Bidenflation and Shortage thread

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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:01 am
GannonFan wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:53 am

No fair trying to distort the debate on your way out the door. We agreed that monopolistic practices certainly prevail in the infant formula market. We differ on how they are created (I proved it came from government and regulatory pressures, you waved the crony capitalism flag with nary a thought to back that up). This all came about because you said deregulation, in one of the most regulated sectors of manufacture, was to blame. Now you can close the door. :coffee:
Aside from the obvious role financial deregulation plays in consolidation of manufacturers, you’re also wrong in this particular case.
But eight years earlier, the formula industry rejected an opportunity to take a more proactive approach — not only for increasing supply capacity, but also for preventing a potential outbreak. Records show that the industry successfully mobilized against a 2014 proposal from the FDA to increase regular safety inspections of plants used to manufacture baby formula.

At the time, the FDA had proposed rules to prevent the adulteration of baby formula in any step of the process in order to prevent contamination from salmonella and Cronobacter sakazakii, which led to this year’s Sturgis plant shutdown.

The largest infant formula manufacturers quickly stepped up to delay the safety proposals. The International Formula Council, now known as the Infant Nutrition Council of America, is the lobby group that represents Abbott Nutrition (owned by Abbott Laboratories), Gerber (owned by Nestlé), Perrigo Co., and Reckitt Benckiser Group, the companies that control 89 percent of the baby formula market in the U.S.
https://theintercept.com/2022/05/13/bab ... -lobbying/

I’m trying to exit hopeless discussions where one side (in this case you) are so in love with their own ideas despite obvious examples and history, that there’s nothing to be gained by proceeding.

:thumb:
Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in. The article says that a way to increase supply capacity would more regular safety inspections by the FDA? Have you ever been in a plant when a regulatory group does an inspection? Rarely does that result in more output. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the inspections, of course we should, but only a government-type could actually argue that having more inspections would alleviate supply capacity. If you aren't going to argue logically, then yes, by all means exit the discussion.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:01 am

Aside from the obvious role financial deregulation plays in consolidation of manufacturers, you’re also wrong in this particular case.



https://theintercept.com/2022/05/13/bab ... -lobbying/

I’m trying to exit hopeless discussions where one side (in this case you) are so in love with their own ideas despite obvious examples and history, that there’s nothing to be gained by proceeding.

:thumb:
Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in. The article says that a way to increase supply capacity would more regular safety inspections by the FDA? Have you ever been in a plant when a regulatory group does an inspection? Rarely does that result in more output. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the inspections, of course we should, but only a government-type could actually argue that having more inspections would alleviate supply capacity. If you aren't going to argue logically, then yes, by all means exit the discussion.
Yawn…like I originally said…

(You should try reading quality investigative journalists like David Dayen.

Yes they’re still out there and yes it may help you connect done dots.)

I can’t hold your hands forever.
Was there a large influx of babies that I’m not aware of? Have they all gotten hungrier? Contrary to myth, the pandemic and the forced lockdowns did not lead to a baby boom; in fact, they led to a baby bust. U.S. births declined in the first half of 2021, the last point for which we have data. Even if there was an uptick later, it’s extremely unlikely to see an 18 percent surge.

Left unsaid by formula manufacturers is their iron grip on the market, which exacerbates supply disruptions. The shortage is a manifestation of the same problems we’ve seen with the supply chain, made worse by monopoly.

As of 2018, four companies—Abbott (which makes Similac), Reckitt Benckiser (Enfamil), Nestlé (Gerber), and Perrigo (which makes store-brand formula)—control about 89 percent of the U.S. market. Any disruption to one of their products will be magnified, whether it’s a recall for Similac or inability to source ingredients. A few companies in the market relying on the same sources creates a much more fragile supply chain.

Keep in mind that baby formula consists mostly of dehydrated cow’s milk, vitamins, and a ton of sugar. Yet it somehow costs at least $150 and as much as $428 a month, high enough to sustain a mass crime ring even before the price jumped 18 percent over the past year. This is probably not as distressing to the oligopolistic companies selling the stuff as it is for families.

