The Democratic Base

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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by houndawg »

SDHornet wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:45 am
UNI88 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:54 am

I don't think that's the aim of the Democratic Party but I do think it's a long-term objective of members of the party like AOChe. Given the opportunity do I think she would want me to be "reeducated"? Yes, I do.

Yes, our constitution has been changed and there is a process to do it. If the pseudo-progressives want to change the Constitution they should follow the process. Instead, they bitch and moan about it and want to subvert it, not legally change it.

You don't see the hypocrisy of demonizing Trump as a Fascist/Hitler while excusing or worse venerating Mao and Stalin? The Hammer & Sickle should be considered a symbol of hate just as much as the swastika.
:nod: They can't win by the existing rules, so they have to create their own (court packing, new states, etc). Or they just flat out ignore them (2020 election). :coffee:
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:23 pm The scales have fallen from my eyes over the past 5 years. The problem we have in this country is that the Democratic base is largely composed of the kind of people that allowed for things like Stalin and Mao consolidating power in the 20th century.
BTW the kind of people that resulted in Stalin and Mao consolidating power are the same kind of people that allowed for things like Hitler and Mussolini taking power. And, in our country, it's not the Democrat base that is like that. It's the Republican base. The Republican base is far more a threat to put us on the road to authoritarianism than the Democrat base is.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:59 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:23 pm The scales have fallen from my eyes over the past 5 years. The problem we have in this country is that the Democratic base is largely composed of the kind of people that allowed for things like Stalin and Mao consolidating power in the 20th century.
BTW the kind of people that resulted in Stalin and Mao consolidating power are the same kind of people that allowed for things like Hitler and Mussolini taking power. And, in our country, it's not the Democrat base that is like that. It's the Republican base. The Republican base is far more a threat to put us on the road to authoritarianism than the Democrat base is.
Bullshit John. There are plenty of lemmings on the left who have bought hook, line and sinker into the lie that big government is good and that socialism will work among other things. They're a glass half empty bunch that can't see the many good things that this country has accomplished and are willing to burn everything down to get their way. They're kind of like Trump and his sycophants spouting conspiracy theories and throwing temper tantrums.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:35 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:59 pm

BTW the kind of people that resulted in Stalin and Mao consolidating power are the same kind of people that allowed for things like Hitler and Mussolini taking power. And, in our country, it's not the Democrat base that is like that. It's the Republican base. The Republican base is far more a threat to put us on the road to authoritarianism than the Democrat base is.
Bullshit John. There are plenty of lemmings on the left who have bought hook, line and sinker into the lie that big government is good and that socialism will work among other things. They're a glass half empty bunch that can't see the many good things that this country has accomplished and are willing to burn everything down to get their way. They're kind of like Trump and his sycophants spouting conspiracy theories and throwing temper tantrums.
No. The Democrat base does not threaten our system like the Republican base does now. If there was any doubt about that it should have been erased over what's happened since Biden won the Presidential election. The Republican base is all in on overturning the results of a free and fair election that had a clear outcome beyond any reasonable doubt. As I've said before this is not like Bush vs. Gore when it was one State and a few hundred votes with legitimate arguments about who actually won. The Republican base has shown during this episode that it is a threat to our system in a way that the Democrat base never has. Never. Not even close.

Plus, frankly, the Republican base showed that it is a threat by virtue of EVER supporting somebody like Donald Trump. The Democrat base has never done anything like THAT either.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by UNI88 »

With the Republican Party melting down, what is the future of the Democratic Party?
  • Will they step up to the void and provide real leadership and direction?
  • Will the ctrl-left take the GOP meltdown as further proof of the righteousness of their cause and attempt to force their agenda on the American people?
  • How will the moderates in the party respond?
  • What are the odds of a intraparty civil war?
  • Will we see the usual mid-term losses by the party in power?
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:40 am With the Republican Party melting down, what is the future of the Democratic Party?
  • Will they step up to the void and provide real leadership and direction?
  • Will the ctrl-left take the GOP meltdown as further proof of the righteousness of their cause and attempt to force their agenda on the American people?
  • How will the moderates in the party respond?
  • What are the odds of a intraparty civil war?
  • Will we see the usual mid-term losses by the party in power?
The last two are very good questions. If you look at the echoes of history, crises eventually lead to greater unity but a chunk of that is leadership driven. If conditions on the ground don’t improve (EG: dealing with the economic fallouts from Covid) then the chances for significant intra-party division with the Dems is enhanced.

