January 6 - How much do you care?

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January 6 - How much do you care?

10
7
21%
9
0
No votes
8
0
No votes
7
2
6%
6
2
6%
5
1
3%
4
2
6%
3
3
9%
2
6
18%
1
10
30%
 
Total votes: 33

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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

houndawg wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:05 pm
Winterborn wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:36 pm

The adjectives you were using made me think that you hadn't. ;)

That said, I do not lend much credence in personal testimony unless it is backed up concrete evidence. I also give people that are testifying plenty of leeway as being on the stand or deposed can make the most stalwart person shake in their boots.
Which of personal testimony given so far do you not find credible?
Studies have shown that around 50% of eyewitness testimony is inaccurate as it is biased towards their own well-being.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:51 pm
Winterborn wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:36 pm

The adjectives you were using made me think that you hadn't. ;)

That said, I do not lend much credence in personal testimony unless it is backed up concrete evidence. I also give people that are testifying plenty of leeway as being on the stand or deposed can make the most stalwart person shake in their boots.
Fair question but those under oath in this and who are providing commentary have. FWIW, my observations pale in comparison to many lifelong conservative/Republican commentators regarding what’s happening.
Then a conviction must be right around the corner then for Trump. :thumb:

And oaths have shown to mean very little when it comes to DC politics as evident by several recent trials in DC.

Also which commentators? I am curious on exactly what they are saying as I have been following multiple different ones and so far it has been pretty much stuff we already knew.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:39 pm
kalm wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:51 pm

Fair question but those under oath in this and who are providing commentary have. FWIW, my observations pale in comparison to many lifelong conservative/Republican commentators regarding what’s happening.
Then a conviction must be right around the corner then for Trump. :thumb:

And oaths have shown to mean very little when it comes to DC politics as evident by several recent trials in DC.

Also which commentators? I am curious on exactly what they are saying as I have been following multiple different ones and so far it has been pretty much stuff we already knew.
I thought I was following the circus fairly closely and I was still surprised by what’s cone out. At least it confirmed some suspicions. You must follow it more closely than I have.

I won’t hold my breath that Trump will be prosecuted. He did tweet )or truth or that ever it’s called) today that “I demand equal time” so… :lol:

Jennifer Rubin
Rick Wilson
Ron Filipkowski
Bill Krystol

To name several.

And right back at you on who you’re following. I enjoy reasonable conservative viewpoints.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:19 pm
Winterborn wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:39 pm

Then a conviction must be right around the corner then for Trump. :thumb:

And oaths have shown to mean very little when it comes to DC politics as evident by several recent trials in DC.

Also which commentators? I am curious on exactly what they are saying as I have been following multiple different ones and so far it has been pretty much stuff we already knew.
I thought I was following the circus fairly closely and I was still surprised by what’s cone out. At least it confirmed some suspicions. You must follow it more closely than I have.

I won’t hold my breath that Trump will be prosecuted. He did tweet )or truth or that ever it’s called) today that “I demand equal time” so… :lol:

Jennifer Rubin
Rick Wilson
Ron Filipkowski
Bill Krystol

To name several.

And right back at you on who you’re following. I enjoy reasonable conservative viewpoints.
I actually have followed it very little to none here the last 3 or 4 months. I just know how DC works and the circus it likes to show the rest of America as a distraction. And people are very, very happy to follow the dog & pony show that the media spoon feeds them on a regular basis from their political masters.

I do not follow many "conservative" people at all now that I think about it. Conservative leaning yes, but mostly all over the board. I just read them all (CNN, Politco, The Atlantic, MSNBC, NPR, Hotair, Reason, Glenn Greenwood, Bari Weiss, The Hill, Robert Barnes, BBC, Reuters, Australian News, etc.) And funnily enough I just realized that I read more CNN than I do Fox News. :lol:

Viva & Barnes is one of many law podcasts I follow. I normally go the law route as that is what I most familiar with due to work and personal interests. Scotus Blog is another website that I follow for SC information.

