The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

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Re: The Official

Post by AZGrizFan »

CID1990 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:41 pm The wall was a small piece of the puzzle But it was hardly the most important piece. With lessened migration, the wall would be the last bulwark against the truly hard cases.

The most important pieces were the bilat agreements we made with Mexico, El Sal, Honduras, and Guatemala which compelled them to enforce their own border controls and also first safe 3rd country rules. Ironically, the carrot we used to get them to cooperate with us was with trade and aid (precisely the things that reduce pressure to migrate)

Now, because Trump, the current admin has scrapped ALL of it. That, combined with campaign rhetoric this past fall, is the driver behind the current rush on the border.

Blaming the previous administration for this is a bold faced lie.


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Re: The Official

Post by UNI88 »

CID1990 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:41 pm The wall was a small piece of the puzzle But it was hardly the most important piece. With lessened migration, the wall would be the last bulwark against the truly hard cases.

The most important pieces were the bilat agreements we made with Mexico, El Sal, Honduras, and Guatemala which compelled them to enforce their own border controls and also first safe 3rd country rules. Ironically, the carrot we used to get them to cooperate with us was with trade and aid (precisely the things that reduce pressure to migrate)

Now, because Trump, the current admin has scrapped ALL of it. That, combined with campaign rhetoric this past fall, is the driver behind the current rush on the border.

Blaming the previous administration for this is a bold faced lie.

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Question for CID or anyone - how much do you think the possibility of future amnesty increases undocumented/illegal immigration?
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Ibanez wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:08 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:03 am

they all inherited a problem. Trump was the first one to legitimately try and fix it. And he was summarily ignored, and STILL made a shitload of progress....progress that's been pissed away in the first 100 days of Biden's "presidency".
We'll have to disagree. Building a wall doesn't fix the problem. It's a bandaid. What did he do to make it so those immigrants didn't WANT to leave their home countries?
Da fuq :suspicious: That’s not Trump’s (or any POTUS’es) job. Their job is to keep those people out..

And Trump’s admin had started to fix the problem with things that worked (ending Catch and Release, Remain in Mexico, getting Mexico to do more to police their own borders)). Woukd have been able to do more but was restrained by bad law (ex Flores decision)..And Biden threw that all out end January (after telling illegals and so called asylum seekers during the fall campaign to come to the US) because Trump did it. And the surge started in Feb. Gee, what a coonincidence..
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:08 am

We'll have to disagree. Building a wall doesn't fix the problem. It's a bandaid. What did he do to make it so those immigrants didn't WANT to leave their home countries?
Why is that OUR responsibility? We have to fix EVERY country? We can barely deal with our own.

And how about just starting with pulling in the fucking welcome mat that the Dems put out every time they're in office?
Sorry, I should have read agead before responding, as you beat me to it.
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Ibanez wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:54 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 am

Why is that OUR responsibility? We have to fix EVERY country? We can barely deal with our own.

And how about just starting with pulling in the fucking welcome mat that the Dems put out every time they're in office?
I didn't say we have to fix every country - lord knows we can't fix our own. But if you think just throwing up a wall is going to solve a problem then you're just being naïve.
Not by itself, but as a layered aporoach (physical barriers like walls/fences), human barriers (BP, CBP, Nat Guard), electronic (sensors, cameras), air (drones, cessnas, choppers). Then ending stupid policies (ex Catch and Release, Flores), installing smart policies (ex Remain in Mexico, getting Mexico to police their southern borders, etc)
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by BDKJMU »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:53 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:54 am

I didn't say we have to fix every country - lord knows we can't fix our own. But if you think just throwing up a wall is going to solve a problem then you're just being naïve.
Not just a wall. I'd put TWO walls, 50' apart, and landmine the fuck out of the middle. Then I'd put troops every 100 yards to take out any motherfucker who made it through. Then I'd fix the immigration system so it didn't take 15 fucking years to get citizenship.

Why do we guard ports of entry like they're world heritage sites and leave the rest of the border wide open?
That would work..
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by CID1990 »

UNI88 wrote:
CID1990 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:41 pm The wall was a small piece of the puzzle But it was hardly the most important piece. With lessened migration, the wall would be the last bulwark against the truly hard cases.

