The Republican Base

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SDHornet
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

Skjellyfetti wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:37 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:23 pmGovernment control (not necessarily ownership) of the means of production and distribution.
Does that have to be 100% control of means of production and distribution to be socialist by your definition? If a country has 75% government control of the means of production and distribution, for example, they are not socialist?

It's a continuum. Communism is at one end, as close to 100% as you can get.

Nordic countries are more socialist than the United States, but less socialist than the Soviet Union.

China was ~100% government control of the means of production and distribution. .China opened up industry in the 1980s and 1990s and became less socialist and more capitalist. They didn't cease being socialist and become wholly capitalist. They moved on the spectrum.

Bernie and AOC do not think we should be Communists and have 100% government control of the means of production. They do think we should be more socialist, imo. You do not think we should be 0% socialist either. We argue about how socialist we should be vs. how purely capitalist we should be.
China utilizes literal slave labor. Might want to not include them as an example. Just sayin'. :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:23 pm
kalm wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:15 pm

Which socialism are we talking about? Define large scale.
Government control (not necessarily ownership) of the means of production and distribution.

I'll tell you what large scale isn't. An Israeli Kibbutz is not large scale. Liechtenstein or some other small, relatively homogenous country is not large scale.
Define control please.

And what about large scale socialist segments of an economy that are larger than most country’s populations?
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:12 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:23 pm
Government control (not necessarily ownership) of the means of production and distribution.

I'll tell you what large scale isn't. An Israeli Kibbutz is not large scale. Liechtenstein or some other small, relatively homogenous country is not large scale.
Define control please.

And what about large scale socialist segments of an economy that are larger than most country’s populations?
I'm not going to let you bog me down in define this, define that, and on and on. Time to put up or shut up. :poke: :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:43 am
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:12 am

Define control please.

And what about large scale socialist segments of an economy that are larger than most country’s populations?
I'm not going to let you bog me down in define this, define that, and on and on. Time to put up or shut up. :poke: :coffee:
Not my fault you asked a very imprecise question. I’m just asking for clarity so I can provide an honest answer.

It’s how so many economic discussions go with conservatives.

“What’s the issue?”

“Crumbling infrastructure, bankruptcy inducing healthcare system, trillions in college debt, ineffective logistical response to a pandemic, out of control public debt saddling future generations, cancer, disease prevention, designated hitter rule, and inconsistent targeting penalties!!!”

Answer:

“Less government! Cut taxes on the rich!”
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:44 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:43 am
I'm not going to let you bog me down in define this, define that, and on and on. Time to put up or shut up. :poke: :coffee:
Not my fault you asked a very imprecise question. I’m just asking for clarity so I can provide an honest answer.

It’s how so many economic discussions go with conservatives.

“What’s the issue?”

“Crumbling infrastructure, bankruptcy inducing healthcare system, trillions in college debt, ineffective logistical response to a pandemic, out of control public debt saddling future generations, cancer, disease prevention, designated hitter rule, and inconsistent targeting penalties!!!”

Answer:

“Less government! Cut taxes on the rich!”
Deflect and avoid = you've got nothing. :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:44 pm
kalm wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:44 am

Not my fault you asked a very imprecise question. I’m just asking for clarity so I can provide an honest answer.

It’s how so many economic discussions go with conservatives.

“What’s the issue?”

“Crumbling infrastructure, bankruptcy inducing healthcare system, trillions in college debt, ineffective logistical response to a pandemic, out of control public debt saddling future generations, cancer, disease prevention, designated hitter rule, and inconsistent targeting penalties!!!”

Answer:

“Less government! Cut taxes on the rich!”
Deflect and avoid = you've got nothing. :coffee:
Help me...help you... :lol:

Has government control (not ownership) of the means of production and distribution ever worked on a large scale?

Yes. Bombers and tanks in WWII. The RR act. The US Forestry Service. The interstate highway system, Statoil.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:03 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:44 pm

Deflect and avoid = you've got nothing. :coffee:
Help me...help you... :lol:

Has government control (not ownership) of the means of production and distribution ever worked on a large scale?