My job is heavily political influenced and over the last number of years I have picked up habits that carry over into my personal life. Not good for the dating life, but I can spot BS and sling it almost as fast as a DC politician by now. :D
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“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

The biggest key in anything DC is try to understand where the narrative is coming from and who is pushing it. Both sides give money to the opposing sides in order to try and influence certain elections. The uni-party is an apt description of the "swamp", followed by the bureaucratic minions that actually do the work and influence the laws. They are the ones that craft the overall language that is put forth in the actual bills that are "signed".

DC is all theater and the sooner people realize this the better. Nothing is serious in DC and "committee's" are the worst due to nothing gets done in any committee that is publicized as it is all for show.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by HI54UNI »

kalm wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:19 pm
Winterborn wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:39 pm

Then a conviction must be right around the corner then for Trump. :thumb:

And oaths have shown to mean very little when it comes to DC politics as evident by several recent trials in DC.

Also which commentators? I am curious on exactly what they are saying as I have been following multiple different ones and so far it has been pretty much stuff we already knew.
I thought I was following the circus fairly closely and I was still surprised by what’s cone out. At least it confirmed some suspicions. You must follow it more closely than I have.

I won’t hold my breath that Trump will be prosecuted. He did tweet )or truth or that ever it’s called) today that “I demand equal time” so… :lol:

Jennifer Rubin
Rick Wilson
Ron Filipkowski
Bill Krystol

To name several.

And right back at you on who you’re following. I enjoy reasonable conservative viewpoints.


Jennifer Rubin :lol: :lol: She's as conservative as JSO.
Rick Wilson Pedo Protector and grifter :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ron Filipkowski Never heard of him. Googled him and he says he's a Democrat.
Bill Krystol Kalm loves him some neocons! :lol: :lol:
Last edited by HI54UNI on Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by HI54UNI »

Winterborn wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:31 pm The biggest key in anything DC is try to understand where the narrative is coming from and who is pushing it. Both sides give money to the opposing sides in order to try and influence certain elections. The uni-party is an apt description of the "swamp", followed by the bureaucratic minions that actually do the work and influence the laws. They are the ones that craft the overall language that is put forth in the actual bills that are "signed".

DC is all theater and the sooner people realize this the better. Nothing is serious in DC and "committee's" are the worst due to nothing gets done in any committee that is publicized as it is all for show.
+6.93
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

HI54UNI wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:46 am
kalm wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:19 pm

I thought I was following the circus fairly closely and I was still surprised by what’s cone out. At least it confirmed some suspicions. You must follow it more closely than I have.

I won’t hold my breath that Trump will be prosecuted. He did tweet )or truth or that ever it’s called) today that “I demand equal time” so… :lol:

Jennifer Rubin
Rick Wilson
Ron Filipkowski
Bill Krystol

To name several.

And right back at you on who you’re following. I enjoy reasonable conservative viewpoints.


Jennifer Rubin :lol: :lol: She's as conservative as JSO.
Rick Wilson Pedo Protector and grifter :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ron Filipkowski Never heard of him. Googled him and he says he's a Democrat.
Bill Krystol Kalm loves him some neocons! :lol: :lol:
They’re that now rare bird we used to call “moderate conservatives”. :| :kisswink:

Who do you follow?
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:00 am
HI54UNI wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:46 am



Jennifer Rubin :lol: :lol: She's as conservative as JSO.
Rick Wilson Pedo Protector and grifter :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ron Filipkowski Never heard of him. Googled him and he says he's a Democrat.
Bill Krystol Kalm loves him some neocons! :lol: :lol:
They’re that now rare bird we used to call “moderate liberals”. :| :kisswink:

Who do you follow?
FYP :kisswink:
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:08 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:00 am

They’re that now rare bird we used to call “moderate liberals”. :| :kisswink:

Who do you follow?
FYP :kisswink:
Thanks.