The most important pieces were the bilat agreements we made with Mexico, El Sal, Honduras, and Guatemala which compelled them to enforce their own border controls and also first safe 3rd country rules. Ironically, the carrot we used to get them to cooperate with us was with trade and aid (precisely the things that reduce pressure to migrate)

Now, because Trump, the current admin has scrapped ALL of it. That, combined with campaign rhetoric this past fall, is the driver behind the current rush on the border.

Blaming the previous administration for this is a bold faced lie.

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Question for CID or anyone - how much do you think the possibility of future amnesty increases undocumented/illegal immigration?
It is a lesser, long term driver of illegal migration

But the more immediate causes, which prompt these border surges, is Democrat Party rhetoric coupled with an actual Dem in the White House.

Human traffickers don’t have to advertise under these conditions. They only have to say that if you go now, they won’t deport you, they will get rid of ICE, and then you can stay until the next amnesty as long as you don’t kill anybody while you are there.

CNN and MSNBC do all their convincing for them, aided by the Dem admin.

The promise of amnesty had an effect, but less than the immediate idea of that if you cross the border and are in an un-deportable status (have kids, not a mass murderer) then you can stay indefinitely. You don’t NEED amnesty.

Deportations this month are down 75% (fact check me somebody.. please)... that’s a de facto abolishment of immigration enforcement.


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Re: The Official

Post by AZGrizFan »

CID1990 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:14 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Question for CID or anyone - how much do you think the possibility of future amnesty increases undocumented/illegal immigration?
It is a lesser, long term driver of illegal migration

But the more immediate causes, which prompt these border surges, is Democrat Party rhetoric coupled with an actual Dem in the White House.

Human traffickers don’t have to advertise under these conditions. They only have to say that if you go now, they won’t deport you, they will get rid of ICE, and then you can stay until the next amnesty as long as you don’t kill anybody while you are there.

CNN and MSNBC do all their convincing for them, aided by the Dem admin.

The promise of amnesty had an effect, but less than the immediate idea of that if you cross the border and are in an un-deportable status (have kids, not a mass murderer) then you can stay indefinitely. You don’t NEED amnesty.

Deportations this month are down 75% (fact check me somebody.. please)... that’s a de facto abolishment of immigration enforcement.


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Yep, primarily catch and release into the country. Whereas Trump was sending them BACK to Mexico to await their court hearing. Now, they can disappear into the soft underbelly never to be heard from again.
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:25 pm
kalm wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:58 am

Yes. Ibanez clearly saw the trolling attempt by Ganny. Ibanez is smart like that.

Why do you think Ibanez is a dumb dumb? Is it because he’s from the South?

:ohno:
Methinks you're dodging things here. Sure, I was poking fun at you, but at the end of it you still haven't answered the very real question of how come it's our problem to fix, in some cases, failed nation states? No one's going to argue that we didn't have some impact due to our involvement in these counties going back centuries, and even worse, in some cases we were purposely nefarious in our involvements. However, I'd argue that the vast majority of the issues with these countries lies primarily with the folks living in those countries. Like I said, there are examples of places where things work (Costa Rica) and places where things don't work (Honduras), and because of things done differently in the first country versus the second one, one is successful and the other is seeing wide swaths of their population flee to the hope of a Democratic Party in power to let them into the US. We certainly have some level of blame in this - heck, I'd argue there's considerable blame for the Spanish Empire (RIP) for how some of these countries are today, but at the end of the day the country is what its citizens make of it. The answer just can't be "well, things are better in the US, so we should all just go there".
What am I dodging? Foreign intervention has consequences whether it’s justified or not. Thank you for agreeing with me. I know it’s hard sometimes. :thumb:

FWIW, your point regarding Costa Rica is interesting. I’m guessing CID could riff on that one. The people and political leadership of each country are obviously largely responsible. The people less so with more authoritarian regimes. Some of those regimes have been backed by us.

