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kalm wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 3:00 pm

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 2:54 pm

Who gets to determine psychological abuse?

A doctor.

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 2:41 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 10:48 am

What should a school worker do when an apparent LGBT+ student needs support and isn't getting it at home?

I ask because I'm pretty sure those students are at significantly greater risk of committing suicide so I don't think saying it's the parent's domain and none of the school worker's business is the right answer.

Anecdotal story:
My HS got a bunch of Apple II computers (about same time as the Commodore 64) my senior year and created a programming class. The class was almost exclusively taken by students who were likely going to college except for one kid. He was a bit of a loner but he was an absolutely brilliant programmer. I took a number of computer science classes in college and worked in and around IT for 12 years and he was the best I ever saw. While I was away at college I heard that he had committed suicide. It turns out that he was gay, his home life was sh!t and his parents couldn't handle who he was. The world lost a brilliant programmer who might have created something life-changing for society because of intolerance and fear of people who are different.

I don't want teachers encouraging students to be LGBT+ but they should be able to provide support for those that have self-identified without being labeled groomers. Talking to students about how people are different isn't a bad thing either. Helping to develop tolerance and understanding is good.

Tough situation. Parents have the ultimate say as it's their responsibility. Some parents suck, and will suck at dealing with issues like this, but allowing the state to interject itself (so long as no physical harm is present) isn't the right move imo.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 3:20 pm

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 2:41 pm

Tough situation. Parents have the ultimate say as it's their responsibility. Some parents suck, and will suck at dealing with issues like this, but allowing the state to interject itself (so long as no physical harm is present) isn't the right move imo.

Point being that it isn't a black and white distinction. Not all school workers who want to talk about LGBT+ are groomers and talking about it isn't absolutely a bad thing. There will be students who have 2 moms or 2 dads or similar. There will be students, especially older ones, who are attracted to the same gender or don't feel comfortable with the body/gender of their birth. Showing them that there have been others with similar situations/conflicts will help them feel accepted and hopefully find their own way. Demonstrating compassion and acceptance is IMO the Christian thing to do. Grooming kids is wrong but so is being closed-minded and hateful.

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 3:29 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 3:20 pm
Point being that it isn't a black and white distinction. Not all school workers who want to talk about LGBT+ are groomers and talking about it isn't absolutely a bad thing. There will be students who have 2 moms or 2 dads or similar. There will be students, especially older ones, who are attracted to the same gender or don't feel comfortable with the body/gender of their birth. Showing them that there have been others with similar situations/conflicts will help them feel accepted and hopefully find their own way. Demonstrating compassion and acceptance is IMO the Christian thing to do. Grooming kids is wrong but so is being closed-minded and hateful.

Depends on the situation, but anyone wanting to have/supporting sexual conversations with young kids is a groomer. That part certainly is black and white.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 4:19 pm

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 3:29 pm

Depends on the situation, but anyone wanting to have/supporting sexual conversations with young kids is a groomer. That part certainly is black and white.

I don't think it's that black and white. Are Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union (Zaya, 13, came out as transgender last year) groomers? I would argue that they're loving and supporting parents. Unfortunately, many confused kids don't have that kind of support at home.

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 5:05 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 4:19 pm I don't think it's that black and white. Are Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union (Zaya, 13, came out as transgender last year) groomers? I would argue that they're loving and supporting parents. Unfortunately, many confused kids don't have that kind of support at home.

13 is a lot different than a 5-8 year old that the Florida bill targeted.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:16 pm

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 5:05 pm

13 is a lot different than a 5-8 year old that the Florida bill targeted.

Yes, it is. 5-8 year olds are way too young to being have serious discussions about sexuality. They aren't however necessarily being "groomed" if their library includes books where a family has 2 dads or 2 moms or if a transvestite reads them a library book.

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:48 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:16 pm Yes, it is. 5-8 year olds are way too young to being have serious discussions about sexuality. They aren't however necessarily being "groomed" if their library includes books where a family has 2 dads or 2 moms or if a transvestite reads them a library book.

Schools do not need to be bringing transvestites in to read to 5-8 year olds just because they are trans. They also do not need teachers pushing books about trans, sex, or anything else to kids that are 5-8 years old.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:59 pm

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:48 pm

Schools do not need to be bringing transvestites in to read to 5-8 year olds just because they are trans. They also do not need teachers pushing books about trans, sex, or anything else to kids that are 5-8 years old.