In case you’re wondering what an inarguably true conservative testified about the seriousness of 1/6…
The appearance of Judge Luttig today was in keeping with this theme. Luttig is such a giant in conservative legal circles that he was talked of for the Supreme Court in place of Samuel Alito, and his words bear extraordinary weight. Luttig hammered home that Trump’s scheme was an attempt to overturn the rule of law and to destroy our democracy. And, he warned, the danger is not over. Trump and his supporters remain “a clear and present danger to American democracy.”

Luttig’s testimony was powerful, but even more extraordinary was a statement he released before today’s hearing. Luttig, for whom both Eastman and Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) clerked, warned that “January 6 was…a war for America’s democracy, a war irresponsibly instigated and prosecuted by the former president, his political party allies, and his supporters.”

That is, Luttig laid the responsibility for today’s national crisis at the door of the Trump wing of the Republican Party. He went on to warn that only it could reject the attempt of the president and his supporters to undermine the faith in our elections that underpins our democracy: “[O]nly the party that instigated this war over our democracy can bring an end to that war…. These senseless wars…were conceived and instigated from our Nation’s Capital by our own political leaders…and they have been cynically prosecuted by them to fever pitch, now to the point that they have recklessly put America herself at stake.”

Luttig urged Americans to remember that the fate of our democracy is in our hands and to reject the fever dreams of the Trump Republicans in favor of “a new vision, new truths, new values, new principles, new beliefs, new hopes and dreams that hopefully could once again bind our divided nation together into the more perfect union that ‘We the People’ originally ordained and established it to be.”

“The time has come,” Luttig wrote, “for us to decide whether we allow this war over our democracy to be prosecuted to its catastrophic end or whether we ourselves demand the immediate suspension of this war and insist on peace instead. We must make this decision because our political leaders are unwilling and unable, even as they recklessly prosecute this war in our name.”
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/

And if that’s not enough, consider the testimony on Pence refusing to get in the secret service car and what the Proud Boys testified they were going to do with him.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:19 am
Winterborn wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:08 am

FYP :kisswink:
Thanks.

In case you’re wondering what an inarguably true conservative testified about the seriousness of 1/6…
The appearance of Judge Luttig today was in keeping with this theme. Luttig is such a giant in conservative legal circles that he was talked of for the Supreme Court in place of Samuel Alito, and his words bear extraordinary weight. Luttig hammered home that Trump’s scheme was an attempt to overturn the rule of law and to destroy our democracy. And, he warned, the danger is not over. Trump and his supporters remain “a clear and present danger to American democracy.”

Luttig’s testimony was powerful, but even more extraordinary was a statement he released before today’s hearing. Luttig, for whom both Eastman and Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) clerked, warned that “January 6 was…a war for America’s democracy, a war irresponsibly instigated and prosecuted by the former president, his political party allies, and his supporters.”

That is, Luttig laid the responsibility for today’s national crisis at the door of the Trump wing of the Republican Party. He went on to warn that only it could reject the attempt of the president and his supporters to undermine the faith in our elections that underpins our democracy: “[O]nly the party that instigated this war over our democracy can bring an end to that war…. These senseless wars…were conceived and instigated from our Nation’s Capital by our own political leaders…and they have been cynically prosecuted by them to fever pitch, now to the point that they have recklessly put America herself at stake.”

Luttig urged Americans to remember that the fate of our democracy is in our hands and to reject the fever dreams of the Trump Republicans in favor of “a new vision, new truths, new values, new principles, new beliefs, new hopes and dreams that hopefully could once again bind our divided nation together into the more perfect union that ‘We the People’ originally ordained and established it to be.”