Remember...as Elon Musk points out...”We’ll coup whomever we want, when we want.”
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by CID1990 »

kalm wrote:
GannonFan wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:25 pm Methinks you're dodging things here. Sure, I was poking fun at you, but at the end of it you still haven't answered the very real question of how come it's our problem to fix, in some cases, failed nation states? No one's going to argue that we didn't have some impact due to our involvement in these counties going back centuries, and even worse, in some cases we were purposely nefarious in our involvements. However, I'd argue that the vast majority of the issues with these countries lies primarily with the folks living in those countries. Like I said, there are examples of places where things work (Costa Rica) and places where things don't work (Honduras), and because of things done differently in the first country versus the second one, one is successful and the other is seeing wide swaths of their population flee to the hope of a Democratic Party in power to let them into the US. We certainly have some level of blame in this - heck, I'd argue there's considerable blame for the Spanish Empire (RIP) for how some of these countries are today, but at the end of the day the country is what its citizens make of it. The answer just can't be "well, things are better in the US, so we should all just go there".
What am I dodging? Foreign intervention has consequences whether it’s justified or not. Thank you for agreeing with me. I know it’s hard sometimes. :thumb:

FWIW, your point regarding Costa Rica is interesting. I’m guessing CID could riff on that one. The people and political leadership of each country are obviously largely responsible. The people less so with more authoritarian regimes. Some of those regimes have been backed by us.

Remember...as Elon Musk points out...”We’ll coup whomever we want, when we want.”
The idea that these countries were paragons of governance prior to US involvement in them, or would have been better off today without that involvement is a weak canard and is not a justification for what amounts to open borders with these countries.

What the previous administration was doing was working in terms of keeping the crossings at manageable levels. The current admin is causing this current surge solely because of its own actions. And as usual you are coming down on the wrong side simply because you agree with the politics.

“We caused the problems in those countries” just not justify what is happening. Fortunately most Americans aren’t that dumb (or nuanced) and this is one of many millstones that is going to hang around the necks of the Dems in 2022 and 2024. So keep waving that flag, by all means.


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Re: The Official

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:27 am
kalm wrote:
What am I dodging? Foreign intervention has consequences whether it’s justified or not. Thank you for agreeing with me. I know it’s hard sometimes. :thumb:

FWIW, your point regarding Costa Rica is interesting. I’m guessing CID could riff on that one. The people and political leadership of each country are obviously largely responsible. The people less so with more authoritarian regimes. Some of those regimes have been backed by us.

Remember...as Elon Musk points out...”We’ll coup whomever we want, when we want.”
The idea that these countries were paragons of governance prior to US involvement in them, or would have been better off today without that involvement is a weak canard and is not a justification for what amounts to open borders with these countries.

What the previous administration was doing was working in terms of keeping the crossings at manageable levels. The current admin is causing this current surge solely because of its own actions. And as usual you are coming down on the wrong side simply because you agree with the politics.

“We caused the problems in those countries” just not justify what is happening. Fortunately most Americans aren’t that dumb (or nuanced) and this is one of many millstones that is going to hang around the necks of the Dems in 2022 and 2024. So keep waving that flag, by all means.


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Man you read a lot into “chickens coming home to roost.” :lol:

If I agreed with the politics or had a side, I wouldn’t have posted years ago about the Hillary-Honduras affair.

But I know...Liberals are doctrinaire Dems or something and this is just a US and or Latin America phenomenon.

My country right or wrong!

:lol:

(BTW I’m genuinely curious if you have a deeper take regarding Ganny’s question on why Costa Rica is a success while others are not.)
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Re: The Official

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:46 am
CID1990 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:27 am
The idea that these countries were paragons of governance prior to US involvement in them, or would have been better off today without that involvement is a weak canard and is not a justification for what amounts to open borders with these countries.

What the previous administration was doing was working in terms of keeping the crossings at manageable levels. The current admin is causing this current surge solely because of its own actions. And as usual you are coming down on the wrong side simply because you agree with the politics.

“We caused the problems in those countries” just not justify what is happening. Fortunately most Americans aren’t that dumb (or nuanced) and this is one of many millstones that is going to hang around the necks of the Dems in 2022 and 2024. So keep waving that flag, by all means.


