2022 Elections Thread

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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:54 am
Winterborn wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:45 am

Pelosi is no idiot and built up her power carefully to the point she controlled the purse strings in her caucus. This led her to wield significant behind the scenes power of those that would dissent. McCarthy has no such background and thought it would be handed to him.

I consider half of either party to be irrational (can throw in there blatantly corrupt as well) and should go the way of the dodo bird.
A little bit of a tangent from your post, but I think it speaks to the irrational.

You ever read any hot button issues on both sides of the media? The comments are exactly the same. Dems and Reps both say their reps are weak, spineless and America as we know it is being ruined. Both sides feel they are constantly on the losing end.

So how is it that both sides feel the same way? My thought is simply the basic one that our elected officials aren't representing anyone other than their donor class, which are two sides of the same coin, so it never feels like "your guy" is fighting for your side.

Congress finally gets a couple of people elected who at the least don't toe the verbal narrative and they come across as nuts, although they represent the comment section statements.
I do not think it is a tangent at all, as both topics are different parts of the same tree. People, like water, seek the lowest level possible.

This condition is something the Founding Fathers had first hand knowledge of how people in power functioned, both through their direct experience in Britain and along with ties to France. The Colonies were very tied into mercantilism and as a result had a wide range of experiences and exposure to schools of thought on the continent. They used this knowledge/experience to build/draft the foundation of the U.S. Government.

People's action when they are in power (political, business, HOA, etc.) is not a function of their duties, but their mindset/beliefs/feelings/character. I am a firm believer (based on my experiences in the U.S. Government, Britain and EU's Parliament, etc.) that while our system of government is not perfect, it is still the best in the world. IMHO, the type of people in the system determine more of what happens than the system itself. Which is why an engaged population is so important.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:05 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:54 am

A little bit of a tangent from your post, but I think it speaks to the irrational.

You ever read any hot button issues on both sides of the media? The comments are exactly the same. Dems and Reps both say their reps are weak, spineless and America as we know it is being ruined. Both sides feel they are constantly on the losing end.

So how is it that both sides feel the same way? My thought is simply the basic one that our elected officials aren't representing anyone other than their donor class, which are two sides of the same coin, so it never feels like "your guy" is fighting for your side.

Congress finally gets a couple of people elected who at the least don't toe the verbal narrative and they come across as nuts, although they represent the comment section statements.
This.

And WB’s only half of each party is irrational is being generous.

Our system is built on legalized corruption. Plain and simple.
Well I can only speak from experience and I haven't worked with more than half of our Government (State and Federal). ;)
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

GannonFan wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:27 am
kalm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:05 am

This.

And WB’s only half of each party is irrational is being generous.

Our system is built on legalized corruption. Plain and simple.
Don't forget the incompetence, we have that in spades as well.
Shows just how educated and engaged our voting population really is.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:52 am
GannonFan wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:27 am

Don't forget the incompetence, we have that in spades as well.
Shows just how educated and engaged our voting population really is.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Pwns »

Get all the concessions you can from the establishment goons.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:05 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:54 am
A little bit of a tangent from your post, but I think it speaks to the irrational.

You ever read any hot button issues on both sides of the media? The comments are exactly the same. Dems and Reps both say their reps are weak, spineless and America as we know it is being ruined. Both sides feel they are constantly on the losing end.

So how is it that both sides feel the same way? My thought is simply the basic one that our elected officials aren't representing anyone other than their donor class, which are two sides of the same coin, so it never feels like "your guy" is fighting for your side.

Congress finally gets a couple of people elected who at the least don't toe the verbal narrative and they come across as nuts, although they represent the comment section statements.
This.

And WB’s only half of each party is irrational is being generous.

Our system is built on legalized corruption. Plain and simple.
This? :suspicious:

AOChe wanting socialism without providing any reason why it will work this time is rational? Omar paying her political consultant/boyfriend/husband millions in fees isn't a form of corruption? They are representative of the people in the Democratic Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative".

For SG, MTG and her Jewish space lasers was rational? All the Qanon stuff is rational? All the stuff with Boebert, Gaetz, Gosar, etc. is rational? They are representative of the people in the Republican Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative". Of course, Cheney and Kinzinger didn't toe the line either so they should be defined as rational too. I also have to question your comment that the people who don't toe the verbal narrative "represent the comment section statements." They might represent the comment section statements in the places you're reading them but I don't think they are representative of the majority of Americans. Firebrand Republican candidates did poorly on election night because they were rejected by the silent majority in the middle despite the fervent support of trump and his MAGAts.