Yes. Bombers and tanks in WWII. The RR act. The US Forestry Service. The interstate highway system, Statoil.
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am
kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:03 am

Help me...help you... :lol:

Has government control (not ownership) of the means of production and distribution ever worked on a large scale?

Yes. Bombers and tanks in WWII. The RR act. The US Forestry Service. The interstate highway system, Statoil.
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
California's fires more than likely were no worse this year than before settlement. They're just now affecting the two legged critters. The USFS has withstood constant bombardment from both the environmental terrorists and natural resource extractors. A friend from the Libby area is a retired forest service worker who's a bit of hippy chick but hates the environmental movement and voted for Trump. Fine line to walk but there's more to it than fire suppression.

You don't get to use the current state of neglect for interstates. It was a grand idea for it's time that more than paid for itself and is still benefiting us today. Big government built that.

Good thing we had strong leadership centralized power in WWII. Too bad we don't have it currently. Eh....comrade? :lol:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:03 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
California's fires more than likely were no worse this year than before settlement. They're just now affecting the two legged critters. The USFS has withstood constant bombardment from both the environmental terrorists and natural resource extractors. A friend from the Libby area is a retired forest service worker who's a bit of hippy chick but hates the environmental movement and voted for Trump. Fine line to walk but there's more to it than fire suppression.

You don't get to use the current state of neglect for interstates. It was a grand idea for it's time that more than paid for itself and is still benefiting us today. Big government built that.

Good thing we had strong leadership centralized power in WWII. Too bad we don't have it currently. Eh....comrade? :lol:
Are you really arguing that an individual government agency, project or effort = socialism?

The government can and does do great things it's just that IMO the more that you ask the government to do the less effective it becomes.

And how does fire prevention and control on USFS lands compare to that on tribal lands? Driving from Portland to Bend you can see the difference in how the underbrush is managed on Warm Springs Reservation just to the southeast of Mt. Hood.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:03 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am

You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
California's fires more than likely were no worse this year than before settlement. They're just now affecting the two legged critters. The USFS has withstood constant bombardment from both the environmental terrorists and natural resource extractors. A friend from the Libby area is a retired forest service worker who's a bit of hippy chick but hates the environmental movement and voted for Trump. Fine line to walk but there's more to it than fire suppression.

You don't get to use the current state of neglect for interstates. It was a grand idea for it's time that more than paid for itself and is still benefiting us today. Big government built that.

Good thing we had strong leadership centralized power in WWII. Too bad we don't have it currently. Eh....comrade? :lol:
Big government doesn’t build anything. Yet. THAT would be socialism. They just redistribute OUR money so private contractors can be paid.

I’ll use whatever I want to make a point. Was the interstate a big government “idea’? Sure, maybe. But like anything else the government touches, they build it, then never considered the costs to maintain. Because of the way our government thinks/functions, they NEVER consider long-term ramifications of ANY idea. It’s why they suck at everything. But they do occasionally hold a state hostage over something to get their “matching funds” (which ALSO come from us, by the way).

And government (combined with envirowackos) have totally decimated California and our national parks. Complete elimination of thinning and managing forests, combined with a “let it burn” mentality, has destroyed tens of millions of acres of useable, valuable timber, one of the few truly renewable resources (when managed correctly). The approach taken by blue states like California is a complete goat rope and will always be held up as a horrid example of the result of government overreach and cowtowing to the dipshit environmentalists.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:22 pm
kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:03 pm

California's fires more than likely were no worse this year than before settlement. They're just now affecting the two legged critters. The USFS has withstood constant bombardment from both the environmental terrorists and natural resource extractors. A friend from the Libby area is a retired forest service worker who's a bit of hippy chick but hates the environmental movement and voted for Trump. Fine line to walk but there's more to it than fire suppression.

You don't get to use the current state of neglect for interstates. It was a grand idea for it's time that more than paid for itself and is still benefiting us today. Big government built that.