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Man you read a lot into “chickens coming home to roost.” :lol:

If I agreed with the politics or had a side, I wouldn’t have posted years ago about the Hillary-Honduras affair.

But I know...Liberals are doctrinaire Dems or something and this is just a US and or Latin America phenomenon.

My country right or wrong!

:lol:

(BTW I’m genuinely curious if you have a deeper take regarding Ganny’s question on why Costa Rica is a success while others are not.)
When you use the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" you are specifically implying that the problem is predominately of our own making - did you not understand the phrase? Why use it then. You say in one post that the people and political leadership of the separate countries are largely responsible for the countries they have, but then you throw out the chickens roosting phrase and Elon Musk riffing about coups. You literally couldn't be more on both sides of the debate here.

Like I said, we certainly have a history of involvement, officially or unofficially, in these countries, but at the end of the day, these countries prosper or don't prosper largely due to their own abilities to come together as a society, craft their own governments, and then maintain what they've built. To lay it at the US's feet and saying that we're to blame for their lots in life and we should transplant their populations en masse to the US as penance is historically inaccurate.

As for the Costa Rica comment, it's not all that difficult. That region of Central America, due to geography, especially in the 1500's, didn't have a very large indigenous population, so under the Spanish there was a much higher percentage of Spanish (i.e. European) folks eventually living there, meaning that there wasn't the class segregation that plagued other locations throughout the region then and for centuries to come (i.e. long before there was even a USA). After independence from Spain, Costa Rica had generally good outcomes with private investments, often from the US but could be from anywhere else, in the country - railroads were built and worked for the betterment of the country, and even the big banana corporations that moved in didn't overly dominate the country or just build improvements for themselves. And probably the biggest reason why Costa Rica is a success today, following a coup attempt in the first half of the 1900's, Costa Rica took the decision to not have their own military. Hard to have military coups when there are no military forces (at least not in large numbers) in the country. Stable government for decades upon decades tends to lead to a better economic environment overall. Outside of weapons manufacturers, businesses hate wars and unrest. By comparison, I think Honduras is somewhere between 10 and 20 coups or revolutions since 1900. And I'm pretty sure the US wasn't behind many, or most of those.
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by 89Hen »

Sounds like you guys have a pretty good handle on things, so in a nutshell what's the deal with Haiti and the Dominican Republic in the vein of the Costa Rica discussion. I've always been amazed at the economic difference between the two small countries that share one island.

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Re: The Official

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:51 am
kalm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:46 am
Man you read a lot into “chickens coming home to roost.” :lol:

If I agreed with the politics or had a side, I wouldn’t have posted years ago about the Hillary-Honduras affair.

But I know...Liberals are doctrinaire Dems or something and this is just a US and or Latin America phenomenon.

My country right or wrong!

:lol:

(BTW I’m genuinely curious if you have a deeper take regarding Ganny’s question on why Costa Rica is a success while others are not.)
When you use the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" you are specifically implying that the problem is predominately of our own making - did you not understand the phrase? Why use it then. You say in one post that the people and political leadership of the separate countries are largely responsible for the countries they have, but then you throw out the chickens roosting phrase and Elon Musk riffing about coups. You literally couldn't be more on both sides of the debate here.

Like I said, we certainly have a history of involvement, officially or unofficially, in these countries, but at the end of the day, these countries prosper or don't prosper largely due to their own abilities to come together as a society, craft their own governments, and then maintain what they've built. To lay it at the US's feet and saying that we're to blame for their lots in life and we should transplant their populations en masse to the US as penance is historically inaccurate.

As for the Costa Rica comment, it's not all that difficult. That region of Central America, due to geography, especially in the 1500's, didn't have a very large indigenous population, so under the Spanish there was a much higher percentage of Spanish (i.e. European) folks eventually living there, meaning that there wasn't the class segregation that plagued other locations throughout the region then and for centuries to come (i.e. long before there was even a USA). After independence from Spain, Costa Rica had generally good outcomes with private investments, often from the US but could be from anywhere else, in the country - railroads were built and worked for the betterment of the country, and even the big banana corporations that moved in didn't overly dominate the country or just build improvements for themselves. And probably the biggest reason why Costa Rica is a success today, following a coup attempt in the first half of the 1900's, Costa Rica took the decision to not have their own military. Hard to have military coups when there are no military forces (at least not in large numbers) in the country. Stable government for decades upon decades tends to lead to a better economic environment overall. Outside of weapons manufacturers, businesses hate wars and unrest. By comparison, I think Honduras is somewhere between 10 and 20 coups or revolutions since 1900. And I'm pretty sure the US wasn't behind many, or most of those.
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Re: The Official

