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SDHornet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:47 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:45 pm

All vaccines are considered experimental. This is not true – they have all been put through standard safety testing before being rolled out to the public. 

Both the United States and United Kingdom have authorized the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna mRNA vaccines for emergency use, while the former has also authorized shots by Johnson & Johnson; the latter by Oxford/AstraZeneca. 

Emergency use authorization (EUA) in the U.S. has been issued as a result of the severity of the pandemic. When the pandemic is over, the EUA will cease and vaccine manufacturers will need to apply for full U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval. No timeline on this has yet been given. The UK, meanwhile, has a similar mechanism.

All four vaccines given emergency authorization in the U.S. and UK have published results from the final phase three trials. 

They're experimental until they get the seal of approval from our flawless government.

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:55 pm

SDHornet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:47 pm

They're experimental until they get the seal of approval from our flawless government.

 COVID-19 vaccines authorized for use in the U.S. and UK are not experimental and have all completed animal and clinical trials. 

The Republican governor of Utah on Thursday decried “propaganda” spread against coronavirus vaccines, warning that those discouraging immunization are “killing people.”

“We have these — these talking heads who have gotten the vaccine and are telling other people not to get the vaccine,” Gov. Spencer Cox said in response to a reporter’s question about anti-vaccine rhetoric coming in large part from the political right. “That kind of stuff is just, it’s ridiculous. It’s dangerous, it’s damaging, and it’s killing people. I mean, it’s literally killing their supporters. And that makes no sense to me.”

Cox’s sharp words at a news conference came as some lawmakers and other prominent Republicans fan doubts about the coronavirus vaccines or speak about them with outright hostility, framing efforts to promote the shots as unwelcome incursions from big government.

houndawg wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:55 am

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:36 am
Well, if the Republicans don’t get vaccinated and start to die off in the StWronge variant of COVID, that would fit your worldview pretty well, wouldn’t it, StMengele?

And while we’re at it, Ubermann, the social usefulness of most graduate students is near zero, as evidenced by the WSJ story about those jobless Columbia MFA students who welch on their student loans while looking for that dream job in … filmmaking! Give me a skilled plumber or electrician with an IQ of 100 over a boy-genius software engineer any day.

I hope the good citizens of Tennessee don't fall for that "vaccinations are good" bullshit. Yall stick to your guns and don't let them pointy-head book-learning types bamboozle yall into taking the zombie chip flu shot. There's only one book yall need to read...

dbackjon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:19 pm you are too blind to see

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:54 am The booger eaters are threatening Republican votes.

The Republican governor of Utah on Thursday decried “propaganda” spread against coronavirus vaccines, warning that those discouraging immunization are “killing people.”

“We have these — these talking heads who have gotten the vaccine and are telling other people not to get the vaccine,” Gov. Spencer Cox said in response to a reporter’s question about anti-vaccine rhetoric coming in large part from the political right. “That kind of stuff is just, it’s ridiculous. It’s dangerous, it’s damaging, and it’s killing people. I mean, it’s literally killing their supporters. And that makes no sense to me.”

Cox’s sharp words at a news conference came as some lawmakers and other prominent Republicans fan doubts about the coronavirus vaccines or speak about them with outright hostility, framing efforts to promote the shots as unwelcome incursions from big government.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ropaganda/

UNI88 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:36 pm Utah's Republican governor said anti-vaccine rhetoric from some on the right is 'literally killing their supporters'

Cox said that the only way to address the rising cases is for more people to get vaccinated.

"The disease is far worse than the vaccine," Cox said. "We desperately need you to get vaccinated."

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:20 am

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:46 pm

That's fine. But understand that the "low information voter" factor is not in favor of the Democrats right now. The "ignorance factor" is clearly working in favor of the Republicans at this time in history. We have 10s of millions of people voting Republican based on world views that are totally divorced from reality. It's really bad.

A degree does not determine the amount of information a voter has about a candidate. For instance, farmers, degree or no degree, know more about farming than most of the PHD's in the world. Why wouldn't a farmer without a degree, that follows politics, not have the information about a candidate, compared to a PHD that could care less about political candidates? People that follow politics, degree or not, will have more information about the people they vote for, than any PHD that does not follow politics.

SDHornet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:44 pm

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:34 pm

The vaccines are not experimental. If you are calling the vaccines "experimental," you are in the "anti-vaxing" world. The experiments are the clinical trials. We had controlled experiments , the clinical trials, that validated the vaccines as safe and effective. That phase is over. As is always the case, officials are monitoring the situation with respect to the administration of vaccines. We have had hundreds of millions of doses. There has been some suggestion of some very low probability problems with the J&J vaccine. But there has been absolutely NO indication of a problem with the MRNA vaccines and all of the observational data on them generated since they went into wide usage are consistent with the results of the experimental phase.

And there has been no suggestion at all of forcibly injecting anybody.

The China Virus vaccine is. Stop trying to conflate it with those that are well past emergency status.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:20 am

A degree does not determine the amount of information a voter has about a candidate. For instance, farmers, degree or no degree, know more about farming than most of the PHD's in the world. Why wouldn't a farmer without a degree, that follows politics, not have the information about a candidate, compared to a PHD that could care less about political candidates? People that follow politics, degree or not, will have more information about the people they vote for, than any PHD that does not follow politics.

