The rugged individualism vs. community thread

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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:39 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:19 pm

I agree that overall what we have and what our governments provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Governments is plural because local, state and federal government are separate and IMO the most incredible services we get are from out state and local governments. The parts of the country that have the most problems seem to be those with less effective or more overwhelmed local governments. I would also add the caveat that the bigger the federal government gets and the more it tries to do the less efficient, effective and incredible it becomes.
Well our federal government was smaller the last few years and I'd probably not agree with that one part due to the incompetence we saw during that part of it all but outside of that I'd say I'm in your camp on all but the last sentence...and even there if it were filled with competence I could probably agree there too as long as it is the right size for what needs doing. What that should be is where we all probably part company. :mrgreen:

I just don't think gutting it down to drown it in the bathtub is the correct approach.
Agreed. It should be a teacup. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :D
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by Winterborn »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:19 pm
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:47 pm In spite of all the bullshit I've heard over the years and even taken part in about how bad government is and how badly they do things I've come to realize that is pretty much all bullshit and there is waste and ridiculous shit but overall what we have and what our government helps us provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Not perfect, needs improvement, but at any time we can go out and move, and pretty much do whatever the fuck we want to do because we've all chipped in to varying degrees to have a nice place to spend our far too short fucking lives.
I agree that overall what we have and what our governments provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Governments is plural because local, state and federal government are separate and IMO the most incredible services we get are from out state and local governments. The parts of the country that have the most problems seem to be those with less effective or more overwhelmed local governments. I would also add the caveat that the bigger the federal government gets and the more it tries to do the less efficient, effective and incredible it becomes.
Exactly. :nod:

The general public knows next to nothing of what is really going on in DC and the media keeps it that way. :twocents: Alot of stuff happens that never makes the news or the general public never finds out about it as they do not do a FOI or they word their request wrong and information is left out. The "niceties" we have are pretty much a veneer and in many ways act like bread to the circus so we do not look too deep of what is going on behind the scenes and upset what is going on. (Speaking from experience, as I have been on both side of the fence and pretty much pull a '88 currently and straddle it.)

The next 4 years are going to be a continuation of the expansion of the Government(that has for the most part rapidly speed up since the early 90's) and from the outside are going to look for the most part rosy, but behind the scenes the growth has hit warp factor 1.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:37 pm This is such flawed logic as to be almost comical. THIS is his “proof of public sector efficiency”? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The efficiency of public-sector programmes can be seen all the time. An American family with an annual income of $52,000 per year pays approximately $16,000 a year in federal, state, and local taxes. In exchange, that family gets roads, public schools, environmental protection, national security, fire, and police. Try assembling that as a package of private services and see what it costs.......




Of that $16,000 about $4,000 goes to oil subsidies and $36 to food stamps.....yeah, its almost comical :coffee:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

Winterborn wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:18 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:19 pm

I agree that overall what we have and what our governments provide for our communities is a pretty incredible feat. Governments is plural because local, state and federal government are separate and IMO the most incredible services we get are from out state and local governments. The parts of the country that have the most problems seem to be those with less effective or more overwhelmed local governments. I would also add the caveat that the bigger the federal government gets and the more it tries to do the less efficient, effective and incredible it becomes.
Exactly. :nod:

The general public knows next to nothing of what is really going on in DC and the media keeps it that way. :twocents: Alot of stuff happens that never makes the news or the general public never finds out about it as they do not do a FOI or they word their request wrong and information is left out. The "niceties" we have are pretty much a veneer and in many ways act like bread to the circus so we do not look too deep of what is going on behind the scenes and upset what is going on. (Speaking from experience, as I have been on both side of the fence and pretty much pull a '88 currently and straddle it.)

The next 4 years are going to be a continuation of the expansion of the Government(that has for the most part rapidly speed up since the early 90's) and from the outside are going to look for the most part rosy, but behind the scenes the growth has hit warp factor 1.
Totally agree with this post. I’m personally experiencing it on a local level. The political relationships are incestuous and the disregard for the public good is mind numbing. Each aspiring politician and bureaucrat plays lord over their own little fiefdom. Their worth is not based on providing service, it’s how many committees and boards you sit on and who you have lunch with.

The increase in government action is inevitable and in some instances necessary based on deferment of upkeep as well as the vacuum created by a reduction of independently owned businesses.

Want to start a ruckus? Create a non-corporate affiliated business lobby with some real power. The biggest threat of fascism right now is the consolidation of power shared by government and big business.

(Yes...kalm as his libertarian streak too.)
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

Lol. “Reduction of independently owned businesses”. Gee, wonder how THAT happened?

How can you make a post like THAT ^^^^ and yet still clamor for MORE government?
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:06 pm Lol. “Reduction of independently owned businesses”. Gee, wonder how THAT happened?

How can you make a post like THAT ^^^^ and yet still clamor for MORE government?
I’m not “clamoring” for more government, I’m just predicting it. :coffee:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:15 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:06 pm Lol. “Reduction of independently owned businesses”. Gee, wonder how THAT happened?