Good thing we had strong leadership centralized power in WWII. Too bad we don't have it currently. Eh....comrade? :lol:
Are you really arguing that an individual government agency, project or effort = socialism?

The government can and does do great things it's just that IMO the more that you ask the government to do the less effective it becomes.

And how does fire prevention and control on USFS lands compare to that on tribal lands? Driving from Portland to Bend you can see the difference in how the underbrush is managed on Warm Springs Reservation just to the southeast of Mt. Hood.
1). No. That’s why I asked you to clarify your question.

2). Agree completely.

3). Are tribal lands managed by tribal governments?
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:29 pm
kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:03 pm

California's fires more than likely were no worse this year than before settlement. They're just now affecting the two legged critters. The USFS has withstood constant bombardment from both the environmental terrorists and natural resource extractors. A friend from the Libby area is a retired forest service worker who's a bit of hippy chick but hates the environmental movement and voted for Trump. Fine line to walk but there's more to it than fire suppression.

You don't get to use the current state of neglect for interstates. It was a grand idea for it's time that more than paid for itself and is still benefiting us today. Big government built that.

Good thing we had strong leadership centralized power in WWII. Too bad we don't have it currently. Eh....comrade? :lol:
Big government doesn’t build anything. Yet. THAT would be socialism. They just redistribute OUR money so private contractors can be paid.

I’ll use whatever I want to make a point. Was the interstate a big government “idea’? Sure, maybe. But like anything else the government touches, they build it, then never considered the costs to maintain. Because of the way our government thinks/functions, they NEVER consider long-term ramifications of ANY idea. It’s why they suck at everything. But they do occasionally hold a state hostage over something to get their “matching funds” (which ALSO come from us, by the way).

And government (combined with envirowackos) have totally decimated California and our national parks. Complete elimination of thinning and managing forests, combined with a “let it burn” mentality, has destroyed tens of millions of acres of useable, valuable timber, one of the few truly renewable resources (when managed correctly). The approach taken by blue states like California is a complete goat rope and will always be held up as a horrid example of the result of government overreach and cowtowing to the dipshit environmentalists.
Good lord you’re all over the map. :lol:

Big government redistributes our money via crony capitalism to build things. It’s a corrupt system and mixed economy hybrid that’s still better than socialism.

An Interstate Highway system was a great idea who’s creators are all dead. Its stewardship has past through decades of different administrations. Some better than others at maintenance and expansion. It still works, is repaired constantly, and needs some additional TLC.

But government bad is so much easier to whine about.

We have so much timber we’ve been selling it to China for years. Your concern for the extraction and $$$’s.....oops I mean national heritage and parks notwithstanding.

:coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:02 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:29 pm

Big government doesn’t build anything. Yet. THAT would be socialism. They just redistribute OUR money so private contractors can be paid.

I’ll use whatever I want to make a point. Was the interstate a big government “idea’? Sure, maybe. But like anything else the government touches, they build it, then never considered the costs to maintain. Because of the way our government thinks/functions, they NEVER consider long-term ramifications of ANY idea. It’s why they suck at everything. But they do occasionally hold a state hostage over something to get their “matching funds” (which ALSO come from us, by the way).

And government (combined with envirowackos) have totally decimated California and our national parks. Complete elimination of thinning and managing forests, combined with a “let it burn” mentality, has destroyed tens of millions of acres of useable, valuable timber, one of the few truly renewable resources (when managed correctly). The approach taken by blue states like California is a complete goat rope and will always be held up as a horrid example of the result of government overreach and cowtowing to the dipshit environmentalists.
Good lord you’re all over the map. :lol:

Big government redistributes our money via crony capitalism to build things. It’s a corrupt system and mixed economy hybrid that’s still better than socialism.

An Interstate Highway system was a great idea who’s creators are all dead. Its stewardship has past through decades of different administrations. Some better than others at maintenance and expansion. It still works, is repaired constantly, and needs some additional TLC.

But government bad is so much easier to whine about.

We have so much timber we’ve been selling it to China for years. Your concern for the extraction and $$$’s.....oops I mean national heritage and parks notwithstanding.