The establishment is corrupt but they have been extremely competent when it comes to advancing their own interests. Unfortunately, the rabblerousers that are fighting the establishment aren't doing it for the good of America and the American people, they're doing it because they want a piece of the pie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Pwns »

What's funny is that Democrats are sitting there going "Tee hee hee" and repeatedly forcing votes they know won't be resolved because they actually believe people admire a party where everyone marches in lockstep with whatever the top ranking members of congress in the party want.

How often do the "Strawn wimmin of cullah™" of the squad tell Nancy Pelosi to shove it?
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

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McCarthy is a career politician- I think a valid arguement can be made that Speaker shouldn’t go to a career politician.

Of course OTOH an arguement can be made that you have to have Speaker go to a career politician, as you can’t have someone in that position who only has spent a couple of terms in the House, and that it should go to one of the most experienced. But of the 222 or however many conks in the House, Mcarthy, who’s 16 years in the House is probably much longer than the median, probably isn’t even in the top 2-3 doz conks in terms of longevity. Last Congress had 26 donks and 7 conks woth more than 40 years.
https://history.house.gov/Institution/S ... /40-Years/
So why McCarthy over the likey several doz conks with more seniority than him?
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:45 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 3:31 pm

I think you and I might define rational differently. I don't have to agree with someone to consider them rational. Pelosi was an effective speaker who for the most part kept her caucus together. McCarthy is struggling to keep his caucus together and the Republican House caucus looks like a bunch of boobs.

I do not consider the groomer Jim Jordan or other MAGAt members of the House to be rational. They, like their emotional leader, are a bunch of petulant children who throw temper tantrums if they don't get their way. They are a minority of the Republican caucus but believe they should dictate policy and focus.
Pelosi is no idiot and built up her power carefully to the point she controlled the purse strings in her caucus. This led her to wield significant behind the scenes power of those that would dissent. McCarthy has no such background and thought it would be handed to him.

I consider half of either party to be irrational (can throw in there blatantly corrupt as well) and should go the way of the dodo bird.
Certainly WAS no idiot. And probably isn’t now. But she is rapidly going downhill. Just look at the recent gaffes. Not Biden level, but up there, almost every time she steps in front of a camera (Happy Schwanza). She’ll be 83 in March, and should have retired years ago.

We need
1. Term limits (say no more than 8-12 years in the House, and 2 terms/12 years in the Senate.
2. A. mandatory retirement age (say no one sworn in after reaching 75 or 80).
Unfortunately neither are likely to happen, at least in our lifetimes.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:56 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:05 am

This.

And WB’s only half of each party is irrational is being generous.

Our system is built on legalized corruption. Plain and simple.
This? :suspicious:

AOChe wanting socialism without providing any reason why it will work this time is rational? Omar paying her political consultant/boyfriend/husband millions in fees isn't a form of corruption? They are representative of the people in the Democratic Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative".

For SG, MTG and her Jewish space lasers was rational? All the Qanon stuff is rational? All the stuff with Boebert, Gaetz, Gosar, etc. is rational? They are representative of the people in the Republican Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative". Of course, Cheney and Kinzinger didn't toe the line either so they should be defined as rational too. I also have to question your comment that the people who don't toe the verbal narrative "represent the comment section statements." They might represent the comment section statements in the places you're reading them but I don't think they are representative of the majority of Americans. Firebrand Republican candidates did poorly on election night because they were rejected by the silent majority in the middle despite the fervent support of trump and his MAGAts.

The establishment is corrupt but they have been extremely competent when it comes to advancing their own interests. Unfortunately, the rabblerousers that are fighting the establishment aren't doing it for the good of America and the American people, they're doing it because they want a piece of the pie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.
Based on a few of the local ones that I have met (so called "rabblerousers fighting the establishment") that isn't always the case. The couple that I know best truly see the corruption that is there on both sides of the isle and want to change it for the better. But that is on the local level, and that number gets slimmer the higher one goes up the political ladder. On the national level, based on what I know, and until shown more evidence to the contrary, I would agree with your statement. Just wanted to bring up that not all rabblerousers are created equal. :twocents:

Will those local people ever move up and try to enact the same type of change they are doing on the local level? Probably not, as they know what one has to give up to do that and the compromises that end up being made.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

BDKJMU wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:30 pm
Winterborn wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:45 am

Pelosi is no idiot and built up her power carefully to the point she controlled the purse strings in her caucus. This led her to wield significant behind the scenes power of those that would dissent. McCarthy has no such background and thought it would be handed to him.