Some have suggested that the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program is responsible for the shortages. Half of all U.S. formula consumption goes through WIC, which provides free infant formula through a competitive bidding process where states negotiate bulk discounts in exchange for market exclusivity. But that program has been in place since the 1980s; it cannot be responsible for the inflation over the past year. Similarly, research has found little or no effect between the WIC program and higher retail prices for non-WIC families.

The competitive bidding setup does tend to concentrate the market, however. (It’s a bit of a chicken-or-egg problem; market concentration may have caused few WIC bidders, not the other way around.) This is manageable except in cases of supply shock, as we’re now seeing. The antitrust agencies should definitely take a look.

Meanwhile, one shouldn’t deny the fierce use of lobbying to cement the industry’s monopoly. During the Trump administration, U.S. delegates to the United Nations threatened countries with trade sanctions and withdrawal of military aid if they supported an anodyne international resolution in support of breastfeeding as a healthy option for infants. That was stage-managed by the baby formula industry, which particularly wanted to keep its lock on the developing world. The interests of private monopolists were put ahead of public health and security.

The dominant companies claim to be ramping up production to solve the shortage. It should be noted that their incentives run in the other direction, to keep prices high by putting a lid on supply. When you’re a monopolist, you can do that without much trouble.
https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newslett ... -shortage/
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:01 am I’m trying to exit hopeless discussions where one side (in this case you) are so in love with their own ideas despite obvious examples and history, that there’s nothing to be gained by proceeding.
Pot meet kettle.
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 am Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in.
Top 10 dumbest rebuttals on CS would be a heckuva list. :D
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:49 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:01 am I’m trying to exit hopeless discussions where one side (in this case you) are so in love with their own ideas despite obvious examples and history, that there’s nothing to be gained by proceeding.
Pot meet kettle.
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 am Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in.
Top 10 dumbest rebuttals on CS would be a heckuva list. :D
I guess that makes you the :coffee: in this scenario.

:)
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:15 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 am

Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in. The article says that a way to increase supply capacity would more regular safety inspections by the FDA? Have you ever been in a plant when a regulatory group does an inspection? Rarely does that result in more output. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the inspections, of course we should, but only a government-type could actually argue that having more inspections would alleviate supply capacity. If you aren't going to argue logically, then yes, by all means exit the discussion.
Yawn…like I originally said…

(You should try reading quality investigative journalists like David Dayen.

Yes they’re still out there and yes it may help you connect done dots.)

I can’t hold your hands forever.
Was there a large influx of babies that I’m not aware of? Have they all gotten hungrier? Contrary to myth, the pandemic and the forced lockdowns did not lead to a baby boom; in fact, they led to a baby bust. U.S. births declined in the first half of 2021, the last point for which we have data. Even if there was an uptick later, it’s extremely unlikely to see an 18 percent surge.

Left unsaid by formula manufacturers is their iron grip on the market, which exacerbates supply disruptions. The shortage is a manifestation of the same problems we’ve seen with the supply chain, made worse by monopoly.

As of 2018, four companies—Abbott (which makes Similac), Reckitt Benckiser (Enfamil), Nestlé (Gerber), and Perrigo (which makes store-brand formula)—control about 89 percent of the U.S. market. Any disruption to one of their products will be magnified, whether it’s a recall for Similac or inability to source ingredients. A few companies in the market relying on the same sources creates a much more fragile supply chain.

Keep in mind that baby formula consists mostly of dehydrated cow’s milk, vitamins, and a ton of sugar. Yet it somehow costs at least $150 and as much as $428 a month, high enough to sustain a mass crime ring even before the price jumped 18 percent over the past year. This is probably not as distressing to the oligopolistic companies selling the stuff as it is for families.