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:51 am
kalm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:46 am

Man you read a lot into “chickens coming home to roost.” :lol:

If I agreed with the politics or had a side, I wouldn’t have posted years ago about the Hillary-Honduras affair.

But I know...Liberals are doctrinaire Dems or something and this is just a US and or Latin America phenomenon.

My country right or wrong!

:lol:

(BTW I’m genuinely curious if you have a deeper take regarding Ganny’s question on why Costa Rica is a success while others are not.)
When you use the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" you are specifically implying that the problem is predominately of our own making - did you not understand the phrase? Why use it then. You say in one post that the people and political leadership of the separate countries are largely responsible for the countries they have, but then you throw out the chickens roosting phrase and Elon Musk riffing about coups. You literally couldn't be more on both sides of the debate here.

Like I said, we certainly have a history of involvement, officially or unofficially, in these countries, but at the end of the day, these countries prosper or don't prosper largely due to their own abilities to come together as a society, craft their own governments, and then maintain what they've built. To lay it at the US's feet and saying that we're to blame for their lots in life and we should transplant their populations en masse to the US as penance is historically inaccurate.

As for the Costa Rica comment, it's not all that difficult. That region of Central America, due to geography, especially in the 1500's, didn't have a very large indigenous population, so under the Spanish there was a much higher percentage of Spanish (i.e. European) folks eventually living there, meaning that there wasn't the class segregation that plagued other locations throughout the region then and for centuries to come (i.e. long before there was even a USA). After independence from Spain, Costa Rica had generally good outcomes with private investments, often from the US but could be from anywhere else, in the country - railroads were built and worked for the betterment of the country, and even the big banana corporations that moved in didn't overly dominate the country or just build improvements for themselves. And probably the biggest reason why Costa Rica is a success today, following a coup attempt in the first half of the 1900's, Costa Rica took the decision to not have their own military. Hard to have military coups when there are no military forces (at least not in large numbers) in the country. Stable government for decades upon decades tends to lead to a better economic environment overall. Outside of weapons manufacturers, businesses hate wars and unrest. By comparison, I think Honduras is somewhere between 10 and 20 coups or revolutions since 1900. And I'm pretty sure the US wasn't behind many, or most of those.
I stopped reading after the first paragraph because being on both sides of a debate like this is exactly where I want to be.

I do apologize for cavalierly using “chickens coming home to roost.” It’s a common phrase these days that’s perhaps thrown around too loosely. It wasn’t intended to trigger you.

I’m quite honestly not worth the spilled ink of whatever else you said unless it was actually a thoughtful and open discussion (which you are often quite good at) rather than a smack down gotcha fest.

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Re: The Official

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:25 am
GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:51 am

When you use the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" you are specifically implying that the problem is predominately of our own making - did you not understand the phrase? Why use it then. You say in one post that the people and political leadership of the separate countries are largely responsible for the countries they have, but then you throw out the chickens roosting phrase and Elon Musk riffing about coups. You literally couldn't be more on both sides of the debate here.

Like I said, we certainly have a history of involvement, officially or unofficially, in these countries, but at the end of the day, these countries prosper or don't prosper largely due to their own abilities to come together as a society, craft their own governments, and then maintain what they've built. To lay it at the US's feet and saying that we're to blame for their lots in life and we should transplant their populations en masse to the US as penance is historically inaccurate.

