The Republican Base

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Re: The Republican Base

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:20 pm
kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:52 am

I don’t think socialism works, but didn’t the Soviet Space program kick some ass for awhile? Sadly, like UNI they just couldn’t manage to ever finish #1.

:kisswink:
You’re kidding with the Soviet space program thing, right? :dunce: :dunce:
You wouldn't say that if you were old enough to remember the early days of space flight. It was all-Soviet all the time while our shit was blowing up on the launch pad :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by houndawg »

SDHornet wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:20 pm
Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:37 pm

Does that have to be 100% control of means of production and distribution to be socialist by your definition? If a country has 75% government control of the means of production and distribution, for example, they are not socialist?

It's a continuum. Communism is at one end, as close to 100% as you can get.

Nordic countries are more socialist than the United States, but less socialist than the Soviet Union.

China was ~100% government control of the means of production and distribution. .China opened up industry in the 1980s and 1990s and became less socialist and more capitalist. They didn't cease being socialist and become wholly capitalist. They moved on the spectrum.

Bernie and AOC do not think we should be Communists and have 100% government control of the means of production. They do think we should be more socialist, imo. You do not think we should be 0% socialist either. We argue about how socialist we should be vs. how purely capitalist we should be.
China utilizes literal slave labor. Might want to not include them as an example. Just sayin'. :coffee:
We utilize a federal minimum wage to put a veneer of capitalism on our slave labor
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:19 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
And the proof is right there in the government interference-free economy of powerhouses like Somalia
:dunce: That argument is just as tired as the proof is right there in the uber-government controlled economy of powerhouses like North Korea. You need some new material.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:21 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:20 pm

You’re kidding with the Soviet space program thing, right? :dunce: :dunce:
You wouldn't say that if you were old enough to remember the early days of space flight. It was all-Soviet all the time while our shit was blowing up on the launch pad :coffee:
It had to have lasted at least 31 years (UNI’s rule) right? And didn’t it kind of push ours as well?

Heck couldn’t one even make a case for soviet socialism itself? It lasted 70 years going from a mostly agrarian economy to the world’s #2 superpower.

Of course many empires lasted longer and certain kingdoms have lasted 1000’s of years. Monarchies clearly have had more long term success than capitalist democracies!

(Can we call them democracies again or is that still too close to Marxism?)
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:19 am
houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:21 am

You wouldn't say that if you were old enough to remember the early days of space flight. It was all-Soviet all the time while our shit was blowing up on the launch pad :coffee:
It had to have lasted at least 31 years (UNI’s rule) right? And didn’t it kind of push ours as well?

Heck couldn’t one even make a case for soviet socialism itself? It lasted 70 years going from a mostly agrarian economy to the world’s #2 superpower.

Of course many empires lasted longer and certain kingdoms have lasted 1000’s of years. Monarchies clearly have had more long term success than capitalist democracies!

(Can we call them democracies again or is that still too close to Marxism?)
What case would you be making in that regard? Any superpower status was tied directly to its military (and nuclear) posture - heck, even the space race was really an outgrowth of rocket and missile technology that both sides pilfered as needed from the Nazi war efforts in those regards.

If you're saying that any country that can be in the top 2 or 3 of world population, be on a constant military/war footing at the detriment of most other industries and portions of the economy, and can be one of only a handful of nations with the nuclear armament to destroy the world several times over is a selling point of soviet socialism for other countries to emulate and aspire to, knowing that the shelf-life before all of that military focusing will cause the whole system to crash in on itself in less than a century, if not sooner, then go ahead, make the case for it. :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:19 am

It had to have lasted at least 31 years (UNI’s rule) right? And didn’t it kind of push ours as well?

Heck couldn’t one even make a case for soviet socialism itself? It lasted 70 years going from a mostly agrarian economy to the world’s #2 superpower.

Of course many empires lasted longer and certain kingdoms have lasted 1000’s of years. Monarchies clearly have had more long term success than capitalist democracies!

(Can we call them democracies again or is that still too close to Marxism?)
What case would you be making in that regard? Any superpower status was tied directly to its military (and nuclear) posture - heck, even the space race was really an outgrowth of rocket and missile technology that both sides pilfered as needed from the Nazi war efforts in those regards.