Do you really doubt that, if you were to devise any test of knowledge about what is going on in the world, that you would see a strong positive correlation between educational attainment and higher scores?

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:29 pm

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Do you really doubt that, if you were to devise any test of knowledge about what is going on in the world, that you would see a strong positive correlation between educational attainment and higher scores?

I disagree. This was a discussion about knowledge of the political candidates. What percent of PhDs vote?

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:10 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:29 pm

I disagree. This was a discussion about knowledge of the political candidates. What percent of PhDs vote?

I get what you’re both saying. Experts can be idiots outside their field but as a group, the higher educated tend to be more informed in general. Access to continuing education, reading skills, etc.

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:58 pm

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:10 pm
I get what you’re both saying. Experts can be idiots outside their field but as a group, the higher educated tend to be more informed in general. Access to continuing education, reading skills, etc.

I don't believe that either. If you lived in a rural farm community, you know that most of the men would meet at a local Cafe for breakfast every morning. You needed to read the newspaper to be in the morning conversation, national or local news. It was the social network of the day. Many of the PHD's that I've known,and I sit by 2 at Bison games, are no brighter on political events than anyone else. They have more time and money to spend on education of their favorite subject. There are many people that could have PHD's or even college degrees, if they had the time and money.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:20 am

A degree does not determine the amount of information a voter has about a candidate. For instance, farmers, degree or no degree, know more about farming than most of the PHD's in the world. Why wouldn't a farmer without a degree, that follows politics, not have the information about a candidate, compared to a PHD that could care less about political candidates? People that follow politics, degree or not, will have more information about the people they vote for, than any PHD that does not follow politics.

Do you really doubt that, if you were to devise any test of knowledge about what is going on in the world, that you would see a strong positive correlation between educational attainment and higher scores?

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:59 am

houndawg wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:55 am

I hope the good citizens of Tennessee don't fall for that "vaccinations are good" bullshit. Yall stick to your guns and don't let them pointy-head book-learning types bamboozle yall into taking the zombie chip flu shot. There's only one book yall need to read...

Another useless rant from Poundpud. Substance-free posts since October 14, 2008.

kalm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:10 pm

Gil Dobie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:29 pm

I disagree. This was a discussion about knowledge of the political candidates. What percent of PhDs vote?

I get what you’re both saying. Experts can be idiots outside their field but as a group, the higher educated tend to be more informed in general. Access to continuing education, reading skills, etc.

houndawg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:47 am

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:59 am
Another useless rant from Poundpud. Substance-free posts since October 14, 2008.

Thank you - it matters very deeply to me what a fratboy from Hardvard thinks and I appreciate you being moved enough to respond.

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:23 am

houndawg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:47 am

Thank you - it matters very deeply to me what a fratboy from Hardvard thinks and I appreciate you being moved enough to respond.

We have no frats. Too plebeian for us.

houndawg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:45 am

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:23 am

We have no frats. Too plebeian for us.

They have them. They just all agreed that you didn't need to know that.

Ibanez wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:19 am

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Do you really doubt that, if you were to devise any test of knowledge about what is going on in the world, that you would see a strong positive correlation between educational attainment and higher scores?

You're painting both groups with a broad brush with no facts. Just assumptions. I would assume that people with Ph.ds are highly motivated / driven individuals just based on that they've put in the work to earn those degrees. That doesn't make them Renaissance Men or Women.

I don't think it matters. You are so hung up on the idea that the more degree's a person has, the more intelligent they are. That isn't an absolute. I've met people with zero higher education who can speak fluently 2 or more languages, can speak eloquently about politics, literature, music, science and would smoke many "learned" people out of the water. I only know a few PH.ds and they are equally intelligent but it's hyper focused.

Yeah - my brother in law has his Ph.d - but it's in sustainability. He isn't very political and only knows what's going on in the world from the point that he hears/see's the news every so often.

Besides - we already know testing isn't an accurate measuring stick. I bombed my SAT (did pretty well on the ACT) - i'm not a dumb person and I work in a highly technical position with one of the worlds largest banks. Dummies don't get to play with bank technology. Giving a person a test with random questions about random subjects doesn't prove much, IMO.

JohnStOnge wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:30 pm

SDHornet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:44 pm

The China Virus vaccine is. Stop trying to conflate it with those that are well past emergency status.

No, the "China Virus" vaccines given emergency use authorization are not experimental The experiments are the clinical trials. They are past that phase. This is not debatable.

FYI, see https://www.reuters.com/article/factche ... SL1N2M70MW.

This thing of calling the vaccines that have received emergency use authorization "experimental" is one of the big talking points of the anti-vax world right now. And it is false. The experiments justified the emergency use authorizations. What's going on now is not controlled experimentation. It's monitoring what is happening to see if there are any indications of problems that the controlled experiments did not detect.

That's important because there's always the chance that very low probability adverse events can be missed during the experiments. They may show up when you start giving the vaccine to hundreds of millions of people. But that is always the case. And the experimental phase has been completed.

Ivytalk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:54 am

houndawg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:45 am

They have them. They just all agreed that you didn't need to know that.

We had final clubs. More exclusive and discriminating. Maybe they’d let you wait tables, if you took a bath every day.