Trans in Sports

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Trans in Sports

Post by UNI88 »

I thought about posting this in Other Sports but knew it would be political and really belonged here.

North Dakota Governor Vetoes Bill That Would Ban Trans Students From Playing Sports
"North Dakota today has a level playing field and fairness in girls' sports," Burgum said. "We have every confidence that they will continue to ensure a level playing field for the 27,000 students who participate in North Dakota high school sports."
My views on this are evolving. I do think it's important to respect the impact on the mental health of the potential trans athletes but I also think it's important to consider the potential impact on the athletes they will be competing against. This isn't happening in a vacuum and lots of people could be impacted and that impact should be considered.

Does a biological male competing in female sports have an advantage similar to taking steroids or HGH? Are there biological females that have an advantage simply from naturally having higher levels of testosterone than other females? Can you quantify, set a limit and test for a chemical advantage regardless of gender identity? I don't know. Are there aspects of this debate that I'm not considering? Almost certainly.

FYI - I viewed the article in incognito.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by Gil Dobie »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:06 pm I thought about posting this in Other Sports but knew it would be political and really belonged here.

North Dakota Governor Vetoes Bill That Would Ban Trans Students From Playing Sports
"North Dakota today has a level playing field and fairness in girls' sports," Burgum said. "We have every confidence that they will continue to ensure a level playing field for the 27,000 students who participate in North Dakota high school sports."
My views on this are evolving. I do think it's important to respect the impact on the mental health of the potential trans athletes but I also think it's important to consider the potential impact on the athletes they will be competing against. This isn't happening in a vacuum and lots of people could be impacted and that impact should be considered.

Does a biological male competing in female sports have an advantage similar to taking steroids or HGH? Are there biological females that have an advantage simply from naturally having higher levels of testosterone than other females? Can you quantify, set a limit and test for a chemical advantage regardless of gender identity? I don't know. Are there aspects of this debate that I'm not considering? Almost certainly.

FYI - I viewed the article in incognito.
If you are 7' 2", you can have a physical advantage in basketball.

I can see the day, maybe not in my lifetime, where there are required trans-gender sports.

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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by 89Hen »

Gil Dobie wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:10 pm
Gabrielle Ludwig of mission college
Gabriel?
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by JohnStOnge »

I think the "pure" solution, given our egalitarian posture on other things, to just have sports. No distinction between mens' and womens' sports. Of course we know what would happen if we did that. Females would be way disproportionately represented in many sports. You probably wouldn't have any women on the national soccer team. You probably wouldn't have any women in the NBA. If you had any in college basketball it would be very few. Same with track and field. You wouldn't have any women playing baseball at the highest levels. If you still had softball as a NCAA sport you'd have few if any women playing softball. So on and so forth.

You might still have pretty many women in gymnastics; especially in certain events. You'd have women in ice skating.

Anyway, I can understand having womens' sports as a separate level of competition in many areas in recognition of the fact that women are not as big, strong, or athletic as men on average and especially at the higher ends of the distributions. You do that in order to allow females the opportunity to experience some things. And if you do that I do not think you should let people who were born as biological males compete in that realm.

At the same time, I do not think we should act like mens' and womens' sports are equivalent. Like the big thing about the USA womens' soccer team. They play at a lower level of competition than the mens' team does. If they played the mens' team the mens' team would destroy them. This thing of acting like there is some injustice because they don't get treated the same is irrational. They're not the same. They are playing in a womens' arena specifically because it's recognized that women generally could not compete in the analogous mens' arena. The whole reason for their existence is that if we did not carve out a special thing for women they would not be good enough to be on the national team.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by UNI88 »

Gil Dobie wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:10 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:06 pm I thought about posting this in Other Sports but knew it would be political and really belonged here.

North Dakota Governor Vetoes Bill That Would Ban Trans Students From Playing Sports

My views on this are evolving. I do think it's important to respect the impact on the mental health of the potential trans athletes but I also think it's important to consider the potential impact on the athletes they will be competing against. This isn't happening in a vacuum and lots of people could be impacted and that impact should be considered.

Does a biological male competing in female sports have an advantage similar to taking steroids or HGH? Are there biological females that have an advantage simply from naturally having higher levels of testosterone than other females? Can you quantify, set a limit and test for a chemical advantage regardless of gender identity? I don't know. Are there aspects of this debate that I'm not considering? Almost certainly.

FYI - I viewed the article in incognito.
If you are 7' 2", you can have a physical advantage in basketball.

I can see the day, maybe not in my lifetime, where there are required trans-gender sports.

Gabrielle Ludwig of mission college
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Gabrielle's a good example of the potentially conflicting impacts.
- What is the impact of telling Gabrielle no?
- What is the impact to the person whose spot on the team Gabrielle takes?
- What is the impact to the players on the other teams who have to compete with a 6'8" biological male?
- Should a 50-something biological male be playing sports against biological females?