If you're saying that any country that can be in the top 2 or 3 of world population, be on a constant military/war footing at the detriment of most other industries and portions of the economy, and can be one of only a handful of nations with the nuclear armament to destroy the world several times over is a selling point of soviet socialism for other countries to emulate and aspire to, knowing that the shelf-life before all of that military focusing will cause the whole system to crash in on itself in less than a century, if not sooner, then go ahead, make the case for it. :coffee:
Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 am

What case would you be making in that regard? Any superpower status was tied directly to its military (and nuclear) posture - heck, even the space race was really an outgrowth of rocket and missile technology that both sides pilfered as needed from the Nazi war efforts in those regards.

If you're saying that any country that can be in the top 2 or 3 of world population, be on a constant military/war footing at the detriment of most other industries and portions of the economy, and can be one of only a handful of nations with the nuclear armament to destroy the world several times over is a selling point of soviet socialism for other countries to emulate and aspire to, knowing that the shelf-life before all of that military focusing will cause the whole system to crash in on itself in less than a century, if not sooner, then go ahead, make the case for it. :coffee:
Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
I didn't see him proffer the USSR as a successful model, even in a short timeframe, of socialism.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:03 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am

Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
I didn't see him proffer the USSR as a successful model, even in a short timeframe, of socialism.
I asked for some clarifications of the question. One of those was 31 years.

I don’t make the rules.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 am
What case would you be making in that regard? Any superpower status was tied directly to its military (and nuclear) posture - heck, even the space race was really an outgrowth of rocket and missile technology that both sides pilfered as needed from the Nazi war efforts in those regards.

If you're saying that any country that can be in the top 2 or 3 of world population, be on a constant military/war footing at the detriment of most other industries and portions of the economy, and can be one of only a handful of nations with the nuclear armament to destroy the world several times over is a selling point of soviet socialism for other countries to emulate and aspire to, knowing that the shelf-life before all of that military focusing will cause the whole system to crash in on itself in less than a century, if not sooner, then go ahead, make the case for it. :coffee:
Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
So lasting 70 years = successful?

As an average or poor person, would you want to live in the USA or USSR during those 70 years? I would take a capitalist hell hole like the USA over the food shortages and alcoholism of the socialist paradise that was the USSR. Socialism is not the panacea that the ctrl-left likes to make it out to be.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by GannonFan »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am

Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
So lasting 70 years = successful?

As an average or poor person, would you want to live in the USA or USSR during those 70 years? I would take a capitalist hell hole like the USA over the food shortages and alcoholism of the socialist paradise that was the USSR. Socialism is not the panacea that the ctrl-left likes to make it out to be.
Eh, who needs food and basic necessities? I mean, their space program was literally out this world!! :mrgreen:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am

Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
So lasting 70 years = successful?

As an average or poor person, would you want to live in the USA or USSR during those 70 years? I would take a capitalist hell hole like the USA over the food shortages and alcoholism of the socialist paradise that was the USSR. Socialism is not the panacea that the ctrl-left likes to make it out to be.
Didn’t you say 31 years? Now we’re back to interchanging socialism, Stalin, democratic socialism, mixed market capitalism, Bernie, and Ace of Base? Is nothing sacred anymore???

This place has lost its appreciation of trolling and satire.

Jesus fucking Christ!

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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:16 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 am

So lasting 70 years = successful?

As an average or poor person, would you want to live in the USA or USSR during those 70 years? I would take a capitalist hell hole like the USA over the food shortages and alcoholism of the socialist paradise that was the USSR. Socialism is not the panacea that the ctrl-left likes to make it out to be.
Eh, who needs food and basic necessities? I mean, their space program was literally out this world!! :mrgreen:
Eh...who needs social security or stimulus? Heck, who needs taxes? I mean their stock market and overseas corporate profits are through the roof!
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:03 am
I didn't see him proffer the USSR as a successful model, even in a short timeframe, of socialism.
I asked for some clarifications of the question. One of those was 31 years.

I don’t make the rules.
31 years was obviously a tongue in cheek response to your request to define long-term success. Another way to define it is sustainable. The socialist example that you have yet to provide should demonstrate sustained and sustainable success.

Venezuelan socialism was probably successful for a few years before the bottom dropped out despite immense petroleum resources.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:31 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 am

I asked for some clarifications of the question. One of those was 31 years.

I don’t make the rules.
31 years was obviously a tongue in cheek response to your request to define long-term success. Another way to define it is sustainable. The socialist example that you have yet to provide should demonstrate sustained and sustainable success.

Venezuelan socialism was probably successful for a few years before the bottom dropped out despite immense petroleum resources.
So a tongue in cheek response to my tongue in cheek response? :shock:

It took two pages of obfuscation just for you to come up with the “means of production” goal post.