How can you make a post like THAT ^^^^ and yet still clamor for MORE government?
I’m not “clamoring” for more government, I’m just predicting it. :coffee:
Faux centrism aside, you clamor for it.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:17 pm
kalm wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:15 pm

I’m not “clamoring” for more government, I’m just predicting it. :coffee:
Faux centrism aside, you clamor for it.
No. I’m just trying to help you think. I think government should be smaller, more efficient, and less corrupt. Very little will change until a serious cap is placed on donations. But that’s a deep end of the pool solution while most sit around and uselessly bitch in the kiddie end.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

Here’s another tidbit from Galloway. Not anti capitalism...at all. It’s an interesting take on kicking the social safety net/pension plan cans down the road at the expense of future workers in order to protect the oligarchs...

“America is a terrible place to be stupid.”

That’s why he immigrated here. A pillar of capitalism is that you can’t reward the winners without punishing the losers. I worry our government has been co-opted by the wealthy and is focused on protecting the previous generation of winners, even if it means reducing future generations’ ability to win. Aren’t we borrowing against our children’s prosperity to protect the wealth of the top ten — if not one — percent?


In Depression-era Scotland, my dad was physically abused by his father. His mother spent the money he sent home from the Royal Navy on whiskey and cigarettes. He took a huge risk and came to America. My mom took a similar risk, leaving her two youngest siblings in an orphanage (her mom and dad had both died in their early fifties), and bought a ticket on a steamship. She had a small suitcase and 110 quid that she hid in both socks. Why? Because they wanted to work their asses off and be rewarded for the risks they were willing to take. This is capitalism: A beacon of hope for people who are smart, hard working, and comfortable with risk, and the promise of a correspondingly greater share of the spoils.

However, this is no more. Modern-day “capitalism” in America means flattening the risk curve for people who already have money by borrowing from future generations with debt-fueled bailouts for companies. We have consciously decided to reduce the downside for the wealthy, thereby limiting the upside for future generations
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:39 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:17 pm

Faux centrism aside, you clamor for it.
No. I’m just trying to help you think. I think government should be smaller, more efficient, and less corrupt. Very little will change until a serious cap is placed on donations. But that’s a deep end of the pool solution while most sit around and uselessly bitch in the kiddie end.
How can one be for “smaller, more efficient, less corrupt government” and simultaneously vote Dem? :suspicious: :suspicious:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:20 am Here’s another tidbit from Galloway. Not anti capitalism...at all. It’s an interesting take on kicking the social safety net/pension plan cans down the road at the expense of future workers in order to protect the oligarchs...

“America is a terrible place to be stupid.”

That’s why he immigrated here. A pillar of capitalism is that you can’t reward the winners without punishing the losers. I worry our government has been co-opted by the wealthy and is focused on protecting the previous generation of winners, even if it means reducing future generations’ ability to win. Aren’t we borrowing against our children’s prosperity to protect the wealth of the top ten — if not one — percent?


In Depression-era Scotland, my dad was physically abused by his father. His mother spent the money he sent home from the Royal Navy on whiskey and cigarettes. He took a huge risk and came to America. My mom took a similar risk, leaving her two youngest siblings in an orphanage (her mom and dad had both died in their early fifties), and bought a ticket on a steamship. She had a small suitcase and 110 quid that she hid in both socks. Why? Because they wanted to work their asses off and be rewarded for the risks they were willing to take. This is capitalism: A beacon of hope for people who are smart, hard working, and comfortable with risk, and the promise of a correspondingly greater share of the spoils.

However, this is no more. Modern-day “capitalism” in America means flattening the risk curve for people who already have money by borrowing from future generations with debt-fueled bailouts for companies. We have consciously decided to reduce the downside for the wealthy, thereby limiting the upside for future generations
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Or, it’s just a function of math. :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:20 am Here’s another tidbit from Galloway. Not anti capitalism...at all. It’s an interesting take on kicking the social safety net/pension plan cans down the road at the expense of future workers in order to protect the oligarchs...

“America is a terrible place to be stupid.”

That’s why he immigrated here. A pillar of capitalism is that you can’t reward the winners without punishing the losers. I worry our government has been co-opted by the wealthy and is focused on protecting the previous generation of winners, even if it means reducing future generations’ ability to win. Aren’t we borrowing against our children’s prosperity to protect the wealth of the top ten — if not one — percent?

In Depression-era Scotland, my dad was physically abused by his father. His mother spent the money he sent home from the Royal Navy on whiskey and cigarettes. He took a huge risk and came to America. My mom took a similar risk, leaving her two youngest siblings in an orphanage (her mom and dad had both died in their early fifties), and bought a ticket on a steamship. She had a small suitcase and 110 quid that she hid in both socks. Why? Because they wanted to work their asses off and be rewarded for the risks they were willing to take. This is capitalism: A beacon of hope for people who are smart, hard working, and comfortable with risk, and the promise of a correspondingly greater share of the spoils.