Should a transvestite not be allowed to read to 5-8 year olds? Is it automatically cause for alarm and claims of grooming?

Should books that include families with 2 dads or 2 moms be banned from elementary school libraries or classrooms?

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:59 pm

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:48 pm

Schools do not need to be bringing transvestites in to read to 5-8 year olds just because they are trans. They also do not need teachers pushing books about trans, sex, or anything else to kids that are 5-8 years old.

Should a transvestite not be allowed to read to 5-8 year olds? Is it automatically cause for alarm and claims of grooming?

Should books that include families with 2 dads or 2 moms be banned from elementary school libraries or classrooms?

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:48 pm

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:16 pm

Yes, it is. 5-8 year olds are way too young to being have serious discussions about sexuality. They aren't however necessarily being "groomed" if their library includes books where a family has 2 dads or 2 moms or if a transvestite reads them a library book.

Schools do not need to be bringing transvestites in to read to 5-8 year olds just because they are trans. They also do not need teachers pushing books about trans, sex, or anything else to kids that are 5-8 years old.

HI54UNI wrote:

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:59 pm Should a transvestite not be allowed to read to 5-8 year olds? Is it automatically cause for alarm and claims of grooming?

Should books that include families with 2 dads or 2 moms be banned from elementary school libraries or classrooms?

Re-read what I said on the trans reading issue.

And the 2nd one depends on what is in it and how it is presented. Too many variables for a blanket statement.

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:16 pm

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 5:05 pm

13 is a lot different than a 5-8 year old that the Florida bill targeted.

Yes, it is. 5-8 year olds are way too young to being have serious discussions about sexuality. They aren't however necessarily being "groomed" if their library includes books where a family has 2 dads or 2 moms or if a transvestite reads them a library book.

houndawg wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 5:23 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:16 pm

Yes, it is. 5-8 year olds are way too young to being have serious discussions about sexuality. They aren't however necessarily being "groomed" if their library includes books where a family has 2 dads or 2 moms or if a transvestite reads them a library book.

What about the subliminal grooming of math books exposing kids to "=" signs? De Santis seems to be the only one that has spotted it so far.

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 9:26 pm

HI54UNI wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:48 pm

Schools do not need to be bringing transvestites in to read to 5-8 year olds just because they are trans. They also do not need teachers pushing books about trans, sex, or anything else to kids that are 5-8 years old.

Bingo. This isn't a controversial thing, you are either pro-groomer or not. It's black and white. Now the age at which these conversations may be debatable, but no doubt elementary school aged kids is way to young. Anyone pushing/supporting sexual discussions with kids of this age are groomers. Not hard to understand.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:07 am

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 9:26 pm

Bingo. This isn't a controversial thing, you are either pro-groomer or not. It's black and white. Now the age at which these conversations may be debatable, but no doubt elementary school aged kids is way to young. Anyone pushing/supporting sexual discussions with kids of this age are groomers. Not hard to understand.

Elementary school goes to 5th or 6th grade depending on the school. That means 12 and 13 year olds. Are you saying that 12 and 13 is too young to be having discussions about sexual education?

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:25 am

GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:07 am

Elementary school goes to 5th or 6th grade depending on the school. That means 12 and 13 year olds. Are you saying that 12 and 13 is too young to be having discussions about sexual education?

No, that mostly means 10-12 yr olds, excluding kids who flunked a grade or started a year late. Also I believe some states elementary is only through 4th grade

Pre K :5-6 yrs old
1St: 6-7
2nd: 7-8
3rd: 8-9
4th: 9-10
5th: 10-11
6th: 11-12
7th: 12-13
8th: 13-14
9th: 14-15
10th: 15-16
11th: 16-17
12th: 17–18 yrs old

Elementary schools have no business having discussions about sex ed.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 9:23 am

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:25 am
No, that mostly means 10-12 yr olds, excluding kids who flunked a grade or started a year late. Also I believe some states elementary is only through 4th grade

Pre K :5-6 yrs old
1St: 6-7
2nd: 7-8
3rd: 8-9
4th: 9-10
5th: 10-11
6th: 11-12
7th: 12-13
8th: 13-14
9th: 14-15
10th: 15-16
11th: 16-17
12th: 17–18 yrs old

Elementary schools have no business having discussions about sex ed.

