Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by 89Hen »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:32 pm There is no defense of January 6. Full Stop.
Devil's advocate... What if the Senate was going to vote in a candidate that everyone agreed didn't actually win the EC? Would that be a reason to storm the castle?
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

89Hen wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:35 pm
Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:32 pm There is no defense of January 6, 2021. Full Stop.
Devil's advocate... What if the Senate was going to vote in a candidate that everyone agreed didn't actually win the EC? Would that be a reason to storm the castle?
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:35 pm
Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:32 pm There is no defense of January 6. Full Stop.
Devil's advocate... What if the Senate was going to vote in a candidate that everyone agreed didn't actually win the EC? Would that be a reason to storm the castle?
Is that when we become revolutionary again? Preventing a pretender to run the country?
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:06 pm
89Hen wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:35 pm

Devil's advocate... What if the Senate was going to vote in a candidate that everyone agreed didn't actually win the EC? Would that be a reason to storm the castle?
:o 89, your question left Kalm speechless ... :D
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:08 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:06 pm
:o 89, your question left Kalm speechless ... :D
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:56 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:08 pm
:o 89, your question left Kalm speechless ... :D
I studied under the best!
Has Pols ever been speechless? ;)
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:32 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:29 am

I see you don’t get it either.
Maybe you don't get it. There is no defense of January 6. Full Stop.
Depends on how you view January 6th. Trust me, it’s not as simple as “their guy lost” or “orange man convinced retards the election was stolen”....if you BELIEVE that, then you probably also believe Benghazi was caused by a video. :coffee:
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:29 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:56 pm

I studied under the best!
Has Pols ever been speechless? ;)
Good point. But I was referring to you tactic of FYP.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:13 pm
Ibanez wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:32 pm

Maybe you don't get it. There is no defense of January 6. Full Stop.
Depends on how you view January 6th. Trust me, it’s not as simple as “their guy lost” or “orange man convinced retards the election was stolen”....if you BELIEVE that, then you probably also believe Benghazi was caused by a video. :coffee:
I view January 6th as a group of upset people who turned a protest into a violent mob and attacked a seat of government. There's no defense for that. Is there a defense of their criminal behavior?


And no, Benghazi wasn't over a video. :ohno: :ohno:
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:20 am
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:07 am

Ahhh bullshit. :lol:

So we’re both attempting to whitewash then in your mind? Remember, I don’t have a side....except AMERICA! What if I told you both occurrences saddened me? That doesn’t make them the same. Starting with the causes of disenfranchisement and ending with the remedy.
They're not the same but there are many similarities and one contributed to the other. Only a partisan hack lessens or ignores the similarities and relationship.

Whitewash, deflect, take the focus away from ... use whatever words you want but the end goal of articles like that is to make the MAGAts look bad while sweeping the BLM/AnTiFa riots of 2020 under the rug.

They were both bad and to truly move forward we need to acknowledge that and hold participants and the leaders that supported both of them responsible.
Forgot to come back to this one. It’s an interesting post...especially how one contributes to the other. I think we can agree that the violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns, no? Strip either of those away and I’d say the differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different.

Regarding leadership, who from each side do we hold accountable?
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:05 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:13 pm

Depends on how you view January 6th. Trust me, it’s not as simple as “their guy lost” or “orange man convinced retards the election was stolen”....if you BELIEVE that, then you probably also believe Benghazi was caused by a video. :coffee:
I view BLM as a group of upset people who turned a protest into a violent mob and attacked several cities. There's no defense for that. Is there a defense of their criminal behavior?


And no, Benghazi wasn't over a video. :ohno: :ohno:
FYP for ‘88.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:44 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:05 am

I view BLM as a group of upset people who turned a protest into a violent mob and attacked several cities. There's no defense for that. Is there a defense of their criminal behavior?


And no, Benghazi wasn't over a video. :ohno: :ohno:
FYP for ‘88.
BLM/ANTIFA/MAGA protestors - it doesn't matter. You have the right to peacefully assemble. I'm fine with that. You do not have the right to break the law, become violent and endanger the lives and property of others.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:30 am
kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:44 am

FYP for ‘88.
BLM/ANTIFA/MAGA protestors - it doesn't matter. You have the right to peacefully assemble. I'm fine with that. You do not have the right to break the law, become violent and endanger the lives and property of others.
Agree. No justification for any of it.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:39 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:20 am
They're not the same but there are many similarities and one contributed to the other. Only a partisan hack lessens or ignores the similarities and relationship.