“The time has come,” Luttig wrote, “for us to decide whether we allow this war over our democracy to be prosecuted to its catastrophic end or whether we ourselves demand the immediate suspension of this war and insist on peace instead. We must make this decision because our political leaders are unwilling and unable, even as they recklessly prosecute this war in our name.”
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/

And if that’s not enough, consider the testimony on Pence refusing to get in the secret service car and what the Proud Boys testified they were going to do with him.
Enough of what? Hillary used a government agency for her own goals to try and prevent an election from happening and declaring it illegitimate. Trump was a buffoon and thought he had a way to declare the election illegitimate due to a sleazy lawyer. That pretty much sums both similar situations in two sentences. What will happen is that some low lying players will get punished and that is about it. Trump is guilty of being an idiot and surrounding himself with idiots and then believing those idiots and not truly realizing what those idiots were saying.

DC politics is all the same. See my previous post about it all being theater. I will read the transcripts after this fake "mini-series" is over and decide then. Right now it is all smoke and mirrors and people trying to get even with each other. Lots of "exciting" language being thrown around which makes great TV and it has great emotional overtones. Half the excitement is that people see themselves advancing their careers and gaining/trading favors. Favors are the true currency in DC (that and getting dirt on others).

Personally the DOW dropping below 30k yesterday and Biden's war on oil/manufacturing/chemicals is a bit more concerning to me than what theater is being put on by the Democratic party as a distraction (or do you thinking the timing of this "trial" was just a coincidence?).

Hint: Nothing is a coincidence in DC and this whole show was mapped out from when Biden was elected and everybody from the media on down had their roles told to them. I am glad you find it entertaining/riveting, me I have better things to do then watch a TV show that I know the plot and ending of.
“The best of all things is to learn. Money can be lost or stolen, health and strength may fail, but what you have committed to your mind is yours forever.” – Louis L’Amour

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” - G. Michael Hopf

"I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious.” – Albert Einstein
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:03 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:19 am

Thanks.

In case you’re wondering what an inarguably true conservative testified about the seriousness of 1/6…



https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/

And if that’s not enough, consider the testimony on Pence refusing to get in the secret service car and what the Proud Boys testified they were going to do with him.
Enough of what? Hillary used a government agency for her own goals to try and prevent an election from happening and declaring it illegitimate. Trump was a buffoon and thought he had a way to declare the election illegitimate due to a sleazy lawyer. That pretty much sums both similar situations in two sentences. What will happen is that some low lying players will get punished and that is about it. Trump is guilty of being an idiot and surrounding himself with idiots and then believing those idiots and not truly realizing what those idiots were saying.

DC politics is all the same. See my previous post about it all being theater. I will read the transcripts after this fake "mini-series" is over and decide then. Right now it is all smoke and mirrors and people trying to get even with each other. Lots of "exciting" language being thrown around which makes great TV and it has great emotional overtones. Half the excitement is that people see themselves advancing their careers and gaining/trading favors. Favors are the true currency in DC (that and getting dirt on others).

Personally the DOW dropping below 30k yesterday and Biden's war on oil/manufacturing/chemicals is a bit more concerning to me than what theater is being put on by the Democratic party as a distraction (or do you thinking the timing of this "trial" was just a coincidence?).

Hint: Nothing is a coincidence in DC and this whole show was mapped out from when Biden was elected and everybody from the media on down had their roles told to them. I am glad you find it entertaining/riveting, me I have better things to do then watch a TV show that I know the plot and ending of.
Enough evidence that what happened was a big deal.

I think Democracy, whether it’s being threatened by Trump’s coup scheming or big donors to the Democratic Party is more important than my retirement (which is pretty fucking important) or the price of oil (also pretty fucking important).

Even Eastman admitted this was unconstitutional (but figured “ah fuck it, we’ll try it anyway). Aren’t you conservatives supposed to support the sanctity of constitutional law?

Of course it’s theater. I cringe every time Bennie Thompson introduced a point. That doesn’t mean what happened isn’t real.

To dismiss the gravity puts you in the bizarre situation of agreeing with Trump, Ginny Thomas, and maybe Rudy but none of the rest of the legal minds he surrounded himself with as well as being ok with Kamala Harris deciding the outcome of the next presidential election regardless of the voting outcome.

