Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

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Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

Great read. Some of the Founder’s thoughts on self governance and mob rule would not jive with today’s politics. Starting with the irony that many on the right believe Jan 6th was about freedom.
Like Madison, Lincoln warned that the mobs were being egged on by populist demagogues, “men of ambition and talents” who “continue to spring up amongst us,” seeking the “ratification of their ruling passion” by tearing down the government and the laws, rather than “supporting and maintaining” the edifice erected by the Founders. The only way for the American people to ensure that “support of the Constitution and the laws” remained the “political religion of the nation,” Lincoln concluded, was for them to reaffirm their commitment to personal as well as political self-government, to restrain their irrational passions and hatreds with the cool voice of reason..

Social media, of course, have exploded many of the cooling mechanisms that Madison assumed would ensure the rule of reason by slowing down the formation of violent mobs and impetuous factions, much as telegraphy did in Lincoln’s day. Madison assumed that mediating elites—such as representatives, senators, and a class of enlightened journalists he called the “literati”—would deliberate with their constituents and readers and persuade them to be governed by reason and fact rather than emotion and anger. But algorithms on social-media sites have a negative loop, recommending more and more extreme versions of related content that inflame passion over reason in precisely the way the Founders feared. As a result of algorithms’ radicalizing power, Madison’s dynamic has been reversed: Today, senators with previous Supreme Court clerkships pander to the irrational passions of their most conspiracy-theory-minded constituents.

Some Founders feared that ordinary citizens would never be able to govern their partisan passions with reason sufficiently to be capable of personal and political self-government. When John Adams read Adam Smith’s account in The Theory of Moral Sentiments of the “passion for distinction,” or the desire to be admired and approved of by others, he became despondent about whether leaders (including himself) could resist the lure of courting popularity with the mob. For that reason, Adams decried universal suffrage and came to conclude that all offices should be hereditary, writing to his son in 1795: “The Mob must ever be in the Power of Government—Government never in the Power of the Mob.” Nevertheless, Adams’s wife was more optimistic. In 1780, Abigail Adams wrote to her son John Quincy Adams, warning him to use his powers of reason to subdue what she called “the passion of anger.” “Behold your own Country, your Native Land suffering from the Effects of Lawless power and Malignant passions and learn betimes from your own observation and experience to govern and controul yourself,” she wrote. “Having once obtained this self government you will find a foundation laid for happiness to yourself and usefullness to Mankind.”


In the end, the American experiment was a wager that Abigail, rather than John Adams, was correct about the ability of citizens to govern themselves through reason rather than partisan passion. In his farewell address, warning that the “spirit of party” might undermine the republic, George Washington noted that “it agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions.” Washington’s solution to the spirit of party was to promote “virtue or morality” through “institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge,” including a national university that would lead to a more enlightened public by teaching history, constitutional principles, and the habits of deliberation. STEM education alone is not enough to save people from algorithmic rabbit holes and echo chambers that can culminate in mob violence. What’s needed is civic education about American history, digital literacy, skeptical deliberation, and emotional self-discipline. The Founders called this “virtue” and believed that it was the foundation of personal and political self-government and happiness.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... F618312%2F
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by andy7171 »

Too much words.
I'll assume it was a psuedo intellectual position piece, that makes the reader who disagrees look like a rube.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by 89Hen »

It's a water is wet piece and applies to both parties equally kalm.
When John Adams read Adam Smith’s account in The Theory of Moral Sentiments of the “passion for distinction,” or the desire to be admired and approved of by others, he became despondent about whether leaders (including himself) could resist the lure of courting popularity with the mob.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

you obviously don't understand January 6th.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

Pseudo-progressive politicians such as AOChe, Bernie and Warren are passion based as well. They obviously don't subscribe to the reason and science of economics.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:40 am It's a water is wet piece and applies to both parties equally kalm.
When John Adams read Adam Smith’s account in The Theory of Moral Sentiments of the “passion for distinction,” or the desire to be admired and approved of by others, he became despondent about whether leaders (including himself) could resist the lure of courting popularity with the mob.
It does. But in this case, one side stormed the capital and on that issue is on the wrong side of history.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:35 am Pseudo-progressive politicians such as AOChe, Bernie and Warren are passion based as well. They obviously don't subscribe to the reason and science of economics.
You should write a screed on that topic.

This is about applying reason versus violence to differences of opinion. :thumb:
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:42 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:35 am Pseudo-progressive politicians such as AOChe, Bernie and Warren are passion based as well. They obviously don't subscribe to the reason and science of economics.
You should write a screed on that topic.

This is about applying reason versus violence to differences of opinion. :thumb:
As 89 said, it applies to both parties. It's a cancer but shining the light on those spreading the cancer on the right while ignoring those spreading it on the left and vice versa is hypocritical and does not help. Maxine Waters isn't any more rational then MTG.

I oppose violence whether it occurred in Washington DC on January 6 or in in Portland and Seattle throughout much of 2020.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a great person and hero and he demonstrated that non-violence is a powerful tool that can achieve great things.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:47 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:42 am

You should write a screed on that topic.