Some have suggested that the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program is responsible for the shortages. Half of all U.S. formula consumption goes through WIC, which provides free infant formula through a competitive bidding process where states negotiate bulk discounts in exchange for market exclusivity. But that program has been in place since the 1980s; it cannot be responsible for the inflation over the past year. Similarly, research has found little or no effect between the WIC program and higher retail prices for non-WIC families.

The competitive bidding setup does tend to concentrate the market, however. (It’s a bit of a chicken-or-egg problem; market concentration may have caused few WIC bidders, not the other way around.) This is manageable except in cases of supply shock, as we’re now seeing. The antitrust agencies should definitely take a look.

Meanwhile, one shouldn’t deny the fierce use of lobbying to cement the industry’s monopoly. During the Trump administration, U.S. delegates to the United Nations threatened countries with trade sanctions and withdrawal of military aid if they supported an anodyne international resolution in support of breastfeeding as a healthy option for infants. That was stage-managed by the baby formula industry, which particularly wanted to keep its lock on the developing world. The interests of private monopolists were put ahead of public health and security.

The dominant companies claim to be ramping up production to solve the shortage. It should be noted that their incentives run in the other direction, to keep prices high by putting a lid on supply. When you’re a monopolist, you can do that without much trouble.
https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newslett ... -shortage/
It's official, kalm has granted me the title of "quality investigative journalist". After all that huffawing and dodging, apparently he wasn't even reading my stuff. In one case, I said...
Gannonfan wrote:1) Pricing matters because it keeps competitors out of the market. Not everyone, especially those entering the market, can afford the upfront investment that would allow them to go low in the bid process. That limits participation in the market. When there's another market blow, such as a closed manufacturing plant, it leads to a shortage. Not a big leap here.
And now he posts the above that has this:
The competitive bidding setup does tend to concentrate the market, however... This is manageable except in cases of supply shock, as we’re now seeing.
So not only is kalmie proving that I was correct, but I'm at the level of "a quality investigative journalist". Thanks, kalm, I appreciate the admiration. :thumb:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by Pwns »

Don't know if you guys have ever heard of Blue Bell ice Cream, but back in 2015 their creamery had a problem with listeria and it was months before they got their production going again and almost 2 years before they got distribution to all the places they had previously sold to.

Now obviously ice cream isn't as important as baby formula but that was a canary in the coal mine that was clearly ignored.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by BDKJMU »

GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:01 am

Aside from the obvious role financial deregulation plays in consolidation of manufacturers, you’re also wrong in this particular case.



https://theintercept.com/2022/05/13/bab ... -lobbying/

I’m trying to exit hopeless discussions where one side (in this case you) are so in love with their own ideas despite obvious examples and history, that there’s nothing to be gained by proceeding.

:thumb:
Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in. The article says that a way to increase supply capacity would more regular safety inspections by the FDA? Have you ever been in a plant when a regulatory group does an inspection? Rarely does that result in more output. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the inspections, of course we should, but only a government-type could actually argue that having more inspections would alleviate supply capacity. If you aren't going to argue logically, then yes, by all means exit the discussion.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:14 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:15 am

Yawn…like I originally said…

(You should try reading quality investigative journalists like David Dayen.

Yes they’re still out there and yes it may help you connect done dots.)

I can’t hold your hands forever.



https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newslett ... -shortage/
It's official, kalm has granted me the title of "quality investigative journalist". After all that huffawing and dodging, apparently he wasn't even reading my stuff. In one case, I said...
Gannonfan wrote:1) Pricing matters because it keeps competitors out of the market. Not everyone, especially those entering the market, can afford the upfront investment that would allow them to go low in the bid process. That limits participation in the market. When there's another market blow, such as a closed manufacturing plant, it leads to a shortage. Not a big leap here.
And now he posts the above that has this:
The competitive bidding setup does tend to concentrate the market, however... This is manageable except in cases of supply shock, as we’re now seeing.
So not only is kalmie proving that I was correct, but I'm at the level of "a quality investigative journalist". Thanks, kalm, I appreciate the admiration. :thumb:
So to circle back…the shortage has a whole bunch to do with monopolistic practices and deregulation writ large (as I already clarified) enabling companies to manipulate agencies like the FDA at the expense of supply and ultimately consumers as the article you just quoted also implies.