I think typical political outcomes are off the table for now. Mid-term losses being tied to a healthy and more moderate right.

In order for things to return to some semblance of normalcy and sanity, we should all be rooting for reasonable conservatives to decisively let the fallout happen and quickly re-fill the vacuum.

:twocents:
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:47 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:40 am With the Republican Party melting down, what is the future of the Democratic Party?
  • Will they step up to the void and provide real leadership and direction?
  • Will the ctrl-left take the GOP meltdown as further proof of the righteousness of their cause and attempt to force their agenda on the American people?
  • How will the moderates in the party respond?
  • What are the odds of a intraparty civil war?
  • Will we see the usual mid-term losses by the party in power?
The last two are very good questions. If you look at the echoes of history, crises eventually lead to greater unity but a chunk of that is leadership driven. If conditions on the ground don’t improve (EG: dealing with the economic fallouts from Covid) then the chances for significant intra-party division with the Dems is enhanced.

I think typical political outcomes are off the table for now. Mid-term losses being tied to a healthy and more moderate right.

In order for things to return to some semblance of normalcy and sanity, we should all be rooting for reasonable conservatives to decisively let the fallout happen and quickly re-fill the vacuum.

:twocents:
How can the GOP, once Trump departs, not be anything but "more moderate"? That's almost a default once Trump loses the power of the White House. And he's not a spring chicken, so the odds of him hanging on to the wheels of power in the GOP for an extended time, even out of office, are pretty slim.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by Ibanez »

houndawg wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:36 am
SDHornet wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:45 am

:nod: They can't win by the existing rules, so they have to create their own (court packing, new states, etc). Or they just flat out ignore them (2020 election). :coffee:
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Packed the court by filling vacancies? Please. He didn't pack the court. Packing the court would be Trump adding 6 more justices in addition the 9 that already exist.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by Ibanez »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:06 am
kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:47 am

The last two are very good questions. If you look at the echoes of history, crises eventually lead to greater unity but a chunk of that is leadership driven. If conditions on the ground don’t improve (EG: dealing with the economic fallouts from Covid) then the chances for significant intra-party division with the Dems is enhanced.

I think typical political outcomes are off the table for now. Mid-term losses being tied to a healthy and more moderate right.

In order for things to return to some semblance of normalcy and sanity, we should all be rooting for reasonable conservatives to decisively let the fallout happen and quickly re-fill the vacuum.

:twocents:
How can the GOP, once Trump departs, not be anything but "more moderate"? That's almost a default once Trump loses the power of the White House. And he's not a spring chicken, so the odds of him hanging on to the wheels of power in the GOP for an extended time, even out of office, are pretty slim.
Their supporters won't tolerate moderation. :coffee:
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Re: The Democratic Base

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Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:21 am
GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:06 am

How can the GOP, once Trump departs, not be anything but "more moderate"? That's almost a default once Trump loses the power of the White House. And he's not a spring chicken, so the odds of him hanging on to the wheels of power in the GOP for an extended time, even out of office, are pretty slim.
Their supporters won't tolerate moderation. :coffee:
I was just referring to the "more moderate" phrase. Anything short of an insurrection that lays siege to the capitol building will actually be a step in the "more moderate" direction.
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Re: The Democratic Base

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Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:21 am
GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:06 am
How can the GOP, once Trump departs, not be anything but "more moderate"? That's almost a default once Trump loses the power of the White House. And he's not a spring chicken, so the odds of him hanging on to the wheels of power in the GOP for an extended time, even out of office, are pretty slim.
Their supporters won't tolerate moderation. :coffee:
IMO, Trump supporters are extreme populists not extreme conservatives. Trump has given populism a much stronger voice in the Republican Party and I'm not sure that the support for populism goes away with Trump. It will be interesting to see what happens to these populists and the Republican Party after Trump is gone.
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Re: The Democratic Base

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UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:48 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:21 am
Their supporters won't tolerate moderation. :coffee:
IMO, Trump supporters are extreme populists not extreme conservatives. Trump has given populism a much stronger voice in the Republican Party and I'm not sure that the support for populism goes away with Trump. It will be interesting to see what happens to these populists and the Republican Party after Trump is gone.
This. My money is on the GOP assuming most of these people stick around once they push Trump out of the party. They don't realize most of these people showed up because of Trump. You're already seeing a circling of the wagons on SM. Trump can retain a platform of populism and wreak havoc to the establishment come primary season (if he wants to).