Whitewash, deflect, take the focus away from ... use whatever words you want but the end goal of articles like that is to make the MAGAts look bad while sweeping the BLM/AnTiFa riots of 2020 under the rug.

They were both bad and to truly move forward we need to acknowledge that and hold participants and the leaders that supported both of them responsible.
Forgot to come back to this one. It’s an interesting post...especially how one contributes to the other. I think we can agree that the violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns, no? Strip either of those away and I’d say the differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different.

Regarding leadership, who from each side do we hold accountable?
Violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns and both sets of riots posed them in their own way.

I disagree that the "differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different." Both sets of protesters felt/feel disenfranchised. One by society due to racism and the other by a government that doesn't give a sh!t about them and further fueled by the belief that the election was stolen from the person they believe stood up for them. Do I think that the people who thought Trump really cared about them were fools (or patriotic idiots)? Yes. But that doesn't mean their grievances are any less legitimate than BLM's.

Leaders should be held accountable in the court of law (not Congress). Do I think Trump and his cronies egged on his supporters knowing that violence could occur? Yes but I don't think they'll be able to prove it in court. I think Maxine Waters encouraged people to assault conservatives but will not be held accountable. I think the Multnomah County DA has a double-standard in how his office prosecutes criminal acts committed by liberal protesters vs conservative protesters. There were plenty of Democratic politicians who gave tacit approval to the BLM/AnTiFa riots.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:44 am
kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:39 am

Forgot to come back to this one. It’s an interesting post...especially how one contributes to the other. I think we can agree that the violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns, no? Strip either of those away and I’d say the differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different.

Regarding leadership, who from each side do we hold accountable?
Violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns and both sets of riots posed them in their own way.

I disagree that the "differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different." Both sets of protesters felt/feel disenfranchised. One by society due to racism and the other by a government that doesn't give a sh!t about them and further fueled by the belief that the election was stolen from the person they believe stood up for them. Do I think that the people who thought Trump really cared about them were fools (or patriotic idiots)? Yes. But that doesn't mean their grievances are any less legitimate than BLM's.

Leaders should be held accountable in the court of law (not Congress). Do I think Trump and his cronies egged on his supporters knowing that violence could occur? Yes but I don't think they'll be able to prove it in court. I think Maxine Waters encouraged people to assault conservatives but will not be held accountable. I think the Multnomah County DA has a double-standard in how his office prosecutes criminal acts committed by liberal protesters vs conservative protesters. There were plenty of Democratic politicians who gave tacit approval to the BLM/AnTiFa riots.
Both sets have claims to economic and political disenfranchisement. MAGA has significantly less of a claim IMO.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by Ibanez »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:44 am
kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:39 am

Forgot to come back to this one. It’s an interesting post...especially how one contributes to the other. I think we can agree that the violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns, no? Strip either of those away and I’d say the differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different.

Regarding leadership, who from each side do we hold accountable?
Violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns and both sets of riots posed them in their own way.

I disagree that the "differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different." Both sets of protesters felt/feel disenfranchised. One by society due to racism and the other by a government that doesn't give a sh!t about them and further fueled by the belief that the election was stolen from the person they believe stood up for them. Do I think that the people who thought Trump really cared about them were fools (or patriotic idiots)? Yes. But that doesn't mean their grievances are any less legitimate than BLM's.

Leaders should be held accountable in the court of law (not Congress). Do I think Trump and his cronies egged on his supporters knowing that violence could occur? Yes but I don't think they'll be able to prove it in court. I think Maxine Waters encouraged people to assault conservatives but will not be held accountable. I think the Multnomah County DA has a double-standard in how his office prosecutes criminal acts committed by liberal protesters vs conservative protesters. There were plenty of Democratic politicians who gave tacit approval to the BLM/AnTiFa riots.
Yup and none of them will be held accountable. :coffee:

I suspect the "Republican" defense of Jan 6 is something along the lines of these people thought the election was stolen and the country was being over run so they took it upon themselves to save America. They were patriots trying to defend America.

But then that begs the question - why did they believe the election was stolen? Who and/or what told them the election results were fraudulent?

Sadly - an independent audit wouldn't satisfy diehard MAGAs if/when it turns out that Biden was the duly elected POTUS.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:20 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:44 am
Violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns and both sets of riots posed them in their own way.