At this point, I’m super concerned of a pending cherry shortage considering your efficiency at picking.

:lol:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:44 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 am

Dude, that's perhaps one of the dumber rebuttals I've heard on this site, and it's a site where JSO and houndy and BDK post regularly, so let that sink in. The article says that a way to increase supply capacity would more regular safety inspections by the FDA? Have you ever been in a plant when a regulatory group does an inspection? Rarely does that result in more output. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the inspections, of course we should, but only a government-type could actually argue that having more inspections would alleviate supply capacity. If you aren't going to argue logically, then yes, by all means exit the discussion.
:tothehand:
I totally agree with you here.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:51 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:14 am It's official, kalm has granted me the title of "quality investigative journalist". After all that huffawing and dodging, apparently he wasn't even reading my stuff. In one case, I said...

And now he posts the above that has this:

So not only is kalmie proving that I was correct, but I'm at the level of "a quality investigative journalist". Thanks, kalm, I appreciate the admiration. :thumb:
So to circle back…the shortage has a whole bunch to do with monopolistic practices and deregulation writ large (as I already clarified) enabling companies to manipulate agencies like the FDA at the expense of supply and ultimately consumers as the article you just quoted also implies.

At this point, I’m super concerned of a pending cherry shortage considering your efficiency at picking.

:lol:
This is where you continue to demonstrate that you "are so in love with your own ideas despite obvious examples and history." ;)
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:51 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:14 am

It's official, kalm has granted me the title of "quality investigative journalist". After all that huffawing and dodging, apparently he wasn't even reading my stuff. In one case, I said...



And now he posts the above that has this:



So not only is kalmie proving that I was correct, but I'm at the level of "a quality investigative journalist". Thanks, kalm, I appreciate the admiration. :thumb:
So to circle back…the shortage has a whole bunch to do with monopolistic practices and deregulation writ large (as I already clarified) enabling companies to manipulate agencies like the FDA at the expense of supply and ultimately consumers as the article you just quoted also implies.

At this point, I’m super concerned of a pending cherry shortage considering your efficiency at picking.

:lol:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:54 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:51 am
So to circle back…the shortage has a whole bunch to do with monopolistic practices and deregulation writ large (as I already clarified) enabling companies to manipulate agencies like the FDA at the expense of supply and ultimately consumers as the article you just quoted also implies.

At this point, I’m super concerned of a pending cherry shortage considering your efficiency at picking.

:lol:
This is where you continue to demonstrate that you "are so in love with your own ideas despite obvious examples and history." ;)
Feel free to jump in and tell us that monopolies, regulatory capture, and financial deregulation are not a problem.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:24 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:54 am
This is where you continue to demonstrate that you "are so in love with your own ideas despite obvious examples and history." ;)
Feel free to jump in and tell us that monopolies, regulatory capture, and financial deregulation are not a problem.
Did I say they weren't a problem?

The issue here is that regulation created the environment that limited competition. Blaming the situation on deregulation is a false flag operation frequently used by kalmunists. :coffee:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:32 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:24 am

Feel free to jump in and tell us that monopolies, regulatory capture, and financial deregulation are not a problem.
Did I say they weren't a problem?

The issue here is that regulation created the environment that limited competition. Blaming the situation on deregulation is a false flag operation frequently used by kalmunists. :coffee:
And again, using "deregulation" as the culprit here has to be one of the most ironic gaslightings that kalmie has perpetuated here. Heck, we're getting into conspiracy level hysteria from kalm now, and considering he's a bit of a loner in the Palouse on that wide open golf course, I'm worried that he's self-radicalizing.