:coffee:
Mmmm Kay. That’s why all our lumber mills and loggers are no longer milling and logging. :dunce: :dunce:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am
kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:03 am

Help me...help you... :lol:

Has government control (not ownership) of the means of production and distribution ever worked on a large scale?

Yes. Bombers and tanks in WWII. The RR act. The US Forestry Service. The interstate highway system, Statoil.
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
So much for all of those "accomplishments" under Trump, eh? I would think improving Air and Water quality has been good. Curbing the spread of communism and the downfall of the USSR. Child labor and unsafe working conditions have been eliminated/greatly improved. Consumer protections. There might be a few things that the government has gotten involved in and it's improved.
Spoiler: show
The governments involvement in the creation of interstate system and the ongoing maintenance are 2 different things. Besides, aren't the states on the hook for much of the maintenance?

Regardless of WHY we had to nationalize the means of production, governments involvement in the war production was a success.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:46 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am

You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
So much for all of those "accomplishments" under Trump, eh? I would think improving Air and Water quality has been good. Curbing the spread of communism and the downfall of the USSR. Child labor and unsafe working conditions have been eliminated/greatly improved. Consumer protections. There might be a few things that the government has gotten involved in and it's improved.
Spoiler: show
The governments involvement in the creation of interstate system and the ongoing maintenance are 2 different things. Besides, aren't the states on the hook for much of the maintenance?

Regardless of WHY we had to nationalize the means of production, governments involvement in the war production was a success.
Reason. :nod:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

Circling back to the thread topic.

We are witnessing in real time the destruction of the Republican Party. It will remain in some form but severely fractured due to the cult.

That’s not a good thing when it comes to balance and hopeful post cold civil war reunification.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:46 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
So much for all of those "accomplishments" under Trump, eh? I would think improving Air and Water quality has been good. Curbing the spread of communism and the downfall of the USSR. Child labor and unsafe working conditions have been eliminated/greatly improved. Consumer protections. There might be a few things that the government has gotten involved in and it's improved.
Spoiler: show
The governments involvement in the creation of interstate system and the ongoing maintenance are 2 different things. Besides, aren't the states on the hook for much of the maintenance?

Regardless of WHY we had to nationalize the means of production, governments involvement in the war production was a success.
I don't disagree but is that socialism? How was it funded? Strictly by the government or using revenue from taxes on capitalist markets? Does it prove that socialism works?

To me socialism involves more than targeted or short-term government involvement in the means of production and distribution.

If Kalm or anyone else wants to prove that socialism works? They should give examples of widespread, long-term government control of the means of productions and distribution.

I'll keep waiting ... :coffee:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:53 am Circling back to the thread topic.

We are witnessing in real time the destruction of the Republican Party. It will remain in some form but severely fractured due to the cult.

That’s not a good thing when it comes to balance and hopeful post cold civil war reunification.
Man, it's like you're trolling for JSO. First you call him the most rational person on the board (which at least clearly takes you out of the running for that award) and then you echo his trope about the destruction of the GOP.

Make no mistake, they are at a pretty low point - out of the White House, out of both houses of Congress, and they are reeling from the utter despicableness of yesterday's insurrection. But you're looking at it with a real narrow focus. Big picture, the GOP almost took back the House in a year where the President was a huge drain on the ticket, they almost held on to the Senate, and even now it's just 50/50 with enough blue dog Democratic Senators that you're not going to see any seismic changes in the Senate (no filibuster removal, no SCOTUS packing, no Senate packing, heck, you might actually see compromise when it comes to SCOTUS openings as well). And at the state level, the GOP is even better off in terms of governor's mansions and legislative control.

Compare this to 2009 - Obama was sworn into office with both houses of Congress, including a super majority in the Senate that meant the GOP had zero say at the federal level, and they didn't have anywhere near the advantage they do now at the state level. Articles then were being written about whether the GOP could even be called a major party anymore (precursors of JSO's one party rule for a generation prediction). By the 2010 election, the GOP had won back the House, picked up a shocking 7 seats in the Senate, ending the filibuster-proof majority, and would eventually take the Senate an the White House in ensuing years.