I’d like to think that’s not where you’re at.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by Winterborn »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:41 am
Winterborn wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:03 am

Enough of what? Hillary used a government agency for her own goals to try and prevent an election from happening and declaring it illegitimate. Trump was a buffoon and thought he had a way to declare the election illegitimate due to a sleazy lawyer. That pretty much sums both similar situations in two sentences. What will happen is that some low lying players will get punished and that is about it. Trump is guilty of being an idiot and surrounding himself with idiots and then believing those idiots and not truly realizing what those idiots were saying.

DC politics is all the same. See my previous post about it all being theater. I will read the transcripts after this fake "mini-series" is over and decide then. Right now it is all smoke and mirrors and people trying to get even with each other. Lots of "exciting" language being thrown around which makes great TV and it has great emotional overtones. Half the excitement is that people see themselves advancing their careers and gaining/trading favors. Favors are the true currency in DC (that and getting dirt on others).

Personally the DOW dropping below 30k yesterday and Biden's war on oil/manufacturing/chemicals is a bit more concerning to me than what theater is being put on by the Democratic party as a distraction (or do you thinking the timing of this "trial" was just a coincidence?).

Hint: Nothing is a coincidence in DC and this whole show was mapped out from when Biden was elected and everybody from the media on down had their roles told to them. I am glad you find it entertaining/riveting, me I have better things to do then watch a TV show that I know the plot and ending of.
Enough evidence that what happened was a big deal.

I think Democracy, whether it’s being threatened by Trump’s coup scheming or big donors to the Democratic Party is more important than my retirement (which is pretty fucking important) or the price of oil (also pretty fucking important).

Even Eastman admitted this was unconstitutional (but figured “ah fuck it, we’ll try it anyway). Aren’t you conservatives supposed to support the sanctity of constitutional law?

Of course it’s theater. I cringe every time Bennie Thompson introduced a point. That doesn’t mean what happened isn’t real.

To dismiss the gravity puts you in the bizarre situation of agreeing with Trump, Ginny Thomas, and maybe Rudy but none of the rest of the legal minds he surrounded himself with as well as being ok with Kamala Harris deciding the outcome of the next presidential election regardless of the voting outcome.

I’d like to think that’s not where you’re at.
Let me put it this way. It is as big of deal as Hillary using a Federal agency for a private agenda. She will never be punished for that egregious misuse of position and power. If the evidence is there (true evidence more so then Trump was/is an idiot) then convict him. If you cannot convict him, then I guess him and Hillary have more in common than they would like. They are both good at not getting prosecuted.

OF course Eastman is going to say that and maybe he did realize it after the fact but by proposing it to start he must of thought it had a chance of success. This is just him passing blame off of himself and unto Trump, hence my earlier comment that eyewitness testimony is only accurate about 50% of the time.

I put it in the same "gravity" as any other abuse of power by elected leaders these past few election cycles (and there were probably more before that but I was not paying attention then). I am against them in all forms and the rule of law needs to be followed. That said, until they are convicted I will not hold my breath. I am by no means dismissing them, which is why I said I would read the transcripts after the fact, but I can have zero affect on the outcome of said "trial", so why should I concern myself with what some elected idiots did in office (outside of just generally being informed)?

If he is convicted, good. It is not going to stop the American voters from electing another idiot into office. In fact it happened the very next election. I take a very practical mindset when it comes to politics. I stay informed to the best of my ability, I make informed decisions when it comes to voting, the rest I do not get excited about. Happy to debate pretty much any topic, I just do not get excited about what in the end can/will be summed up in about a 20 minute read.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:13 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:41 am

Enough evidence that what happened was a big deal.

I think Democracy, whether it’s being threatened by Trump’s coup scheming or big donors to the Democratic Party is more important than my retirement (which is pretty fucking important) or the price of oil (also pretty fucking important).