This is perhaps one of the most regulated markets in the entire country - governments pretty much shape the market, government programs exist that dominate the market and have even further, strong ripple effects on the retail market, and the regulatory industry governing all of this is one of the better ones in government (the FDA) and they have an extremely limited number of places to inspect and police. This is a progressives utopia of how markets should be structured to maximize regulatory control (and strangely enough what they would want the prescription drug market to look like in an ideal state_. But, as I've pointed out (as well as kalmie's other expert on this topic), any hiccup in the supply and there's a big deal in terms of production output. And lo and behold, that's what happened. There isn't the sliver of deregulation that has caused any of the issue here. Absolutely none. Shame on you, kalmie. Stop reading extremist manifestos on this and come back to Earth please. :coffee:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:59 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:32 am

Did I say they weren't a problem?

The issue here is that regulation created the environment that limited competition. Blaming the situation on deregulation is a false flag operation frequently used by kalmunists. :coffee:
And again, using "deregulation" as the culprit here has to be one of the most ironic gaslightings that kalmie has perpetuated here. Heck, we're getting into conspiracy level hysteria from kalm now, and considering he's a bit of a loner in the Palouse on that wide open golf course, I'm worried that he's self-radicalizing.

This is perhaps one of the most regulated markets in the entire country - governments pretty much shape the market, government programs exist that dominate the market and have even further, strong ripple effects on the retail market, and the regulatory industry governing all of this is one of the better ones in government (the FDA) and they have an extremely limited number of places to inspect and police. This is a progressives utopia of how markets should be structured to maximize regulatory control (and strangely enough what they would want the prescription drug market to look like in an ideal state_. But, as I've pointed out (as well as kalmie's other expert on this topic), any hiccup in the supply and there's a big deal in terms of production output. And lo and behold, that's what happened. There isn't the sliver of deregulation that has caused any of the issue here. Absolutely none. Shame on you, kalmie. Stop reading extremist manifestos on this and come back to Earth please. :coffee:
Again…I addressed this and restated what I was driving at regarding deregulation twice on the previous page. Deregulation from a 30,000 foot view and you see the impacts the philosophy of deregulation brings.

(EG: thanks to deregulation under Reagan and Trump, tge economy hummed right along…full stop, no need to consider other impacts.)

At the very least it creates an environment for regulatory capture as noted in the Duyen piece.

You either skipped over that (twice, thrice?) or you just want really badly to prove me wrong.

This is why I was trying to be done with this in the first place.

I’ll let you have the last word.

Godspeed. :thumb:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:35 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:59 am

And again, using "deregulation" as the culprit here has to be one of the most ironic gaslightings that kalmie has perpetuated here. Heck, we're getting into conspiracy level hysteria from kalm now, and considering he's a bit of a loner in the Palouse on that wide open golf course, I'm worried that he's self-radicalizing.

This is perhaps one of the most regulated markets in the entire country - governments pretty much shape the market, government programs exist that dominate the market and have even further, strong ripple effects on the retail market, and the regulatory industry governing all of this is one of the better ones in government (the FDA) and they have an extremely limited number of places to inspect and police. This is a progressives utopia of how markets should be structured to maximize regulatory control (and strangely enough what they would want the prescription drug market to look like in an ideal state_. But, as I've pointed out (as well as kalmie's other expert on this topic), any hiccup in the supply and there's a big deal in terms of production output. And lo and behold, that's what happened. There isn't the sliver of deregulation that has caused any of the issue here. Absolutely none. Shame on you, kalmie. Stop reading extremist manifestos on this and come back to Earth please. :coffee:
Again…I addressed this and restated what I was driving at regarding deregulation twice on the previous page. Deregulation from a 30,000 foot view and you see the impacts the philosophy of deregulation brings.

(EG: thanks to deregulation under Reagan and Trump, tge economy hummed right along…full stop, no need to consider other impacts.)

At the very least it creates an environment for regulatory capture as noted in the Duyen piece.

You either skipped over that (twice, thrice?) or you just want really badly to prove me wrong.

This is why I was trying to be done with this in the first place.

I’ll let you have the last word.