IMO, the GOP doesn't even need to be a reputable party. Never underestimate the power of the duopoly in this country. We've never had a period of one party control that has lasted very long in this country. Some of that is due to politicians being, well, politicians. And the current crop of Democrats have enough kooks and career politicians in their party to be at risk of of that. And second, people will always argue and take sides. Even when there weren't sides to take, like back in the 1810's when the Democrats had basically killed off the Federalists, the Dems fought with themselves and the Jacksonian part of the party splintered off.

Maybe it's human nature, maybe it's the nature of Americans, but we're always going to have two sides. Given the narrowness of government right now, and Joe's advanced age, it's not crazy to think the GOP could sweep the federal elections in 2024 and flip what we see today.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:28 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:46 am
So much for all of those "accomplishments" under Trump, eh? I would think improving Air and Water quality has been good. Curbing the spread of communism and the downfall of the USSR. Child labor and unsafe working conditions have been eliminated/greatly improved. Consumer protections. There might be a few things that the government has gotten involved in and it's improved.
Spoiler: show
The governments involvement in the creation of interstate system and the ongoing maintenance are 2 different things. Besides, aren't the states on the hook for much of the maintenance?

Regardless of WHY we had to nationalize the means of production, governments involvement in the war production was a success.
I don't disagree but is that socialism? How was it funded? Strictly by the government or using revenue from taxes on capitalist markets? Does it prove that socialism works?

To me socialism involves more than targeted or short-term government involvement in the means of production and distribution.

If Kalm or anyone else wants to prove that socialism works? They should give examples of widespread, long-term government control of the means of productions and distribution.

I'll keep waiting ... :coffee:
Um...that’s all you had to ask in the beginning.

Also, define long term. :lol:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:39 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:28 am
I don't disagree but is that socialism? How was it funded? Strictly by the government or using revenue from taxes on capitalist markets? Does it prove that socialism works?

To me socialism involves more than targeted or short-term government involvement in the means of production and distribution.

If Kalm or anyone else wants to prove that socialism works? They should give examples of widespread, long-term government control of the means of productions and distribution.

I'll keep waiting ... :coffee:
Um...that’s all you had to ask in the beginning.

Also, define long term. :lol:
Long term is longer than it took for EWU to finally beat UNI in football (i.e. more than 31 years). :poke:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:45 am
kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:39 am

Um...that’s all you had to ask in the beginning.

Also, define long term. :lol:
Long term is longer than it took for EWU to finally beat UNI in football (i.e. more than 31 years). :poke:
I don’t think socialism works, but didn’t the Soviet Space program kick some ass for awhile? Sadly, like UNI they just couldn’t manage to ever finish #1.

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Re: The Republican Base

Post by Ibanez »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:28 am
Ibanez wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:46 am
So much for all of those "accomplishments" under Trump, eh? I would think improving Air and Water quality has been good. Curbing the spread of communism and the downfall of the USSR. Child labor and unsafe working conditions have been eliminated/greatly improved. Consumer protections. There might be a few things that the government has gotten involved in and it's improved.
Spoiler: show
The governments involvement in the creation of interstate system and the ongoing maintenance are 2 different things. Besides, aren't the states on the hook for much of the maintenance?

Regardless of WHY we had to nationalize the means of production, governments involvement in the war production was a success.
I don't disagree but is that socialism? How was it funded? Strictly by the government or using revenue from taxes on capitalist markets? Does it prove that socialism works?

To me socialism involves more than targeted or short-term government involvement in the means of production and distribution.

If Kalm or anyone else wants to prove that socialism works? They should give examples of widespread, long-term government control of the means of productions and distribution.

I'll keep waiting ... :coffee:
No, that's not socialism. Socialism isn't a momentary thing. It's long term. And I would go further and say merely having the government involved isn't' enough - it requires government ownership. The Government didn't take over and own Steinway Pianos or the Ford Motor Company during WW2. Socialism isn't government involvement in the means of production, socialism is the government IS the means of production.