Even Eastman admitted this was unconstitutional (but figured “ah fuck it, we’ll try it anyway). Aren’t you conservatives supposed to support the sanctity of constitutional law?

Of course it’s theater. I cringe every time Bennie Thompson introduced a point. That doesn’t mean what happened isn’t real.

To dismiss the gravity puts you in the bizarre situation of agreeing with Trump, Ginny Thomas, and maybe Rudy but none of the rest of the legal minds he surrounded himself with as well as being ok with Kamala Harris deciding the outcome of the next presidential election regardless of the voting outcome.

I’d like to think that’s not where you’re at.
Let me put it this way. It is as big of deal as Hillary using a Federal agency for a private agenda. She will never be punished for that egregious misuse of position and power. If the evidence is there (true evidence more so then Trump was/is an idiot) then convict him. If you cannot convict him, then I guess him and Hillary have more in common than they would like. They are both good at not getting prosecuted.

OF course Eastman is going to say that and maybe he did realize it after the fact but by proposing it to start he must of thought it had a chance of success. This is just him passing blame off of himself and unto Trump, hence my earlier comment that eyewitness testimony is only accurate about 50% of the time.

I put it in the same "gravity" as any other abuse of power by elected leaders these past few election cycles (and there were probably more before that but I was not paying attention then). I am against them in all forms and the rule of law needs to be followed. That said, until they are convicted I will not hold my breath. I am by no means dismissing them, which is why I said I would read the transcripts after the fact, but I can have zero affect on the outcome of said "trial", so why should I concern myself with what some elected idiots did in office (outside of just generally being informed)?

If he is convicted, good. It is not going to stop the American voters from electing another idiot into office. In fact it happened the very next election. I take a very practical mindset when it comes to politics. I stay informed to the best of my ability, I make informed decisions when it comes to voting, the rest I do not get excited about. Happy to debate pretty much any topic, I just do not get excited about what in the end can/will be summed up in about a 20 minute read.
Good post. I’ll remind that I am neither a Democrat or a Hillary fan…at all.

I’m just further along on your 20 minute read (EG: Eastman). I totally appreciate your attitude regarding not getting too worked up.

Democracy is ugly and by nature requires participation. Enter at your own risk (saying that more to myself than anyone else). ;)
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:29 am
Winterborn wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:13 am

Let me put it this way. It is as big of deal as Hillary using a Federal agency for a private agenda. She will never be punished for that egregious misuse of position and power. If the evidence is there (true evidence more so then Trump was/is an idiot) then convict him. If you cannot convict him, then I guess him and Hillary have more in common than they would like. They are both good at not getting prosecuted.

OF course Eastman is going to say that and maybe he did realize it after the fact but by proposing it to start he must of thought it had a chance of success. This is just him passing blame off of himself and unto Trump, hence my earlier comment that eyewitness testimony is only accurate about 50% of the time.

I put it in the same "gravity" as any other abuse of power by elected leaders these past few election cycles (and there were probably more before that but I was not paying attention then). I am against them in all forms and the rule of law needs to be followed. That said, until they are convicted I will not hold my breath. I am by no means dismissing them, which is why I said I would read the transcripts after the fact, but I can have zero affect on the outcome of said "trial", so why should I concern myself with what some elected idiots did in office (outside of just generally being informed)?

If he is convicted, good. It is not going to stop the American voters from electing another idiot into office. In fact it happened the very next election. I take a very practical mindset when it comes to politics. I stay informed to the best of my ability, I make informed decisions when it comes to voting, the rest I do not get excited about. Happy to debate pretty much any topic, I just do not get excited about what in the end can/will be summed up in about a 20 minute read.
Good post. I’ll remind that I am neither a Democrat or a Hillary fan…at all.

I’m just further along on your 20 minute read (EG: Eastman). I totally appreciate your attitude regarding not getting too worked up.