I consider half of either party to be irrational (can throw in there blatantly corrupt as well) and should go the way of the dodo bird.
Certainly WAS no idiot. And probably isn’t now. But she is rapidly going downhill. Just look at the recent gaffes. Not Biden level, but up there, almost every time she steps in front of a camera (Happy Schwanza). She’ll be 83 in March, and should have retired years ago.

We need
1. Term limits (say no more than 8-12 years in the House, and 2 terms/12 years in the Senate.
2. A. mandatory retirement age (say no one sworn in after reaching 75 or 80).
Unfortunately neither are likely to happen, at least in our lifetimes.
No doubt she is past her expiration date. But she set the foundation for her position very well and until she gives it up, the Dems know what side of the bread is buttered.

Now when she is gone, my bet is that the same situation we see with the R's will happen with them.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Meanwhile the donks keep voting for their own election denier for Speaker.

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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

Pwns wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:08 pm What's funny is that Democrats are sitting there going "Tee hee hee" and repeatedly forcing votes they know won't be resolved because they actually believe people admire a party where everyone marches in lockstep with whatever the top ranking members of congress in the party want.

How often do the "Strawn wimmin of cullah™" of the squad tell Nancy Pelosi to shove it?
It fits their ideology to a T. No room for out of the box thinkers and if you do believe different, off to the gulag you go. They have perfected the lemming approach and while I shake my head at the R's caucus, I would rather have that then the D's approach.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Just had 6th vote, no Speaker. What’s the over/under on # of votes to come up with a new Speaker?
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:37 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:56 pm
This? :suspicious:

AOChe wanting socialism without providing any reason why it will work this time is rational? Omar paying her political consultant/boyfriend/husband millions in fees isn't a form of corruption? They are representative of the people in the Democratic Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative".

For SG, MTG and her Jewish space lasers was rational? All the Qanon stuff is rational? All the stuff with Boebert, Gaetz, Gosar, etc. is rational? They are representative of the people in the Republican Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative". Of course, Cheney and Kinzinger didn't toe the line either so they should be defined as rational too. I also have to question your comment that the people who don't toe the verbal narrative "represent the comment section statements." They might represent the comment section statements in the places you're reading them but I don't think they are representative of the majority of Americans. Firebrand Republican candidates did poorly on election night because they were rejected by the silent majority in the middle despite the fervent support of trump and his MAGAts.

The establishment is corrupt but they have been extremely competent when it comes to advancing their own interests. Unfortunately, the rabblerousers that are fighting the establishment aren't doing it for the good of America and the American people, they're doing it because they want a piece of the pie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.
Based on a few of the local ones that I have met (so called "rabblerousers fighting the establishment") that isn't always the case. The couple that I know best truly see the corruption that is there on both sides of the isle and want to change it for the better. But that is on the local level, and that number gets slimmer the higher one goes up the political ladder. On the national level, based on what I know, and until shown more evidence to the contrary, I would agree with your statement. Just wanted to bring up that not all rabblerousers are created equal. :twocents:

Will those local people ever move up and try to enact the same type of change they are doing on the local level? Probably not, as they know what one has to give up to do that and the compromises that end up being made.
I agree. I think local rabble rousers tend to be more focused on real change (whether good or bad). The good ones typically don't want to move up the ladder to state and national because of the corruption or are corrupted when they do.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:56 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:05 am

This.

And WB’s only half of each party is irrational is being generous.

Our system is built on legalized corruption. Plain and simple.
This? :suspicious:

AOChe wanting socialism without providing any reason why it will work this time is rational? Omar paying her political consultant/boyfriend/husband millions in fees isn't a form of corruption? They are representative of the people in the Democratic Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative".

For SG, MTG and her Jewish space lasers was rational? All the Qanon stuff is rational? All the stuff with Boebert, Gaetz, Gosar, etc. is rational? They are representative of the people in the Republican Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative". Of course, Cheney and Kinzinger didn't toe the line either so they should be defined as rational too. I also have to question your comment that the people who don't toe the verbal narrative "represent the comment section statements." They might represent the comment section statements in the places you're reading them but I don't think they are representative of the majority of Americans. Firebrand Republican candidates did poorly on election night because they were rejected by the silent majority in the middle despite the fervent support of trump and his MAGAts.

The establishment is corrupt but they have been extremely competent when it comes to advancing their own interests. Unfortunately, the rabblerousers that are fighting the establishment aren't doing it for the good of America and the American people, they're doing it because they want a piece of the pie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.
I was agreeing with the donors being the constituents.I’m guessing AOC is one of the least likely in that regard. This wasn’t about economics in particular although if you’d like to drag that into it, don’t progressives have a better track record?