As for the Costa Rica comment, it's not all that difficult. That region of Central America, due to geography, especially in the 1500's, didn't have a very large indigenous population, so under the Spanish there was a much higher percentage of Spanish (i.e. European) folks eventually living there, meaning that there wasn't the class segregation that plagued other locations throughout the region then and for centuries to come (i.e. long before there was even a USA). After independence from Spain, Costa Rica had generally good outcomes with private investments, often from the US but could be from anywhere else, in the country - railroads were built and worked for the betterment of the country, and even the big banana corporations that moved in didn't overly dominate the country or just build improvements for themselves. And probably the biggest reason why Costa Rica is a success today, following a coup attempt in the first half of the 1900's, Costa Rica took the decision to not have their own military. Hard to have military coups when there are no military forces (at least not in large numbers) in the country. Stable government for decades upon decades tends to lead to a better economic environment overall. Outside of weapons manufacturers, businesses hate wars and unrest. By comparison, I think Honduras is somewhere between 10 and 20 coups or revolutions since 1900. And I'm pretty sure the US wasn't behind many, or most of those.
I stopped reading after the first paragraph because being on both sides of a debate like this is exactly where I want to be.

I do apologize for cavalierly using “chickens coming home to roost.” It’s a common phrase these days that’s perhaps thrown around too loosely. It wasn’t intended to trigger you.

I’m quite honestly not worth the spilled ink of whatever else you said unless it was actually a thoughtful and open discussion (which you are often quite good at) rather than a smack down gotcha fest.

:mrgreen:
So you're sorry I'm triggered, not that you took a position and then abandoned it when questioned? You apologize like a politician.

And I'm pretty sure nothing I wrote was part of a smack down gotcha fest. You said the immigration mess and the fact that these folks want to leave their countries is primarily because the US made their countries the failed states they are - and that the US then should be beholden to help these nations as penance for past wrongs, and I questioned the evidence behind that and made the case that the biggest reasons for why these states have failed is to be found in those nations themselves and not because of the US. If you want to have that discussion I'm all ears.
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by GannonFan »

89Hen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:56 am Sounds like you guys have a pretty good handle on things, so in a nutshell what's the deal with Haiti and the Dominican Republic in the vein of the Costa Rica discussion. I've always been amazed at the economic difference between the two small countries that share one island.

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Well, Haiti is an example of a country beaten down by other countries. Haiti was the first country to be formed out a slave revolt - Haiti was chock full of slaves in the 1700's - I think at one point in time there were almost a million African slaves on that island and maybe 25k Frenchmen, if that. Seeing how the US and most European countries didn't want to give more weight to slave revolts, a lot of nations didn't recognize Haiti as a country for awhile (US didn't do it until the 1860's - about 50 years after they became a country). And maybe even more so France negotiated recognition along with a massive payment, and Haiti's economy was crushed for years just trying to pay off that debt. That really strangled the economy and led to a fair amount of government overthrows and coups. The US actually occupied Haiti for a couple of decades and made some improvements, but it's only just been recently that Haiti is moving along without a strongman dictator. Hasn't helped that they've been really hit by some bad hurricanes recently too (and after one of those in 2010 was where Hillary, as Sec of State, did a fair amount of questionable things by tying contributions to the Clinton Foundation with access to Haitian relief projects).

Difference with the Dominican Republic is that they eventually got independence from Spain and they were saddled with a ridiculous payment to France to buy recognition. They too were occupied by the US at the same time as Haiti (WWI precipitated some of that), but they've had a much better go of it in terms of government stability. That's led to a better economy (tourism obviously). Don't underestimate too that one of the world's biggest gold mines is in the Dominican Republic as well. That's helpful.
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:56 am Sounds like you guys have a pretty good handle on things, so in a nutshell what's the deal with Haiti and the Dominican Republic in the vein of the Costa Rica discussion. I've always been amazed at the economic difference between the two small countries that share one island.

Image
There's a good podcast that covers the Haitian and Dominican Revolutions. From what I remember, Haiti and DR were heavily colonized by the French and Spanish as well as had a significant enslaved population. The Haitians mismanaged the government, there was a ton of debt from their own revolution in the late 1700s (which wasn't paid off until the late 1940s)m the DRs were heavily taxed and eventually rebelled in the 1830s or 40s. The DR has been a French colony, Spanish, multiple revolutions, occupied by America on several occasions..in other words very unstable. It wasn't until the 1970s did they finally reach some government stability.
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by GannonFan »

Ibanez wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:57 am
89Hen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:56 am Sounds like you guys have a pretty good handle on things, so in a nutshell what's the deal with Haiti and the Dominican Republic in the vein of the Costa Rica discussion. I've always been amazed at the economic difference between the two small countries that share one island.

