum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .480 Ruger, .500 S&W, all HUGE handgun rounds..

As far as the AR-15, with its .223/5.56 round, compared to other rifle calibers, its not that powerful. Its generally not used against big game because its not as effective at quickly and humanely taking deer, hogs, bear, 10 year old school children, etc down). As can see on the below chart 5 from the left:

If I was worried about the zombie apocalypse, but wanted an AR platform, I’d get an AR-10, a popular hog hunting gun. Similar to the AR-15, but chambered in more powerful calibers, most commonly the .308.

The usual deflection by irrelevant queefing you specialize at.

Start another thread if you want to change the subject, Queefmeister.

[houndawg]

The Uvalde ISD Police Chief finally tells his side of the story…the main points were that he left his radios behind, and despite the 4-stars on his collar, he didn’t think he was in charge at the scene…

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/10 ... do-uvalde/

Every cop I see has a radio with the mic located right at the collar.

Fucking poseur - I can't believe he hasn't already moved

[SeattleGriz]

It just keeps getting worse.

On Monday, KVUE and its news partners at the Austin American-Statesman exclusively obtained surveillance footage from inside Robb Elementary School on the day of the May 24 shooting.

The footage shows that multiple officers were inside the building with rifles and at least one ballistic shield, 19 minutes after the gunman arrived. They didn't enter the classroom the shooter was inside for nearly another hour.

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/speci ... cbd41382f4

[BDKJMU]

It just keeps getting worse.

On Monday, KVUE and its news partners at the Austin American-Statesman exclusively obtained surveillance footage from inside Robb Elementary School on the day of the May 24 shooting.

The footage shows that multiple officers were inside the building with rifles and at least one ballistic shield, 19 minutes after the gunman arrived. They didn't enter the classroom the shooter was inside for nearly another hour.

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/speci ... cbd41382f4

And worse. Turns out the door wasn’t even locked.

Listen to the DPS head testify (1:39 video in below article). Absolutely damning..
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/21 ... -shooting/

[BDKJMU]

Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Director Steven McCraw ripped into the Uvalde school police chief's handling of last month's shooting at Robb Elementary School and said that some officers wanted to approach the gunman earlier, including a school district police officer whose wife was killed in the massacre.

That officer, Ruben Ruiz, received a call from his wife, Eva Mireles, who told him that she had been shot.

"He tried to move forward into the hallway," McCraw said Tuesday at a Senate hearing. "He was detained and they took his gun away from him and escorted him off the scene."

Mireles later died in an ambulance on the way to a hospital.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-uvalde ... d-away-dps

[BDKJMU]

Uvalde school police chief placed on administrative leave today. I think its beyond obvious he should be fired.

[93henfan]

I’m not a huge gun or a ballistics guy, but this is as best as I understand it with a JSOesque response...

To give a non-JSOesque response...

I am an AR/AK guy all day, but make no mistake: the .223/5.56 round is far, far more devastating to a human body than a 9mm parabellum or .45acp pistol round, even if they're fired from a carbine chambered for those pistol-designed rounds. The expansion cavity in ballistic gel from .223 is massive and the round fragments and tumbles by design, creating almost always fatal impacts to the torso. A handgun round, if it doesn't pierce a vital organ, leaves a significant chance of recovery if blood loss is stopped soon enough. Level 1 trauma centers are experts in handgun round treatment. Hollow point handgun rounds are worse, due to their expansion. FMJ usually stays intact and even has a good chance of passing through the body completely. But again, the .223 leaves a massive channel and fragments, while the handgun round will leave a more focused path. The .223 round is also traveling at least twice as fast (closer to three times most likely).

[93henfan]

Some more non-JSOesque pointers:

In your house: handgun (I like 9mm) with a light and/or 12 gauge pump loaded with at least five rounds 00 shot and a light
In you car/on your person: handgun with a light (mine also has green laser integrated)
50-300 yards: AR/AK; caveat: if you live in an area with big game, an elephant/bear piece on your hip
300+ yards: precision rifle chambered in a sniper caliber (mine is 6.5 creedmoor, but there are many great options like .300winmag, .338 lapua mag, etc)
Wolverines: .50 bmg (I don't own one, because I don't like the idea of burning $3 on each trigger pull)

Also, spending more on optics than the gun is never a bad idea. Know them, dial them in, and stay sharp with them periodically. Go for quality glass that doesn't require batteries.