EG: Biden and Buttigieg have taken beatings from the left over RR labor negotiations and airlines regs.


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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:28 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:56 pm
This? :suspicious:

AOChe wanting socialism without providing any reason why it will work this time is rational? Omar paying her political consultant/boyfriend/husband millions in fees isn't a form of corruption? They are representative of the people in the Democratic Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative".

For SG, MTG and her Jewish space lasers was rational? All the Qanon stuff is rational? All the stuff with Boebert, Gaetz, Gosar, etc. is rational? They are representative of the people in the Republican Party that "don't toe the verbal narrative". Of course, Cheney and Kinzinger didn't toe the line either so they should be defined as rational too. I also have to question your comment that the people who don't toe the verbal narrative "represent the comment section statements." They might represent the comment section statements in the places you're reading them but I don't think they are representative of the majority of Americans. Firebrand Republican candidates did poorly on election night because they were rejected by the silent majority in the middle despite the fervent support of trump and his MAGAts.

The establishment is corrupt but they have been extremely competent when it comes to advancing their own interests. Unfortunately, the rabblerousers that are fighting the establishment aren't doing it for the good of America and the American people, they're doing it because they want a piece of the pie. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.
I was agreeing with the donors being the constituents.I’m guessing AOC is one of the least likely in that regard. This wasn’t about economics in particular although if you’d like to drag that into it, don’t progressives have a better track record?

EG: Biden and Buttigieg have taken beatings from the left over RR labor negotiations and airlines regs.


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The donors are the constituents for many and less for AOChe but she has plenty of her own warts. There is more to being a good legislator than not being beholden to donors.

Buttigieg and the DOT have absolutely wet the bed with the airlines. How badly came to light over the holidays.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Up to 10 failed ballots. 1st time since 1859 it took more than 9 rounds, when it took 44.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by UNI88 »

BDKJMU wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:39 pm Up to 10 failed ballots. 1st time since 1859 it took more than 9 rounds, when it took 44.
Does McCarthy say the hell with it and withdraw and let the sh!tshow really get started?

MAGAts vs Moderates. The MAGATs need the moderates to elect a Speaker but the moderates might be able to work with Democrats to find a compromise Republican Speaker. There was almost no chance the Democrats would support McCarthy after the last 4 years but they might be receptive to someone else.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

127 speaker elections since 1789. 9 times in history that has taken more than 3 rounds:
1. Nathaniel Banks, 133 ballots, 34th Congress, 1855
2. Howell Cobb, 63 ballots, 31st Congress, 1849
3. William Pennington, 44 ballots, 36th Congress, 1859
4. John W. Taylor, 22 ballots, 16th Congress, 1820
5. Kevin McCarthy, 13 ballots (and counting), 118th Congress, 2023
6. Philip Pendleton Barbour, 12 ballots, 17th Congress, 1821
7. Robert M.T. Hunter, 11 ballots, 29th Congress, 1839
8. John W. Bell, 10 ballots, 22nd Congress, 1833
9. Frederick Gillett, 9 ballots, 68th Congress, 1923
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kevin-mcca ... s-history/
Last edited by BDKJMU on Fri Jan 06, 2023 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

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Ballot #11 fails.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:55 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:39 pm Up to 10 failed ballots. 1st time since 1859 it took more than 9 rounds, when it took 44.
Does McCarthy say the hell with it and withdraw and let the sh!tshow really get started?

MAGAts vs Moderates. The MAGATs need the moderates to elect a Speaker but the moderates might be able to work with Democrats to find a compromise Republican Speaker. There was almost no chance the Democrats would support McCarthy after the last 4 years but they might be receptive to someone else.
MAGAt's is probably the wrong term used to describe the holdouts. They have some items in common with them but for the most part are independent. The list of qualifications/concessions they are looking for, posted back in Nov/Dec, I can definitely agree with a few of them. (No more omnibus bills, cutting spending, the border, etc.). And I do not blame them for wanting any agreement in writing as McCarty is a slime ball.

Both sides are going need to make some concessions, something McCarthy should have known back in the beginning (except he probably thought they would just give in and not make a fuss) and prepared for. That he didn't or didn't take them serious, is telling.The holdouts are doing what they said they would do and why they were elected. In an era of slim majorities, this is going to happen more and more.That said both parties are to blame for the last few days, as this could have been easily hashed out ahead of time and the drama avoided.