Regarding what happens to the DNC, similarly to what the GOP is going to Trump, they will try to sway away from the extreme and ignore some of the promises they sold progressives on. It'll back fire on them too.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by Ibanez »

SDHornet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:59 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:48 am

IMO, Trump supporters are extreme populists not extreme conservatives. Trump has given populism a much stronger voice in the Republican Party and I'm not sure that the support for populism goes away with Trump. It will be interesting to see what happens to these populists and the Republican Party after Trump is gone.
This. My money is on the GOP assuming most of these people stick around once they push Trump out of the party. They don't realize most of these people showed up because of Trump. You're already seeing a circling of the wagons on SM. Trump can retain a platform of populism and wreak havoc to the establishment come primary season (if he wants to).

Regarding what happens to the DNC, similarly to what the GOP is going to Trump, they will try to sway away from the extreme and ignore some of the promises they sold progressives on. It'll back fire on them too.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by Ibanez »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:28 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:21 am
Their supporters won't tolerate moderation. :coffee:
I was just referring to the "more moderate" phrase. Anything short of an insurrection that lays siege to the capitol building will actually be a step in the "more moderate" direction.
Oh. hahah. Yes I agree. :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by UNI88 »

SDHornet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:59 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:48 am
IMO, Trump supporters are extreme populists not extreme conservatives. Trump has given populism a much stronger voice in the Republican Party and I'm not sure that the support for populism goes away with Trump. It will be interesting to see what happens to these populists and the Republican Party after Trump is gone.
This. My money is on the GOP assuming most of these people stick around once they push Trump out of the party. They don't realize most of these people showed up because of Trump. You're already seeing a circling of the wagons on SM. Trump can retain a platform of populism and wreak havoc to the establishment come primary season (if he wants to).

Regarding what happens to the DNC, similarly to what the GOP is going to Trump, they will try to sway away from the extreme and ignore some of the promises they sold progressives on. It'll back fire on them too.
:nod: We could end up with a liberal party, a conservative party, a populist party and/or a moderate party. I think we'll definitely still have a least 2 parties long-term but the potential for another 1 or 2 influential parties is probably greater than it has been in a long time.

We live in interesting times.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:06 am
kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:47 am

The last two are very good questions. If you look at the echoes of history, crises eventually lead to greater unity but a chunk of that is leadership driven. If conditions on the ground don’t improve (EG: dealing with the economic fallouts from Covid) then the chances for significant intra-party division with the Dems is enhanced.

I think typical political outcomes are off the table for now. Mid-term losses being tied to a healthy and more moderate right.

In order for things to return to some semblance of normalcy and sanity, we should all be rooting for reasonable conservatives to decisively let the fallout happen and quickly re-fill the vacuum.

:twocents:
How can the GOP, once Trump departs, not be anything but "more moderate"? That's almost a default once Trump loses the power of the White House. And he's not a spring chicken, so the odds of him hanging on to the wheels of power in the GOP for an extended time, even out of office, are pretty slim.
Depends who owns the naming rights to GOP. Even without Trump, those remaining are still going to have to deal with a large portion of Trump voters who are lumping GOP establishment in with the Democrats as traitors. Their numbers are significant to winning primaries and elections. Not only are Dem operatives making lists of Trump supporters the revolutionaries are making their own lists of moderate enemies. And I’ll remind you that policy wise, Trump can still be considered not as far right as some may think.

Edit: I see SD and 88 beat me to some of this. :thumb:
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:03 pm
SDHornet wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:59 am

This. My money is on the GOP assuming most of these people stick around once they push Trump out of the party. They don't realize most of these people showed up because of Trump. You're already seeing a circling of the wagons on SM. Trump can retain a platform of populism and wreak havoc to the establishment come primary season (if he wants to).

Regarding what happens to the DNC, similarly to what the GOP is going to Trump, they will try to sway away from the extreme and ignore some of the promises they sold progressives on. It'll back fire on them too.
:nod: We could end up with a liberal party, a conservative party, a populist party and/or a moderate party. I think we'll definitely still have a least 2 parties long-term but the potential for another 1 or 2 influential parties is probably greater than it has been in a long time.

We live in interesting times.
I'll believe that when I see it. If we had any history of 3rd, or even 4th parties, hanging around for more than an election cycle then I'd be more inclined to believe it. But close to 250 years of American history and no example of more than momentary extra parties tells me that human behavior, and again, American behavior to be more specific, is not partial to more than two parties.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by Ibanez »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:19 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:03 pm

:nod: We could end up with a liberal party, a conservative party, a populist party and/or a moderate party. I think we'll definitely still have a least 2 parties long-term but the potential for another 1 or 2 influential parties is probably greater than it has been in a long time.