This is about applying reason versus violence to differences of opinion. :thumb:
As 89 said, it applies to both parties. It's a cancer but shining the light on those spreading the cancer on the right while ignoring those spreading it on the left and vice versa is hypocritical and does not help. Maxine Waters isn't any more rational then MTG.

I oppose violence whether it occurred in Washington DC on January 6 or in in Portland and Seattle throughout much of 2020.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a great person and hero and he demonstrated that non-violence is a powerful tool that can achieve great things.
And so did Ghandi. But it's an epic false equivalency to compare the two parties in regards to what this article is driving at. Even the the comparison between Jan. 6th and last summer is weak.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:06 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:47 am

As 89 said, it applies to both parties. It's a cancer but shining the light on those spreading the cancer on the right while ignoring those spreading it on the left and vice versa is hypocritical and does not help. Maxine Waters isn't any more rational then MTG.

I oppose violence whether it occurred in Washington DC on January 6 or in in Portland and Seattle throughout much of 2020.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a great person and hero and he demonstrated that non-violence is a powerful tool that can achieve great things.
And so did Ghandi. But it's an epic false equivalency to compare the two parties in regards to what this article is driving at. Even the the comparison between Jan. 6th and last summer is weak.
I'm not going to get into a discussion whether there's any equivalency for Jan 6th, to me, that's a red herring in this discussion. I don't think there's anyway to try to argue that one side of the political spectrum is governed by passion and the other side by reason, which is what you seem to be arguing by comparing Jan 6th to anything else. There's no doubt that the substance of that article, that politics from passion can be destructive, is on full display across the breadth of our political spectrum today - left or right, progressive or conservative, blue or red, there's an abundance of passion that is ruling the day today on both sides. What we're missing, from both sides, is leadership to give those folks some reason to put aside their illogical passions. Instead, we get leaders that want to further it and make use of those passions for their own political survival. Not really leadership as opposed to self interested purposes.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:06 am

And so did Ghandi. But it's an epic false equivalency to compare the two parties in regards to what this article is driving at. Even the the comparison between Jan. 6th and last summer is weak.
I'm not going to get into a discussion whether there's any equivalency for Jan 6th, to me, that's a red herring in this discussion. I don't think there's anyway to try to argue that one side of the political spectrum is governed by passion and the other side by reason, which is what you seem to be arguing by comparing Jan 6th to anything else. There's no doubt that the substance of that article, that politics from passion can be destructive, is on full display across the breadth of our political spectrum today - left or right, progressive or conservative, blue or red, there's an abundance of passion that is ruling the day today on both sides. What we're missing, from both sides, is leadership to give those folks some reason to put aside their illogical passions. Instead, we get leaders that want to further it and make use of those passions for their own political survival. Not really leadership as opposed to self interested purposes.
I didn't frame the topic in Jan. 6th. That was the author's scope. But to satisfy the both sides do it equally crowd, why should there be sides anyway when it comes to reason?
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:37 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am

I'm not going to get into a discussion whether there's any equivalency for Jan 6th, to me, that's a red herring in this discussion. I don't think there's anyway to try to argue that one side of the political spectrum is governed by passion and the other side by reason, which is what you seem to be arguing by comparing Jan 6th to anything else. There's no doubt that the substance of that article, that politics from passion can be destructive, is on full display across the breadth of our political spectrum today - left or right, progressive or conservative, blue or red, there's an abundance of passion that is ruling the day today on both sides. What we're missing, from both sides, is leadership to give those folks some reason to put aside their illogical passions. Instead, we get leaders that want to further it and make use of those passions for their own political survival. Not really leadership as opposed to self interested purposes.
I didn't frame the topic in Jan. 6th. That was the author's scope. But to satisfy the both sides do it equally crowd, why should there be sides anyway when it comes to reason?
To win an argument. It's easy to dismiss an opponent by labeling them as "opposed to reason". It's like the "follow the science" mantra. That shouldn't have a side either but both sides of the political aisle opt to "follow the science" when it fits their particular position, and when it doesn't they conveniently ignore that mantra. Politics can make sides out of anything, especially if they can get a good meme or soundbite attached to it.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:37 am I didn't frame the topic in Jan. 6th.
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying but...
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:03 am Starting with the irony that many on the right believe Jan 6th was about freedom.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:44 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:37 am I didn't frame the topic in Jan. 6th.
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying but...
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:03 am Starting with the irony that many on the right believe Jan 6th was about freedom.
You don't. You'd have to read the article first to see where I got that from.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:40 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:37 am

I didn't frame the topic in Jan. 6th. That was the author's scope. But to satisfy the both sides do it equally crowd, why should there be sides anyway when it comes to reason?
To win an argument. It's easy to dismiss an opponent by labeling them as "opposed to reason". It's like the "follow the science" mantra. That shouldn't have a side either but both sides of the political aisle opt to "follow the science" when it fits their particular position, and when it doesn't they conveniently ignore that mantra. Politics can make sides out of anything, especially if they can get a good meme or soundbite attached to it.
Sometimes it is easy. Like watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in Jan. 6th. Perhaps their reason was misunderstood?