Though it also sounds like there is a draft agreement between McCarthy and the holdouts this morning, so we will see how the day plays out.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by GannonFan »

This is the perfect opportunity for a real, cross-aisle, consensus government to come into play. For the most part, the GOP holdouts are nihilists and/or McCarthy haters and just want to blow things up. This fight for the Speaker-ship is just foreshadowing for the real drama later in the year when we get to spending bills and the debt ceiling and things of more importance. If both parties actually worked together government could get back to working and coming up with things to actually help the people they represent. However, the GOP is showing no signs of wanting to even talk to the Democrats and the Democrats look to be far more interested in winning meme points and maintaining party purity than being part of governing in this chamber. What an indictment of all that's wrong with the current political climate.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by Winterborn »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:28 am This is the perfect opportunity for a real, cross-aisle, consensus government to come into play. For the most part, the GOP holdouts are nihilists and/or McCarthy haters and just want to blow things up. This fight for the Speaker-ship is just foreshadowing for the real drama later in the year when we get to spending bills and the debt ceiling and things of more importance. If both parties actually worked together government could get back to working and coming up with things to actually help the people they represent. However, the GOP is showing no signs of wanting to even talk to the Democrats and the Democrats look to be far more interested in winning meme points and maintaining party purity than being part of governing in this chamber. What an indictment of all that's wrong with the current political climate.
Technically that is what the holdouts are doing. :kisswink:

Thinking about them logically, this is their best chance to get some concessions (as long as they don't over play their hand). Why wouldn't they take it? I see very little difference in this and what Sinema and Manchin were doing last year.

There is common ground between the holdouts and minor D party members in the fact the Speaker controls too much of what goes on (can thank Gingrich for that) and one of the sticking points that McCarty does not want to do is break up the power of the Speaker to the pre-Gringrich days. This would give more say to the minority members of the House and reduce some of the cronyism. Which is something McCarty does not want. As that power is the reason he wants the job.

Like I said earlier, there is common ground between them. The sticking point is if both sides truly want to make a deal or not. Does McCarty want to lead or not? Are the GOP holdouts, doing it out of principle or spite? Both sides are at fault here as both are acting like children.
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Re: 2022 Elections Thread

Post by UNI88 »

Winterborn wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:41 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:28 am This is the perfect opportunity for a real, cross-aisle, consensus government to come into play. For the most part, the GOP holdouts are nihilists and/or McCarthy haters and just want to blow things up. This fight for the Speaker-ship is just foreshadowing for the real drama later in the year when we get to spending bills and the debt ceiling and things of more importance. If both parties actually worked together government could get back to working and coming up with things to actually help the people they represent. However, the GOP is showing no signs of wanting to even talk to the Democrats and the Democrats look to be far more interested in winning meme points and maintaining party purity than being part of governing in this chamber. What an indictment of all that's wrong with the current political climate.
Technically that is what the holdouts are doing. :kisswink:

Thinking about them logically, this is their best chance to get some concessions (as long as they don't over play their hand). Why wouldn't they take it? I see very little difference in this and what Sinema and Manchin were doing last year.

There is common ground between the holdouts and minor D party members in the fact the Speaker controls too much of what goes on (can thank Gingrich for that) and one of the sticking points that McCarty does not want to do is break up the power of the Speaker to the pre-Gringrich days. This would give more say to the minority members of the House and reduce some of the cronyism. Which is something McCarty does not want. As that power is the reason he wants the job.

Like I said earlier, there is common ground between them. The sticking point is if both sides truly want to make a deal or not. Does McCarty want to lead or not? Are the GOP holdouts, doing it out of principle or spite? Both sides are at fault here as both are acting like children.
I thought I read that MTG was upset with Boebert and Gaetz for leaving her out of the discussion while they and the Freedom Caucus were trying to negotiate for plumb committee assignments. Are they trying to negotiate those assignments for the people they represent or so they can have a pulpit?

The difference between Manchin/Sinema and these holdouts is that Manchin/Sinema are centrists opposing more liberal policy and thus had allies to their right. The holdouts are alt-righters who have no natural allies on the side opposite of the party members they're opposing.

I believe you are correct about overplaying their hand. What if McCarthy withdraws his candidacy and the sh!tshow really starts? Every faction is going to want its piece of the pie and that is going to cut into what the holdouts want. The moderates could work a deal with the Democrats to pick a moderate Republican Speaker and then what do the holdouts get? Or they might not and the negotiations could drag out so long that they have to go to McCarthy with hat in hand asking him to reconsider without many of the concessions.

FTR I agree that many of the procedural changes are needed.
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