Godspeed. :thumb:
So you blame deregulation, just as an overriding general philosophy, and ignore the details that are actually relevant to this particular market and industry. Like UNI said, that's pretty much a false flag tactic. You don't have anything tangible or factual to back it up, but of course it's there because you say it is.

And what regulatory capture are you even referring to in the Duyen piece? Did you even read it yourself? Other than the comment about the industry lobbying for wording in a position statement by the US on the status of breastfeeding in Third World nations, there's nothing else in the article to even bring up the idea of regulatory capture. I'm now worried you may not even know what that phrase means.

You could have saved us all a lot of trouble by just saying your initial post that this formula shortage was due to a deregulated market (when the exact opposite exists) was an uneducated, throw-it-against-the wall post and hope it sticks kind of post (that didn't stick at all), and just moved on. But I guess then we maybe wouldn't have seen the complete nonsense of your argument. Thanks for pulling the curtain back on your own charade. :thumb:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

GannonFan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:24 am
kalm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:35 pm

Again…I addressed this and restated what I was driving at regarding deregulation twice on the previous page. Deregulation from a 30,000 foot view and you see the impacts the philosophy of deregulation brings.

(EG: thanks to deregulation under Reagan and Trump, tge economy hummed right along…full stop, no need to consider other impacts.)

At the very least it creates an environment for regulatory capture as noted in the Duyen piece.

You either skipped over that (twice, thrice?) or you just want really badly to prove me wrong.

This is why I was trying to be done with this in the first place.

I’ll let you have the last word.

Godspeed. :thumb:
So you blame deregulation, just as an overriding general philosophy, and ignore the details that are actually relevant to this particular market and industry. Like UNI said, that's pretty much a false flag tactic. You don't have anything tangible or factual to back it up, but of course it's there because you say it is.

And what regulatory capture are you even referring to in the Duyen piece? Did you even read it yourself? Other than the comment about the industry lobbying for wording in a position statement by the US on the status of breastfeeding in Third World nations, there's nothing else in the article to even bring up the idea of regulatory capture. I'm now worried you may not even know what that phrase means.

You could have saved us all a lot of trouble by just saying your initial post that this formula shortage was due to a deregulated market (when the exact opposite exists) was an uneducated, throw-it-against-the wall post and hope it sticks kind of post (that didn't stick at all), and just moved on. But I guess then we maybe wouldn't have seen the complete nonsense of your argument. Thanks for pulling the curtain back on your own charade. :thumb:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by Ibanez »

This exchange has been wonderful to read....just a stellar performance on all sides. I see an Oscar nomination for Kalm and Gannon...easy wins, in my book.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by UNI88 »

Ibanez wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 9:10 am This exchange has been wonderful to read....just a stellar performance on all sides. I see an Oscar nomination for Kalm and Gannon...easy wins, in my book.
Kalm's performance reminded me of Jon Voight in The Champ. Unfortunately the piece was missing someone in the Ricky Schroeder role. Trip would have been good choice. :D
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by Winterborn »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:31 am
GannonFan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:24 am

So you blame deregulation, just as an overriding general philosophy, and ignore the details that are actually relevant to this particular market and industry. Like UNI said, that's pretty much a false flag tactic. You don't have anything tangible or factual to back it up, but of course it's there because you say it is.

And what regulatory capture are you even referring to in the Duyen piece? Did you even read it yourself? Other than the comment about the industry lobbying for wording in a position statement by the US on the status of breastfeeding in Third World nations, there's nothing else in the article to even bring up the idea of regulatory capture. I'm now worried you may not even know what that phrase means.

You could have saved us all a lot of trouble by just saying your initial post that this formula shortage was due to a deregulated market (when the exact opposite exists) was an uneducated, throw-it-against-the wall post and hope it sticks kind of post (that didn't stick at all), and just moved on. But I guess then we maybe wouldn't have seen the complete nonsense of your argument. Thanks for pulling the curtain back on your own charade. :thumb:
The emperor has no clothes… :lol:
It happens when one doesn't read the articles before posting. Kalm has been busted before for just reading the first paragraph and extrapolating from there.