:rofl:
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by 89Hen »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:51 am You don't. You'd have to read the article first to see where I got that from.
I read what you posted. If I click on The Atlantic the GOP takes away my card.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:51 am You don't. You'd have to read the article first to see where I got that from.
I read what you posted. If I click on The Atlantic the GOP takes away my card.
I know.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:53 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:40 am

To win an argument. It's easy to dismiss an opponent by labeling them as "opposed to reason". It's like the "follow the science" mantra. That shouldn't have a side either but both sides of the political aisle opt to "follow the science" when it fits their particular position, and when it doesn't they conveniently ignore that mantra. Politics can make sides out of anything, especially if they can get a good meme or soundbite attached to it.
Sometimes it is easy. Like watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in Jan. 6th. Perhaps their reason was misunderstood?

:rofl:
you're getting closer....
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:53 am
GannonFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:40 am

To win an argument. It's easy to dismiss an opponent by labeling them as "opposed to reason". It's like the "follow the science" mantra. That shouldn't have a side either but both sides of the political aisle opt to "follow the science" when it fits their particular position, and when it doesn't they conveniently ignore that mantra. Politics can make sides out of anything, especially if they can get a good meme or soundbite attached to it.
Sometimes it is easy. Like watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in Jan. 6th. Perhaps their reason was misunderstood?

:rofl:
The same could be said for "watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in" the AnTiFa/BLM riots. You continue arguing that they're different while ignoring their similarities. You're showing your inherent bias toward those who participated in the Jan 6th riot.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:57 am
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:53 am

Sometimes it is easy. Like watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in Jan. 6th. Perhaps their reason was misunderstood?

:rofl:
The same could be said for "watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in" the AnTiFa/BLM riots. You continue arguing that they're different while ignoring their similarities. You're showing your inherent bias toward those who participated in the Jan 6th riot.

There’s been plenty of discussion showing their similarities. If you’d really like I can regurgitate them for you.

Violence, vandalism, and mob rule are bad mkay?

Still not the point of this thread or the article.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:30 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:57 am

The same could be said for "watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in" the AnTiFa/BLM riots. You continue arguing that they're different while ignoring their similarities. You're showing your inherent bias toward those who participated in the Jan 6th riot.

There’s been plenty of discussion showing their similarities. If you’d really like I can regurgitate them for you.

Violence, vandalism, and mob rule are bad mkay?

Still not the point of this thread or the article.
you view it as merely "violence and vandalism" and attempt to brush off any comparisons with the events of 1/6. Others with clearer heads realize it was and continues to be much bigger...they want the destruction of our current form of government. Plain and simple.

Sound familiar?
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by 89Hen »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:46 pm they want the destruction of our current form of government. Plain and simple.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

89Hen wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:48 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:46 pm they want the destruction of our current form of government. Plain and simple.
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something like that. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:30 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:57 am
The same could be said for "watching clips, seeing quotes, and reading articles on those who participated in" the AnTiFa/BLM riots. You continue arguing that they're different while ignoring their similarities. You're showing your inherent bias toward those who participated in the Jan 6th riot.

There’s been plenty of discussion showing their similarities. If you’d really like I can regurgitate them for you.

Violence, vandalism, and mob rule are bad mkay?

Still not the point of this thread or the article.
It's your thread, what is the point of the thread? It would appear that the point of the article was to criticize the Capital rioters, saying that the Founders, who conservatives venerate, would have been appalled. I don't disagree but I would add that IMO the Founders would have also been appalled but not surprised by the BLM/AnTiFa riots.

I'm not buying the argument that the Capital riots were orders of magnitude worse than the BLM/AnTiFa riots. They were an escalation, another step in the idiotic cycle of "violence, vandalism, and mob rule" that both extremes are engaging in. Articles like this are an attempt to focus blame on the alt-righters while deflecting from the ctl-lefters.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:19 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:30 pm

There’s been plenty of discussion showing their similarities. If you’d really like I can regurgitate them for you.

Violence, vandalism, and mob rule are bad mkay?

Still not the point of this thread or the article.
It's your thread, what is the point of the thread? It would appear that the point of the article was to criticize the Capital rioters, saying that the Founders, who conservatives venerate, would have been appalled. I don't disagree but I would add that IMO the Founders would have also been appalled but not surprised by the BLM/AnTiFa riots.

I'm not buying the argument that the Capital riots were orders of magnitude worse than the BLM/AnTiFa riots. They were an escalation, another step in the idiotic cycle of "violence, vandalism, and mob rule" that both extremes are engaging in. Articles like this are an attempt to focus blame on the alt-righters while deflecting from the ctl-lefters.
WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
I'm not certain they would have been appalled, given what our government has become. :suspicious: :suspicious:
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