By our metrics - socialism does not work. To me - it does not work.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

GannonFan wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:39 am
kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:53 am Circling back to the thread topic.

We are witnessing in real time the destruction of the Republican Party. It will remain in some form but severely fractured due to the cult.

That’s not a good thing when it comes to balance and hopeful post cold civil war reunification.
Man, it's like you're trolling for JSO. First you call him the most rational person on the board (which at least clearly takes you out of the running for that award) and then you echo his trope about the destruction of the GOP.

Make no mistake, they are at a pretty low point - out of the White House, out of both houses of Congress, and they are reeling from the utter despicableness of yesterday's insurrection. But you're looking at it with a real narrow focus. Big picture, the GOP almost took back the House in a year where the President was a huge drain on the ticket, they almost held on to the Senate, and even now it's just 50/50 with enough blue dog Democratic Senators that you're not going to see any seismic changes in the Senate (no filibuster removal, no SCOTUS packing, no Senate packing, heck, you might actually see compromise when it comes to SCOTUS openings as well). And at the state level, the GOP is even better off in terms of governor's mansions and legislative control.

Compare this to 2009 - Obama was sworn into office with both houses of Congress, including a super majority in the Senate that meant the GOP had zero say at the federal level, and they didn't have anywhere near the advantage they do now at the state level. Articles then were being written about whether the GOP could even be called a major party anymore (precursors of JSO's one party rule for a generation prediction). By the 2010 election, the GOP had won back the House, picked up a shocking 7 seats in the Senate, ending the filibuster-proof majority, and would eventually take the Senate an the White House in ensuing years.

IMO, the GOP doesn't even need to be a reputable party. Never underestimate the power of the duopoly in this country. We've never had a period of one party control that has lasted very long in this country. Some of that is due to politicians being, well, politicians. And the current crop of Democrats have enough kooks and career politicians in their party to be at risk of of that. And second, people will always argue and take sides. Even when there weren't sides to take, like back in the 1810's when the Democrats had basically killed off the Federalists, the Dems fought with themselves and the Jacksonian part of the party splintered off.

Maybe it's human nature, maybe it's the nature of Americans, but we're always going to have two sides. Given the narrowness of government right now, and Joe's advanced age, it's not crazy to think the GOP could sweep the federal elections in 2024 and flip what we see today.
Excellent post. I think the problem with the GOP going forward is how they deal with the populism fallout that will follow Trump out the door. Even before yesterdays awful showing, it was obvious that the normal cast of characters (see establishment conks) had no will to push back against or inquire into any of the questionable issues surrounding the election, even the legit issues (PA and other state election law changes outside of their respective legislature). IMO that's the biggest issue the GOP faces.

In addition to the populism loss factor, you'll have plenty of people questioning if voting even maters. Now you are seeing the GOP trying to cleanse itself of those that were questioning the election results/practices as if they should have never been questioned in the first place. If the people feel disenfranchised, they'll tune out. If the GOP retreats to Bush II era policies and narratives (think Romney and other proven establishment losers), the GOP will be in major trouble.
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:52 am
UNI88 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:45 am

Long term is longer than it took for EWU to finally beat UNI in football (i.e. more than 31 years). :poke:
I don’t think socialism works, but didn’t the Soviet Space program kick some ass for awhile? Sadly, like UNI they just couldn’t manage to ever finish #1.

:kisswink:
You’re kidding with the Soviet space program thing, right? :dunce: :dunce:
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Re: The Republican Base

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 am
kalm wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:03 am

Help me...help you... :lol:

Has government control (not ownership) of the means of production and distribution ever worked on a large scale?

Yes. Bombers and tanks in WWII. The RR act. The US Forestry Service. The interstate highway system, Statoil.
You think the Forestry Service works? CA’s fires might beg to differ. The interstate system is a crumbling wreck. Bombers and tankers in WWII took a world despot to get us to play.

There’s not a single thing government involvement in has improved. Not one.
And the proof is right there in the government interference-free economy of powerhouses like Somalia
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