Understandable when one gets excited and suffers from premature-fingering/typing. Though this whole exchange does highlight his impressive mental facilities and dedication to a cause. Now if he only had better judgement..... :ohno:
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 11:53 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:31 am

The emperor has no clothes… :lol:
It happens when one doesn't read the articles before posting. Kalm has been busted before for just reading the first paragraph and extrapolating from there.

Understandable when one gets excited and suffers from premature-fingering/typing. Though this whole exchange does highlight his impressive mental facilities and dedication to a cause. Now if he only had better judgement..... :ohno:
I’d reply but I’m a man of my word.

So thank you anyway.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
Winterborn wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 11:53 pm

It happens when one doesn't read the articles before posting. Kalm has been busted before for just reading the first paragraph and extrapolating from there.

Understandable when one gets excited and suffers from premature-fingering/typing. Though this whole exchange does highlight his impressive mental facilities and dedication to a cause. Now if he only had better judgement..... :ohno:
I’d reply but I’m a man of my word.

So thank you anyway.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

The net profit margin of S&P 500 companies, which include energy giants such as Chevron and Exxon Mobil, in the first quarter has been running at 12.3% based on estimates and earnings reported so far, according to FactSet. That’s down from a peak of 13.1% in the second quarter of last year, but above the pre-COVID-19 level of about 11%.

“Profit margins should be coming down,” Lindsay Owens, executive director of Groundwork Collaborative, a progressive economic policy research group, previously told USA TODAY.


Instead, she noted, “they’re actually growing.”

Here's a breakdown of the profits and earnings some of the world's oil giants made in the first three months of 2022:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ec ... 686761002/
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:41 am
The net profit margin of S&P 500 companies, which include energy giants such as Chevron and Exxon Mobil, in the first quarter has been running at 12.3% based on estimates and earnings reported so far, according to FactSet. That’s down from a peak of 13.1% in the second quarter of last year, but above the pre-COVID-19 level of about 11%.

“Profit margins should be coming down,” Lindsay Owens, executive director of Groundwork Collaborative, a progressive economic policy research group, previously told USA TODAY.


Instead, she noted, “they’re actually growing.”

Here's a breakdown of the profits and earnings some of the world's oil giants made in the first three months of 2022:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ec ... 686761002/
Funny, the business I work in we don't stay in markets where we don't make at least a 25% profit margin. If we were just making 12% we'd get out of the business. So when government decides to institute a wind-fall profit tax, how do they decide how much money everyone should make? :coffee:

Also, in the quote above from that progressive economic policy research group, why should "profit margins" be coming down? Isn't it possible that, given it was clear with the incoming administration that it would be a focus to eliminate fossil fuels, that these companies started to protect themselves from losing money and diversified elsewhere and also got rid of things that would cost them money? There's a reason why we don't really do much, if any, refining in this country anymore. The political headwinds have been obvious, so a decent company would've planned accordingly for that and protected their losses. Looking at profit margins only tells you if the business is managing their losses versus their revenues.
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Re: Bidenflation and Shortage thread

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:57 am
Funny, the business I work in we don't stay in markets where we don't make at least a 25% profit margin. If we were just making 12% we'd get out of the business. So when government decides to institute a wind-fall profit tax, how do they decide how much money everyone should make? :coffee:

Also, in the quote above from that progressive economic policy research group, why should "profit margins" be coming down? Isn't it possible that, given it was clear with the incoming administration that it would be a focus to eliminate fossil fuels, that these companies started to protect themselves from losing money and diversified elsewhere and also got rid of things that would cost them money? There's a reason why we don't really do much, if any, refining in this country anymore. The political headwinds have been obvious, so a decent company would've planned accordingly for that and protected their losses. Looking at profit margins only tells you if the business is managing their losses versus their revenues.
Agreed. So we really shouldn’t be complaining about gas prices. It’s all working how it’s supposed to. :thumb:
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