Image
There's a good podcast that covers the Haitian and Dominican Revolutions. From what I remember, Haiti and DR were heavily colonized by the French and Spanish as well as had a significant enslaved population. The Haitians mismanaged the government, there was a ton of debt from their own revolution in the late 1700s (which wasn't paid off until the late 1940s)m the DRs were heavily taxed and eventually rebelled in the 1830s or 40s. The DR has been a French colony, Spanish, multiple revolutions, occupied by America on several occasions..in other words very unstable. It wasn't until the 1970s did they finally reach some government stability.
I blame the French. :nod:
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by Ibanez »

GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:44 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:57 am

There's a good podcast that covers the Haitian and Dominican Revolutions. From what I remember, Haiti and DR were heavily colonized by the French and Spanish as well as had a significant enslaved population. The Haitians mismanaged the government, there was a ton of debt from their own revolution in the late 1700s (which wasn't paid off until the late 1940s)m the DRs were heavily taxed and eventually rebelled in the 1830s or 40s. The DR has been a French colony, Spanish, multiple revolutions, occupied by America on several occasions..in other words very unstable. It wasn't until the 1970s did they finally reach some government stability.
I blame the French. :nod:
That's what I do. :lol:
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ibanez wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:48 am
GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:44 am

I blame the French. :nod:
That's what I do. :lol:
Fuck the French. :coffee: :coffee:
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Re: The Official "Making America Woke Again" Thread

Post by HI54UNI »

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Re: The Official

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:37 am
kalm wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:25 am

I stopped reading after the first paragraph because being on both sides of a debate like this is exactly where I want to be.

I do apologize for cavalierly using “chickens coming home to roost.” It’s a common phrase these days that’s perhaps thrown around too loosely. It wasn’t intended to trigger you.

I’m quite honestly not worth the spilled ink of whatever else you said unless it was actually a thoughtful and open discussion (which you are often quite good at) rather than a smack down gotcha fest.

:mrgreen:
So you're sorry I'm triggered, not that you took a position and then abandoned it when questioned? You apologize like a politician.

And I'm pretty sure nothing I wrote was part of a smack down gotcha fest. You said the immigration mess and the fact that these folks want to leave their countries is primarily because the US made their countries the failed states they are - and that the US then should be beholden to help these nations as penance for past wrongs, and I questioned the evidence behind that and made the case that the biggest reasons for why these states have failed is to be found in those nations themselves and not because of the US. If you want to have that discussion I'm all ears.
I already acknowledged your issue with “chickens coming home to roost. If I changed my wording to US government interventions abroad have consequences would that make you feel better?

I really want you to feel better about all of this.

:thumb:
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Re: The Official

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:33 am
GannonFan wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:37 am
So you're sorry I'm triggered, not that you took a position and then abandoned it when questioned? You apologize like a politician.

And I'm pretty sure nothing I wrote was part of a smack down gotcha fest. You said the immigration mess and the fact that these folks want to leave their countries is primarily because the US made their countries the failed states they are - and that the US then should be beholden to help these nations as penance for past wrongs, and I questioned the evidence behind that and made the case that the biggest reasons for why these states have failed is to be found in those nations themselves and not because of the US. If you want to have that discussion I'm all ears.
I already acknowledged your issue with “chickens coming home to roost. If I changed my wording to US government interventions abroad have consequences would that make you feel better?

I really want you to feel better about all of this.

:thumb:
I think Kalm is offering to take you kayaking Ganny. :oops:
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Re: The Official

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:35 am
kalm wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:33 am

I already acknowledged your issue with “chickens coming home to roost. If I changed my wording to US government interventions abroad have consequences would that make you feel better?

I really want you to feel better about all of this.

:thumb:
I think Kalm is offering to take you kayaking Ganny. :oops:
Only if he does all the paddling. :thumb:
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