:lol:

You do honestly know that I’m a fan of capitalism, right?

I just like the well regulated more inclusive kind that produces less of a wealth gap and a strong middle class.

This makes me more of a centrist than you. Suck it!

:lol:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:47 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:31 am
31 years was obviously a tongue in cheek response to your request to define long-term success. Another way to define it is sustainable. The socialist example that you have yet to provide should demonstrate sustained and sustainable success.

Venezuelan socialism was probably successful for a few years before the bottom dropped out despite immense petroleum resources.
So a tongue in cheek response to my tongue in cheek response? :shock:

It took two pages of obfuscation just for you to come up with the “means of production” goal post.

:lol:

You do honestly know that I’m a fan of capitalism, right?

I just like the well regulated more inclusive kind that produces less of a wealth gap and a strong middle class.

This makes me more of a centrist than you. Suck it!

:lol:
For a fan of capitalism, you sure spend a lot of time defending socialism and the ctrl-left.

I support a regulated more inclusive kind that produces less of a wealth gap and a strong middle class but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water like AOChe and the ctrl-left.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:21 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:20 pm

You’re kidding with the Soviet space program thing, right? :dunce: :dunce:
You wouldn't say that if you were old enough to remember the early days of space flight. It was all-Soviet all the time while our shit was blowing up on the launch pad :coffee:
Yup. The commies were first to get a satellite to orbit the earth, and I think first to get a human in orbit too. But we won the long game so, 'Merica!!!!
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:23 am
SDHornet wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:20 pm

China utilizes literal slave labor. Might want to not include them as an example. Just sayin'. :coffee:
We utilize a federal minimum wage to put a veneer of capitalism on our slave labor
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 am

Ask UNI (or read the thread for context). It was his question and goal posts. :coffee:
So lasting 70 years = successful?

As an average or poor person, would you want to live in the USA or USSR during those 70 years? I would take a capitalist hell hole like the USA over the food shortages and alcoholism of the socialist paradise that was the USSR. Socialism is not the panacea that the ctrl-left likes to make it out to be.
No shit, for a smaller scale just look at how wonderful CHAZ turned out. :lol:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by Winterborn »

SDHornet wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:04 am
houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:21 am

You wouldn't say that if you were old enough to remember the early days of space flight. It was all-Soviet all the time while our shit was blowing up on the launch pad :coffee:
Yup. The commies were first to get a satellite to orbit the earth, and I think first to get a human in orbit too. But we won the long game so, 'Merica!!!!
Didn't they also have the first dog into space as well?
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by houndawg »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:19 am

It had to have lasted at least 31 years (UNI’s rule) right? And didn’t it kind of push ours as well?

Heck couldn’t one even make a case for soviet socialism itself? It lasted 70 years going from a mostly agrarian economy to the world’s #2 superpower.

Of course many empires lasted longer and certain kingdoms have lasted 1000’s of years. Monarchies clearly have had more long term success than capitalist democracies!

(Can we call them democracies again or is that still too close to Marxism?)
What case would you be making in that regard? Any superpower status was tied directly to its military (and nuclear) posture - heck, even the space race was really an outgrowth of rocket and missile technology that both sides pilfered as needed from the Nazi war efforts in those regards.

If you're saying that any country that can be in the top 2 or 3 of world population, be on a constant military/war footing at the detriment of most other industries and portions of the economy, and can be one of only a handful of nations with the nuclear armament to destroy the world several times over is a selling point of soviet socialism for other countries to emulate and aspire to, knowing that the shelf-life before all of that military focusing will cause the whole system to crash in on itself in less than a century, if not sooner, then go ahead, make the case for it. :coffee:
Its a selling point for us, why not for them? :?
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

SDHornet wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:04 am
houndawg wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:21 am

You wouldn't say that if you were old enough to remember the early days of space flight. It was all-Soviet all the time while our shit was blowing up on the launch pad :coffee:
Yup. The commies were first to get a satellite to orbit the earth, and I think first to get a human in orbit too. But we won the long game so, 'Merica!!!!
And the commies were killing astronauts at a breakneck pace, we just didn’t hear about the failures....only the intermittent successes. If we’d used those same parameters we’d have had people in space years before.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

Outstanding read on the GOP. It’s not just fracturing. It may already be two parties.
In fact the riot was a deus ex machina that lifted the curse of Trump from the careers of conservative war hawks and rightwing young lions whose higher ambitions have been fettered by the presidential cult.