We live in interesting times.
I'll believe that when I see it. If we had any history of 3rd, or even 4th parties, hanging around for more than an election cycle then I'd be more inclined to believe it. But close to 250 years of American history and no example of more than momentary extra parties tells me that human behavior, and again, American behavior to be more specific, is not partial to more than two parties.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by UNI88 »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:19 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:03 pm
:nod: We could end up with a liberal party, a conservative party, a populist party and/or a moderate party. I think we'll definitely still have a least 2 parties long-term but the potential for another 1 or 2 influential parties is probably greater than it has been in a long time.

We live in interesting times.
I'll believe that when I see it. If we had any history of 3rd, or even 4th parties, hanging around for more than an election cycle then I'd be more inclined to believe it. But close to 250 years of American history and no example of more than momentary extra parties tells me that human behavior, and again, American behavior to be more specific, is not partial to more than two parties.
It's unlikely but my point was that the potential is probably greater. This isn't like Ross Perot or Ralph Nader trying to pull away voters from the 2 major parties. You have populist and establishment factions within both parties that might split them apart.

The Republican Party is already splintering. It might pull itself back together and it might not.

The battle for the soul of the Democratic Party between the pseudo-progressive populists (typically younger and/or from urban areas) and the establishment (typically older and/or from more rural areas) is going to be interesting. If there is a battle, which side will the suburbanites choose?

Even if we end up with 2 parties, who knows what form/platform/ideology will be the core of each of those parties.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:24 pm
GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:19 pm

I'll believe that when I see it. If we had any history of 3rd, or even 4th parties, hanging around for more than an election cycle then I'd be more inclined to believe it. But close to 250 years of American history and no example of more than momentary extra parties tells me that human behavior, and again, American behavior to be more specific, is not partial to more than two parties.
It's unlikely but my point was that the potential is probably greater. This isn't like Ross Perot or Ralph Nader trying to pull away voters from the 2 major parties. You have populist and establishment factions within both parties that might split them apart.

The Republican Party is already splintering. It might pull itself back together and it might not.

The battle for the soul of the Democratic Party between the pseudo-progressive populists (typically younger and/or from urban areas) and the establishment (typically older and/or from more rural areas) is going to be interesting. If there is a battle, which side will the suburbanites choose?

Even if we end up with 2 parties, who knows what form/platform/ideology will be the core of each of those parties.
But other than Perot, has any 3rd party even stayed together for more than one election cycle? Not really. And there have been plenty of ideological 3rd parties in the past - Debs and the Socialist Party, LaFallotte and the Progressive Party, both come to mind as exactly what you're talking about. And in the end, those parties melded back into the major parties. It's what they do.
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by houndawg »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:28 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:21 am
Their supporters won't tolerate moderation. :coffee:
I was just referring to the "more moderate" phrase. Anything short of an insurrection that lays siege to the capitol building will actually be a step in the "more moderate" direction.
Sic transit moderation.. :coffee:
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:24 pm
GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:19 pm

I'll believe that when I see it. If we had any history of 3rd, or even 4th parties, hanging around for more than an election cycle then I'd be more inclined to believe it. But close to 250 years of American history and no example of more than momentary extra parties tells me that human behavior, and again, American behavior to be more specific, is not partial to more than two parties.
It's unlikely but my point was that the potential is probably greater. This isn't like Ross Perot or Ralph Nader trying to pull away voters from the 2 major parties. You have populist and establishment factions within both parties that might split them apart.

The Republican Party is already splintering. It might pull itself back together and it might not.

The battle for the soul of the Democratic Party between the pseudo-progressive populists (typically younger and/or from urban areas) and the establishment (typically older and/or from more rural areas) is going to be interesting. If there is a battle, which side will the suburbanites choose?

Even if we end up with 2 parties, who knows what form/platform/ideology will be the core of each of those parties.
The only thing the two parties agree on is that there is no place for a third party. Ain't happening
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Re: The Democratic Base

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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by BDKJMU »

SDHornet wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:26 pm
The top 3 donks leaders in the House are all over 80. :shock: Wow, did not know that..
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Re: The Democratic Base

Post by Ibanez »

BDKJMU wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:50 pm
SDHornet wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:26 pm
The top 3 donks leaders in the House are all over 80. :shock: Wow, did not know that..
Old people, am i right!? I didn't realize Grassely was almost 90 yrs old.
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