Well, one guy is saying 5-8 years old is too young, and now you're saying 10-12 years old is too young. Puberty happens between ages 10-14 typically for girls and 12-16 for boys. I agree with the 5-8 years old, but if you're saying 12 years old are too young for sex ed then I think you're be overly obtuse.

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:59 pm

GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 9:23 am

Well, one guy is saying 5-8 years old is too young, and now you're saying 10-12 years old is too young. Puberty happens between ages 10-14 typically for girls and 12-16 for boys. I agree with the 5-8 years old, but if you're saying 12 years old are too young for sex ed then I think you're be overly obtuse.

How many of us on here 13 years of secondary school back in K through 12th grade (I’m assuming for almost everyone here was between the 1970s and and 2000s) were introduced to the trans ideology. I wasn’t (mix of public and private)

houndawg wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 5:23 am

UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 6:16 pm

Yes, it is. 5-8 year olds are way too young to being have serious discussions about sexuality. They aren't however necessarily being "groomed" if their library includes books where a family has 2 dads or 2 moms or if a transvestite reads them a library book.

What about the subliminal grooming of math books exposing kids to "=" signs? De Santis seems to be the only one that has spotted it so far.

GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 7:07 am

SDHornet wrote: ↑Mon May 02, 2022 9:26 pm

Bingo. This isn't a controversial thing, you are either pro-groomer or not. It's black and white. Now the age at which these conversations may be debatable, but no doubt elementary school aged kids is way to young. Anyone pushing/supporting sexual discussions with kids of this age are groomers. Not hard to understand.

Elementary school goes to 5th or 6th grade depending on the school. That means 12 and 13 year olds. Are you saying that 12 and 13 is too young to be having discussions about sexual education?

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:59 pm

GannonFan wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 9:23 am

Well, one guy is saying 5-8 years old is too young, and now you're saying 10-12 years old is too young. Puberty happens between ages 10-14 typically for girls and 12-16 for boys. I agree with the 5-8 years old, but if you're saying 12 years old are too young for sex ed then I think you're be overly obtuse.

How many of us on here 13 years of secondary school back in K through 12th grade (I’m assuming for almost everyone here was between the 1970s and and 2000s) were introduced to the trans ideology. I wasn’t (mix of public and private)

kalm wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 6:23 pm

BDKJMU wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 4:59 pm
How many of us on here 13 years of secondary school back in K through 12th grade (I’m assuming for almost everyone here was between the 1970s and and 2000s) were introduced to the trans ideology. I wasn’t (mix of public and private)

Why do you think that is?

Ibanez wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 5:37 am

kalm wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 6:23 pm

Why do you think that is?

It's topics like this that really screw with everyone's idea that i'm a librul or something - Schools have zero business in telling anyone child, K-6, about sex, gender, queerness, etc...If my 7 year old wants to know why 2 women are kissing she can ask me (she's "understands" gay people. I have a lesbian aunt so homosexuality isn't exactly foreign to her). The avg age of puberty aligns with grades 6-8 and that is the acceptable time, as it has been for generations, to teach sexual education. That's it.

Sexual Education is about biology, how babies are made and how to have safe sex (though abstinence should also be equally taught). Gender fluidity, trans, etc... - if to be taught at all should be taught that people that feel that way should talk to a parent, friend or counselor but regardless are humans and are deserving of respect.

kalm wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 6:44 am

Ibanez wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 5:37 am
It's topics like this that really screw with everyone's idea that i'm a librul or something - Schools have zero business in telling anyone child, K-6, about sex, gender, queerness, etc...If my 7 year old wants to know why 2 women are kissing she can ask me (she's "understands" gay people. I have a lesbian aunt so homosexuality isn't exactly foreign to her). The avg age of puberty aligns with grades 6-8 and that is the acceptable time, as it has been for generations, to teach sexual education. That's it.

Sexual Education is about biology, how babies are made and how to have safe sex (though abstinence should also be equally taught). Gender fluidity, trans, etc... - if to be taught at all should be taught that people that feel that way should talk to a parent, friend or counselor but regardless are humans and are deserving of respect.

1). Not all parents are like you.

2). Not everyone has a lesbian aunt.

3). Part of the problem is semantic. Perhaps gender identity ed and biological sex ed are being conflated? What’s actually being taught and at what age, and how? And I’m not talking about random accusatory tweets. There’s a big difference between pornhub and teaching that people and relationships can be different. I think this is what UNI88 is getting at in part.