By the White House’s Führerprinzip standards, Trump’s former praetorian guard – senators Tom Cotton, Chuck Grassley, Mike Lee, Ben Sasse, Marco Rubio and Jim Lankford – are now traitors beyond the pale. Ironically this frees them to become potential presidential contenders in a still far-right but post-Trump party. Moreover their path has been eased by Ted Cruz’s stupid and self-destructive decision to pose as leader of the president’s angry mob.

The resumed joint session on Wednesday night and Thursday morning was the et tu, Brute? moment as former hardcore Trumpites, including half of the “stolen election” crew, imitated Biden’s call for “a return to decency” and denounced the actions of the zombified plain folk whom they had hours earlier applauded as patriots.

Let’s be clear about what happened: the monolith has cracked and the Republican party is splitting up. Preparations for this have been in progress since the election, with various conservative elites loosely but energetically conspiring to take back power from the Trump family. Big business especially has been burning its bridges to the White House in the wake of the Covid-19 disaster and Trump’s chaotic war on constitutional government.

The most sensational defection involves that bedrock Republican institution, the National Association of Manufacturers. While the riot was in progress, they called upon Pence to use the 25th amendment to depose Trump. Of course, they had been happy enough during the first three years of his regime to enjoy the colossal tax cuts, comprehensive rollbacks of environmental and labor regulation, and trade sanctions on China, but the last year brought the unavoidable recognition that the White House was wildly incapable of managing major national crises or ensuring basic economic and political stability.

The goal is to realign power within the party more closely with traditional capitalist power centers such as NAM and the Business Roundtable as well as with the Koch family, long uncomfortable with Trump. However, there should be no illusion that “moderate Republicans” have suddenly been raised from the grave; the emerging project will preserve the core alliance between Christian evangelicals and economic conservatives and presumably defend most of the Trump-era legislation.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... iDLm0Z4Mhk
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:16 am Outstanding read on the GOP. It’s not just fracturing. It may already be two parties.
In fact the riot was a deus ex machina that lifted the curse of Trump from the careers of conservative war hawks and rightwing young lions whose higher ambitions have been fettered by the presidential cult.

By the White House’s Führerprinzip standards, Trump’s former praetorian guard – senators Tom Cotton, Chuck Grassley, Mike Lee, Ben Sasse, Marco Rubio and Jim Lankford – are now traitors beyond the pale. Ironically this frees them to become potential presidential contenders in a still far-right but post-Trump party. Moreover their path has been eased by Ted Cruz’s stupid and self-destructive decision to pose as leader of the president’s angry mob.

The resumed joint session on Wednesday night and Thursday morning was the et tu, Brute? moment as former hardcore Trumpites, including half of the “stolen election” crew, imitated Biden’s call for “a return to decency” and denounced the actions of the zombified plain folk whom they had hours earlier applauded as patriots.

Let’s be clear about what happened: the monolith has cracked and the Republican party is splitting up. Preparations for this have been in progress since the election, with various conservative elites loosely but energetically conspiring to take back power from the Trump family. Big business especially has been burning its bridges to the White House in the wake of the Covid-19 disaster and Trump’s chaotic war on constitutional government.

The most sensational defection involves that bedrock Republican institution, the National Association of Manufacturers. While the riot was in progress, they called upon Pence to use the 25th amendment to depose Trump. Of course, they had been happy enough during the first three years of his regime to enjoy the colossal tax cuts, comprehensive rollbacks of environmental and labor regulation, and trade sanctions on China, but the last year brought the unavoidable recognition that the White House was wildly incapable of managing major national crises or ensuring basic economic and political stability.

The goal is to realign power within the party more closely with traditional capitalist power centers such as NAM and the Business Roundtable as well as with the Koch family, long uncomfortable with Trump. However, there should be no illusion that “moderate Republicans” have suddenly been raised from the grave; the emerging project will preserve the core alliance between Christian evangelicals and economic conservatives and presumably defend most of the Trump-era legislation.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... iDLm0Z4Mhk
I think both parties have or are about to split into two parties each....the next 6-8 years are going to be very interesting..... :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by BDKJMU »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:23 pm
kalm wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:16 am Outstanding read on the GOP. It’s not just fracturing. It may already be two parties.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... iDLm0Z4Mhk
I think both parties have or are about to split into two parties each....the next 6-8 years are going to be very interesting..... :coffee:
So who are the 4 parties going to be then?
Would the Libertarians be absorbed into one?
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by Gil Dobie »

Republican Base does not equal the Trump Base.
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