IMO younger people are more open-minded and less likely to care if Gabrielle is on their team or the other team.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by 89Hen »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:41 pm IMO younger people are more open-minded and less likely to care if Gabrielle is on their team or the other team.
Younger people are also stoopid.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by bobbythekidd »

89Hen wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:46 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:41 pm IMO younger people are more open-minded and less likely to care if Gabrielle is on their team or the other team.
Younger people are also stoopid.
Younger people can see the future, since they are going to be the ones establishing it.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by UNI88 »

bobbythekidd wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:40 pm
89Hen wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:46 pm
Younger people are also stoopid.
Younger people can see the future, since they are going to be the ones establishing it.
It's Bob Damnit!, Don't pay any attention to 89. He is to cs.com what Eeyore is to the 100 acre wood. ;)
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by BDKJMU »

Biological males should play on male sports teams.
Biological females should play on female sports teams.
The end.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by kalm »

bobbythekidd wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:40 pm
89Hen wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:46 pm

Younger people are also stoopid.
Younger people can see the future, since they are going to be the ones establishing it.
:nod:

I’m so ready to turn it all over to the chicks and younger folks and just go fishing and golfing...a lot.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by Gil Dobie »

kalm wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:48 pm
bobbythekidd wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:40 pm

Younger people can see the future, since they are going to be the ones establishing it.
:nod:

I’m so ready to turn it all over to the chicks and younger folks and just go fishing and golfing...a lot.
As long as the don't start any Logans Run crap, I'm with you.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by Ibanez »

BDKJMU wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:52 pm Biological males should play on male sports teams.
Biological females should play on female sports teams.
The end.
What about biological hermaphrodites?
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by Pwns »

If you were having a sports competition between trans women and trans men, is anyone here really going to take the trans men? Does anyone think you're more likely to see a female-born person in the NFL or NBA than some biological male dominate women's sports? I don't know how any thinking person couldn't at least question that transitioning doesn't eliminate male advantage (which is why we have separate sports for men and women in the first place).

But I think people are forgetting that in some sports there's something more important than fairness. In rugby there's real safety concerns (see World Rugby's trans women policy after a long review). And there's the trannies in MMA (see Fallon Fox versus Tamika Brents). Track and field or tennis is one thing but if you're more concerned about "tolerance" and "inclusion" than you are safety you've become so open-minded there's no brain matter left.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by 89Hen »

bobbythekidd wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:40 pm
89Hen wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:46 pm

Younger people are also stoopid.
Younger people can see the future, since they are going to be the ones establishing it.
:lol: They also like to ignore the past.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by Baldy »

I can't wait for the reactions when Bolivia or some other 3rd world country stacks its roster with a few trannys and beats the USWNT by a couple of TD's. That'll be hashtagalicious.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:14 am
bobbythekidd wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:40 pm

Younger people can see the future, since they are going to be the ones establishing it.
:lol: They also like to ignore the past.

So do many adults. :nod:
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am
89Hen wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:14 am

:lol: They also like to ignore the past.

So do many adults. :nod:
Very true.

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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:25 am
kalm wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am

So do many adults. :nod:
Very true.

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He said adults....what's AOChe have to do with that?
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by SuperHornet »

My main issue with this is that discussion around the issue tends to morph generalities into global absolutes, especially for those against the idea, and then when exceptions come up, they wine about "cherry picking." Of course, an average TRAINED guy is likely to dominate an average woman of equal training, assuming equal weight class, without rule-based handicaps, particularly in anything even approaching a "combat sport". (This argument, of course, ignores equestrian sports, where men and women have competed on a somewhat even playing field for decades, but the nay-sayers also want to ignore THAT.) What the nay-sayers tend to forget is training and innate ability are key factors. The whole argument is that ANY man will beat ANY woman one-on-one in ANY sport, and will beat them up in the process. My response: stick Sheldon Cooper (or someone like him) in the Octagon with "Rowdy" Ronda Rousey and see where that gets you; she's been trained, he hasn't, and she's in a higher weight class to boot. (That's where the cherry picking whine comes in.) Position variation may also come into play; for football and basketball in particular, if a woman is playing wide receiver, for example, bringing up the average defensive lineman as a disincentive to allowing her to play is, for me, a non-sequitur because she's not directly competing against him; she's competing directly against a DB, who's more likely to have her body type. The same is true in hoops, where a woman playing shooting guard shouldn't be told to "go home" simply because the other team has Klanq Fu playing center. She's not competing directly against him; she's competing against the other team's guards, who are generally much smaller. And if she DOES decide to "mix it up" with the bigger guys? So what? If she has the wherwithal of Dr. Jen Welter, who played for a men's indoor football team the last season of her playing career (the GM was Tim Brown of Notre Dame and Oakland Raiders fame) and as a career-long LBer was playing out of position at running back with no decent O'Line and got smeared in the backfield by the opposing LBer: "Is THAT all you got?", it's not going to be a problem.

Age is also a factor. Several years ago, a trans dude tried to compete in juco hoops against women here in Cali; the ladies largely wiped the court with him, both because he was something like 48, while they were still in their early-to-mid 20s. He also had zero talent. There was also that dummy in Brazil a few years back who was lazy in casing women at random to mug for their cell phones. One had him in a rear naked choke so fast it made his head spin; turns out that at the time, she was 10-2 MMA, 1-1 UFC.