However, this is no more. Modern-day “capitalism” in America means flattening the risk curve for people who already have money by borrowing from future generations with debt-fueled bailouts for companies. We have consciously decided to reduce the downside for the wealthy, thereby limiting the upside for future generations
Aren't we also flattening the risk curve for the poor with stimulus payments, student loan forgiveness, etc. We're really squeezing the middle.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:00 pm
kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:20 am Here’s another tidbit from Galloway. Not anti capitalism...at all. It’s an interesting take on kicking the social safety net/pension plan cans down the road at the expense of future workers in order to protect the oligarchs...


Aren't we also flattening the risk curve for the poor with stimulus payments, student loan forgiveness, etc. We're really squeezing the middle.
Yes.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:58 am
kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:39 am

No. I’m just trying to help you think. I think government should be smaller, more efficient, and less corrupt. Very little will change until a serious cap is placed on donations. But that’s a deep end of the pool solution while most sit around and uselessly bitch in the kiddie end.
How can one be for “smaller, more efficient, less corrupt government” and simultaneously vote Dem? :suspicious: :suspicious:
Me? I vote for candidates. Not party.

Democrats...well how have the Republicans faired at reducing the size of government?

Hint: the Trump administration spent more than the previous administration...
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:27 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:58 am

How can one be for “smaller, more efficient, less corrupt government” and simultaneously vote Dem? :suspicious: :suspicious:
Me? I vote for candidates. Not party.

Democrats...well how have the Republicans faired at reducing the size of government?

Hint: the Trump administration spent more than the previous administration...
$$ spent <> size of government. Especially when stimulus packages are involved. I’m talking about intrusion. Control. Overbearing. Invasiveness. Destruction of rights.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:27 pm
kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:27 pm

Me? I vote for candidates. Not party.

Democrats...well how have the Republicans faired at reducing the size of government?

Hint: the Trump administration spent more than the previous administration...
$$ spent <> size of government. Especially when stimulus packages are involved. I’m talking about intrusion. Control. Overbearing. Invasiveness. Destruction of rights.
It was trending that way before Covid. Hard to disagree on the rest but polluting industries and monopolies alone are two reasons you need some level of regulation. And for a nation of this size that unfortunately requires a large government.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:35 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:27 pm

$$ spent <> size of government. Especially when stimulus packages are involved. I’m talking about intrusion. Control. Overbearing. Invasiveness. Destruction of rights.
It was trending that way before Covid. Hard to disagree on the rest but polluting industries and monopolies alone are two reasons you need some level of regulation. And for a nation of this size that unfortunately requires a large government.
Some level, yes. Do we require 5x the government we had in 2000? Because (sorry, based on $$), that’s what we have.

Government’s mindset is threefold:

Every year we need more regulation that we had the year before.
Every year we need more money than we spent the year before.
Every year we need more control than we had the year before.

All are wrong. And dangerous.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:01 pm
kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:35 pm

It was trending that way before Covid. Hard to disagree on the rest but polluting industries and monopolies alone are two reasons you need some level of regulation. And for a nation of this size that unfortunately requires a large government.
Some level, yes. Do we require 5x the government we had in 2000? Because (sorry, based on $$), that’s what we have.

Government’s mindset is threefold:

Every year we need more regulation that we had the year before.
Every year we need more money than we spent the year before.
Every year we need more control than we had the year before.

All are wrong. And dangerous.
So we’re back to your original question. Why vote D?

Trump spent more than Obama. Voted on by Republicans in Congress.
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:14 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:01 pm

Some level, yes. Do we require 5x the government we had in 2000? Because (sorry, based on $$), that’s what we have.

Government’s mindset is threefold:

Every year we need more regulation that we had the year before.
Every year we need more money than we spent the year before.
Every year we need more control than we had the year before.

All are wrong. And dangerous.
So we’re back to your original question. Why vote D?

Trump spent more than Obama. Voted on by Republicans in Congress.
7 cabinet positions created since 1960
Six FOLD increase in pages in the Federal Register (which tracks all regulations) since 1960
# of Federal Employees/Contractors up from 5 million to 7.5 million since 1990
DHS - 230,000 employees, 52B budget
CFPB - Just ANOTHER bank regulator created under Obama’s watch (to go along with the OCC, FDIC, NCUA, FRB and a couple others).
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Re: The rugged individualism vs. community thread

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:34 pm
kalm wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:14 pm

So we’re back to your original question. Why vote D?

Trump spent more than Obama. Voted on by Republicans in Congress.
7 cabinet positions created since 1960
Six FOLD increase in pages in the Federal Register (which tracks all regulations) since 1960
# of Federal Employees/Contractors up from 5 million to 7.5 million since 1990
DHS - 230,000 employees, 52B budget
CFPB - Just ANOTHER bank regulator created under Obama’s watch (to go along with the OCC, FDIC, NCUA, FRB and a couple others).
So all of that was done by D’s? And we’re now back to size by numbers versus $’s?

:lol:
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