I disagree that the "differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different." Both sets of protesters felt/feel disenfranchised. One by society due to racism and the other by a government that doesn't give a sh!t about them and further fueled by the belief that the election was stolen from the person they believe stood up for them. Do I think that the people who thought Trump really cared about them were fools (or patriotic idiots)? Yes. But that doesn't mean their grievances are any less legitimate than BLM's.

Leaders should be held accountable in the court of law (not Congress). Do I think Trump and his cronies egged on his supporters knowing that violence could occur? Yes but I don't think they'll be able to prove it in court. I think Maxine Waters encouraged people to assault conservatives but will not be held accountable. I think the Multnomah County DA has a double-standard in how his office prosecutes criminal acts committed by liberal protesters vs conservative protesters. There were plenty of Democratic politicians who gave tacit approval to the BLM/AnTiFa riots.
Both sets have claims to economic and political disenfranchisement. MAGA has significantly less of a claim IMO.
You're moving the goal post. The BLM/AnTiFa riots came from protests about police brutality and racially motivated violence against black people not economic and political disenfranchisement (and I would agree with you that the MAGAts have less of a claim there). Too many black people are victims of police brutality or racially motivated violence but it's a fraction of the number of black people who are victims of black-on-black crime. Is it fair to ask if the BLM/AnTiFa protesters were misled? If their efforts should have been focused elsewhere?

I'm trying to look at the two sets of riots dispassionately and to fairly assess their impact and how this country can truly move forward from them. Moving forward by focusing on the Capital Riot and ignoring the BLM/AnTiFa Riots will just further disenfranchise the MAGAts and make them dig their heels in. They feel like victims but punishing them without addressing their concerns will make them actual victims and we'll be trading one set of victims for another. It is an illiberal and unprogressive approach.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:33 am
kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:20 am

Both sets have claims to economic and political disenfranchisement. MAGA has significantly less of a claim IMO.
You're moving the goal post. The BLM/AnTiFa riots came from protests about police brutality and racially motivated violence against black people not economic and political disenfranchisement (and I would agree with you that the MAGAts have less of a claim there). Too many black people are victims of police brutality or racially motivated violence but it's a fraction of the number of black people who are victims of black-on-black crime. Is it fair to ask if the BLM/AnTiFa protesters were misled? If their efforts should have been focused elsewhere?

I'm trying to look at the two sets of riots dispassionately and to fairly assess their impact and how this country can truly move forward from them. Moving forward by focusing on the Capital Riot and ignoring the BLM/AnTiFa Riots will just further disenfranchise the MAGAts and make them dig their heels in. They feel like victims but punishing them without addressing their concerns will make them actual victims and we'll be trading one set of victims for another. It is an illiberal and unprogressive approach.
I stand by the OP. Jan 6th was a concern of the founders. Painting it as a fight for freedom is ironic. That’s what you’re arguing with.

The equivalency with BLM was your insertion.

If you truly want I take a dispassionate approach, MAGA “feelings” shouldn’t count. They will only be truly welcomed back into the fold if they become honest and self reflective. They reject what’s happening out of a sense of entitlement. The world is changing at a rapid pace before their very eyes and that’s a bitter pill.

Ditch the racism, nationalism, and religiosity and they might even find fellow travelers on the left.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:35 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:30 am
BLM/ANTIFA/MAGA protestors - it doesn't matter. You have the right to peacefully assemble. I'm fine with that. You do not have the right to break the law, become violent and endanger the lives and property of others.
Agree. No justification for any of it.
Y’all would have been British sympathizers. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: “There’s no justification for any of it!”
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:49 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:44 am

Violence and threat to democracy are the real concerns and both sets of riots posed them in their own way.

I disagree that the "differences and legitimacy of grievances are clearly different." Both sets of protesters felt/feel disenfranchised. One by society due to racism and the other by a government that doesn't give a sh!t about them and further fueled by the belief that the election was stolen from the person they believe stood up for them. Do I think that the people who thought Trump really cared about them were fools (or patriotic idiots)? Yes. But that doesn't mean their grievances are any less legitimate than BLM's.

Leaders should be held accountable in the court of law (not Congress). Do I think Trump and his cronies egged on his supporters knowing that violence could occur? Yes but I don't think they'll be able to prove it in court. I think Maxine Waters encouraged people to assault conservatives but will not be held accountable. I think the Multnomah County DA has a double-standard in how his office prosecutes criminal acts committed by liberal protesters vs conservative protesters. There were plenty of Democratic politicians who gave tacit approval to the BLM/AnTiFa riots.
Yup and none of them will be held accountable. :coffee:

I suspect the "Republican" defense of Jan 6 is something along the lines of these people thought the election was stolen and the country was being over run so they took it upon themselves to save America. They were patriots trying to defend America.