Ultimately, though, I suppose I'm on the fence here. I don't want to see men using women's sports as a "cheap" way to athletic stardom, yet I have no problem with women making the choice to compete against men. I also have no problem with women playing what have traditionally been deemed "men's only" sports (like football) against other women. For me, the results would depend on merits; if a woman can do the job against other women (in a women's only league) or against men (in a men's or mixed league), then I have no problem letting them it. That may sound like talking out both sides of my mouth at once, but it's the only way I can see to recognize the talent that some women have rather than squashing it.
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by UNI88 »

SuperHornet wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:44 am My main issue with this is that discussion around the issue tends to morph generalities into global absolutes, especially for those against the idea, and then when exceptions come up, they wine about "cherry picking." Of course, an average TRAINED guy is likely to dominate an average woman of equal training, assuming equal weight class, without rule-based handicaps, particularly in anything even approaching a "combat sport". (This argument, of course, ignores equestrian sports, where men and women have competed on a somewhat even playing field for decades, but the nay-sayers also want to ignore THAT.) What the nay-sayers tend to forget is training and innate ability are key factors. The whole argument is that ANY man will beat ANY woman one-on-one in ANY sport, and will beat them up in the process. My response: stick Sheldon Cooper (or someone like him) in the Octagon with "Rowdy" Ronda Rousey and see where that gets you; she's been trained, he hasn't, and she's in a higher weight class to boot. (That's where the cherry picking whine comes in.) Position variation may also come into play; for football and basketball in particular, if a woman is playing wide receiver, for example, bringing up the average defensive lineman as a disincentive to allowing her to play is, for me, a non-sequitur because she's not directly competing against him; she's competing directly against a DB, who's more likely to have her body type. The same is true in hoops, where a woman playing shooting guard shouldn't be told to "go home" simply because the other team has Klanq Fu playing center. She's not competing directly against him; she's competing against the other team's guards, who are generally much smaller. And if she DOES decide to "mix it up" with the bigger guys? So what? If she has the wherwithal of Dr. Jen Welter, who played for a men's indoor football team the last season of her playing career (the GM was Tim Brown of Notre Dame and Oakland Raiders fame) and as a career-long LBer was playing out of position at running back with no decent O'Line and got smeared in the backfield by the opposing LBer: "Is THAT all you got?", it's not going to be a problem.

Age is also a factor. Several years ago, a trans dude tried to compete in juco hoops against women here in Cali; the ladies largely wiped the court with him, both because he was something like 48, while they were still in their early-to-mid 20s. He also had zero talent. There was also that dummy in Brazil a few years back who was lazy in casing women at random to mug for their cell phones. One had him in a rear naked choke so fast it made his head spin; turns out that at the time, she was 10-2 MMA, 1-1 UFC.

Ultimately, though, I suppose I'm on the fence here. I don't want to see men using women's sports as a "cheap" way to athletic stardom, yet I have no problem with women making the choice to compete against men. I also have no problem with women playing what have traditionally been deemed "men's only" sports (like football) against other women. For me, the results would depend on merits; if a woman can do the job against other women (in a women's only league) or against men (in a men's or mixed league), then I have no problem letting them it. That may sound like talking out both sides of my mouth at once, but it's the only way I can see to recognize the talent that some women have rather than squashing it.
Good post Horny.

I would add that I don't think being trans is an easy path so I don't think many men would be on it to use "women's sports as a "cheap" way to athletic stardom".
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by SuperHornet »

88: That's the problem with much of the anti-trans crowd. They ASSUME that's what the trans people are doing when they "invade" female sports. While I have issues with the entire idea of having your body cut like that, I at least realize that their participation in sports is much more nuanced than most anti-trans people think....

You know what the old saw about assuming....
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by 89Hen »

SuperHornet wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:53 am 88: That's the problem with much of the anti-trans crowd. They ASSUME that's what the trans people are doing when they "invade" female sports.
Who is the "anit-trans crowd"? Anyone who thinks it's idiotic to allow a man enter women's sport? That means a vast majority of people are anti-trans. :coffee:
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by SuperHornet »

Sorry for the shortened speech, 89. I meant "anti-trans-in-sports."
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by SuperHornet »

That said, 89, it's still an assumption that rules when banning the crossovers. That is, it's an assumption that a man will dominate no matter what.

I'll just posit myself, for example. Yes, I TRIED to play football at UOP and at Sac State. My talent got me nowhere there, and my ability to read a defense was even worse. If I were to try to take that to the Sirens (even if they were to ignore the gender separation rule), I would likely have a one-game career: the pick sixes I'd throw for lack of reading the defense would be enough to get me out of there, and that's even assuming the opposing D'Line didn't knock me out first, given the way my body is right now. But, again, that would be seen as mere "cherry picking." It would be something different entirely if the Boston Renegades were to pick up Tom Brady, but he wouldn't be interested, would he?
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Re: Trans in Sports

Post by 89Hen »

I'm not sure I understand what you're proposing. If a trans athlete is mediocre, they can play. But one that dominates should be banned?
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