Democracy is ugly and by nature requires participation. Enter at your own risk (saying that more to myself than anyone else). ;)
And socialism/communism is even uglier. And doesn’t allow participation. Pick your poison.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:49 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:29 am

Good post. I’ll remind that I am neither a Democrat or a Hillary fan…at all.

I’m just further along on your 20 minute read (EG: Eastman). I totally appreciate your attitude regarding not getting too worked up.

Democracy is ugly and by nature requires participation. Enter at your own risk (saying that more to myself than anyone else). ;)
And socialism/communism is even uglier. And doesn’t allow participation. Pick your poison.
Authoritarianism doesn’t.

There are many social democracies with capitalist economies.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:43 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:49 am
And socialism/communism is even uglier. And doesn’t allow participation. Pick your poison.
Authoritarianism doesn’t.

There are many social democracies with capitalist economies.
Unfortunately, a social democracy with a capitalist economy isn't the goal of America's far left.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:59 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:43 pm

Authoritarianism doesn’t.

There are many social democracies with capitalist economies.
Unfortunately, a social democracy with a capitalist economy isn't the goal of America's far left.
Exactly. And what’s one thing all social democracies with capitalist economies have in common?

Answer: The US provides the vast majority of their defense. :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:05 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:59 pm

Unfortunately, a social democracy with a capitalist economy isn't the goal of America's far left.
Exactly. And what’s one thing all social democracies with capitalist economies have in common?

Answer: The US provides the vast majority of their defense. :coffee: :coffee:
We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:21 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:05 pm
Exactly. And what’s one thing all social democracies with capitalist economies have in common?

Answer: The US provides the vast majority of their defense. :coffee: :coffee:
We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
Yes we do. We've been doing it since the end of WWII and the much of the world takes it for granted. It's been good for peace and commerce but it's fricking expensive. It's high time that countries that prospered greatly under our protective umbrella contribute to the cost/effort.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:21 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:05 pm

Exactly. And what’s one thing all social democracies with capitalist economies have in common?

Answer: The US provides the vast majority of their defense. :coffee: :coffee:
We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
Who would ever classify Russia as a capitalist economy? There's no freedom in that country, just oligarchies controlling everything. I don't think you can have that level of authoritarian control and still call it capitalism.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:11 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:21 pm

We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
Yes we do. We've been doing it since the end of WWII and the much of the world takes it for granted. It's been good for peace and commerce but it's fricking expensive. It's high time that countries that prospered greatly under our protective umbrella contribute to the cost/effort.
Totally agree.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:30 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:21 pm

We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
Who would ever classify Russia as a capitalist economy? There's no freedom in that country, just oligarchies controlling everything. I don't think you can have that level of authoritarian control and still call it capitalism.
It was tongue in cheek. I’ve seen Russia characterized by others as statist capitalism. I don’t agree either but it does have oligarchs and captains of industry who exert monopolistic control over large sectors of the economy allocation of resources and labor supply….so I get where they’re going with the description.
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:21 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:05 pm

Exactly. And what’s one thing all social democracies with capitalist economies have in common?

Answer: The US provides the vast majority of their defense. :coffee: :coffee:
We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
Yes, and those fucking grifters use that leverage to provide free or subsidized healthcare and then rub our noses in it.

Again, stop being the world’s policeman and we’d have bucketfuls of money to spend on socialist-type shit. Just can’t do both without bankrupting the country (which we’re well on our way to, by the way).
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Re: January 6 - How much do you care?

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:01 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:21 pm

We provide security for most of the world. Except the state driven capitalist economy of Russia. :coffee:
Yes, and those fucking grifters use that leverage to provide free or subsidized healthcare and then rub our noses in it.

Again, stop being the world’s policeman and we’d have bucketfuls of money to spend on socialist-type shit. Just can’t do both without bankrupting the country (which we’re well on our way to, by the way).
It’s a choice we’ve made freely.
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