But then that begs the question - why did they believe the election was stolen? Who and/or what told them the election results were fraudulent?

Sadly - an independent audit wouldn't satisfy diehard MAGAs if/when it turns out that Biden was the duly elected POTUS.
See? You now have proven in writing you don’t understand 1/6. THis is “Benghazi was caused by a video” level of understanding.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:16 am
kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:35 am

Agree. No justification for any of it.
Y’all would have been British sympathizers. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: “There’s no justification for any of it!”
Yeah...I know when I think of courage in the face of despotism, I think Ted Cruz or realtor Karen from Plano flying to a modern day Bunker Hill in her private jet.

:rofl:
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:16 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:33 am
You're moving the goal post. The BLM/AnTiFa riots came from protests about police brutality and racially motivated violence against black people not economic and political disenfranchisement (and I would agree with you that the MAGAts have less of a claim there). Too many black people are victims of police brutality or racially motivated violence but it's a fraction of the number of black people who are victims of black-on-black crime. Is it fair to ask if the BLM/AnTiFa protesters were misled? If their efforts should have been focused elsewhere?

I'm trying to look at the two sets of riots dispassionately and to fairly assess their impact and how this country can truly move forward from them. Moving forward by focusing on the Capital Riot and ignoring the BLM/AnTiFa Riots will just further disenfranchise the MAGAts and make them dig their heels in. They feel like victims but punishing them without addressing their concerns will make them actual victims and we'll be trading one set of victims for another. It is an illiberal and unprogressive approach.
I stand by the OP. Jan 6th was a concern of the founders. Painting it as a fight for freedom is ironic. That’s what you’re arguing with.

The equivalency with BLM was your insertion.

If you truly want I take a dispassionate approach, MAGA “feelings” shouldn’t count. They will only be truly welcomed back into the fold if they become honest and self reflective. They reject what’s happening out of a sense of entitlement. The world is changing at a rapid pace before their very eyes and that’s a bitter pill.

Ditch the racism, nationalism, and religiosity and they might even find fellow travelers on the left.
I don't think January 6 was fight for freedom but many of the people who were involved did and do.

I brought up the comparison to BLM but you brought your opinion that MAGAts have "significantly less of a claim" "to economic and political disenfranchisement." The BLM/AnTiFa protests and subsequent riots weren't about economic and political disenfranchisement they were about police brutality and racial violence toward African-Americans.

If the feelings of MAGAts shouldn't count then why should the feelings of African-Americans? They should just accept their lot in life.

I agree that the MAGAts should be honest and self reflective but so should the BLM/AnTiFa rioters and their enablers. You keep trying to pin all of this on the MAGAts and make it their responsibility to change while glossing over what happened last year and letting those who participated in it or enabled it off the hook.

Both sides need to be honest and self reflective if we're going to move forward. A true liberal would see that.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:19 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:49 am

Yup and none of them will be held accountable. :coffee:

I suspect the "Republican" defense of Jan 6 is something along the lines of these people thought the election was stolen and the country was being over run so they took it upon themselves to save America. They were patriots trying to defend America.

But then that begs the question - why did they believe the election was stolen? Who and/or what told them the election results were fraudulent?

Sadly - an independent audit wouldn't satisfy diehard MAGAs if/when it turns out that Biden was the duly elected POTUS.
See? You now have proven in writing you don’t understand 1/6. THis is “Benghazi was caused by a video” level of understanding.
Condescending prick says why? :roll:

That's my understanding based off watching it unfold live on TV. Why don't you explain it to us that have a different opinion.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:16 am
kalm wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:35 am

Agree. No justification for any of it.
Y’all would have been British sympathizers. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: “There’s no justification for any of it!”
You'd be wrong.
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Re: Reason vs. Passion Based Emotions

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:22 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:19 am

See? You now have proven in writing you don’t understand 1/6. THis is “Benghazi was caused by a video” level of understanding.
Condescending prick says why? :roll:

That's my understanding based off watching it unfold live on TV. Why don't you explain it to us that have a different opinion.
You’re thinking much too simplistically. It didn’t “unfold” on live TV. That was merely the end result (rightly or wrongly). The roots were sown four years earlier and over the past four years (and not by Trump). Think critically, Mark. It’ll come to you.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
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