The Republican Base

Political discussions
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:06 am
Ctrl-left socialists/marxists (Bernie Bois, followers of the Squad, founders of the blm organization, etc.) are just as much of a cult(s) and they're more numerous than you want to admit. They don't want well-regulated capitalism, they want to end capitalism.
They want the Nordic model. Conservatives like to say that the Nordic model isn't socialism. They can't say it's socialist because then they'd have to say that there are examples of socialism working pretty well. And maybe it's not socialism. But that's what Sanders & Co. are arguing for. That's the kind of government they want.

BTW, if somebody tries to establish the Nordic model in the United States conservatives are going to call it socialism.
Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
They want the Nordic model. Conservatives like to say that the Nordic model isn't socialism. They can't say it's socialist because then they'd have to say that there are examples of socialism working pretty well. And maybe it's not socialism. But that's what Sanders & Co. are arguing for. That's the kind of government they want.

BTW, if somebody tries to establish the Nordic model in the United States conservatives are going to call it socialism.
Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Slippery slope and Bernie the Secret Socialist arguments aside, the closest he gets to reflecting your darkest fears is point 3 of this article.

In general though, I don’t think that label means what you think it means to at least Bernie.
“All that socialism means to me, to be very frank with you, is democracy with a small ‘d.’ I believe in democracy, and by democracy I mean that, to as great an extent as possible, human beings have the right to control their own lives. And that means that you cannot separate the political structure from the economic structure. One has to be an idiot to believe that the average working person who’s making $10,000 or $12,000 a year is equal in political power to somebody who is the head of a large bank or corporation. So if you believe in political democracy, if you believe in equality, you have to believe in economic democracy as well.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/ ... ism-120265
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:53 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Slippery slope and Bernie the Secret Socialist arguments aside, the closest he gets to reflecting your darkest fears is point 3 of this article.

In general though, I don’t think that label means what you think it means to at least Bernie.
“All that socialism means to me, to be very frank with you, is democracy with a small ‘d.’ I believe in democracy, and by democracy I mean that, to as great an extent as possible, human beings have the right to control their own lives. And that means that you cannot separate the political structure from the economic structure. One has to be an idiot to believe that the average working person who’s making $10,000 or $12,000 a year is equal in political power to somebody who is the head of a large bank or corporation. So if you believe in political democracy, if you believe in equality, you have to believe in economic democracy as well.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/ ... ism-120265
Well, in America those two people are a LOT closer to “equal” than they are in other socialist/communist countries. :nod: :nod:
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Slippery slope and Bernie the Secret Socialist arguments aside, the closest he gets to reflecting your darkest fears is point 3 of this article.

In general though, I don’t think that label means what you think it means to at least Bernie.
“All that socialism means to me, to be very frank with you, is democracy with a small ‘d.’ I believe in democracy, and by democracy I mean that, to as great an extent as possible, human beings have the right to control their own lives. And that means that you cannot separate the political structure from the economic structure. One has to be an idiot to believe that the average working person who’s making $10,000 or $12,000 a year is equal in political power to somebody who is the head of a large bank or corporation. So if you believe in political democracy, if you believe in equality, you have to believe in economic democracy as well.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/ ... ism-120265
What exactly does economic democracy mean? It definitely hints at equal outcomes to me.

I believe in our democratic republic and in equal opportunities not equal outcomes.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:57 pm
kalm wrote:
Slippery slope and Bernie the Secret Socialist arguments aside, the closest he gets to reflecting your darkest fears is point 3 of this article.

In general though, I don’t think that label means what you think it means to at least Bernie.



https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/ ... ism-120265
What exactly does economic democracy mean? It definitely hints at equal outcomes to me.

I believe in our democratic republic and in equal opportunities not equal outcomes.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
I took it at face value. You can’t separate political democracy from economic democracy. Don’t make me post Princeton Northwestern study on policy outcomes heavily favoring the wealthy, again. :mrgreen:

Economic opportunity might be tough to measure but without looking it up I seem to remember economic/class mobility isn’t all that great compared to other countries.
Image
Image
Image
houndawg
Level5
Level5
Posts: 23236
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:14 pm
I am a fan of: SIU
A.K.A.: houndawg
Location: Egypt

Re: The Republican Base

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:05 am
kalm wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:53 am

Slippery slope and Bernie the Secret Socialist arguments aside, the closest he gets to reflecting your darkest fears is point 3 of this article.

In general though, I don’t think that label means what you think it means to at least Bernie.



https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/ ... ism-120265
Well, in America those two people are a LOT closer to “equal” than they are in other socialist/communist countries. :nod: :nod:
They're closer in the Scandanavian countries than they are in America. :coffee:
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:50 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:05 am

Well, in America those two people are a LOT closer to “equal” than they are in other socialist/communist countries. :nod: :nod:
They're closer in the Scandanavian countries than they are in America. :coffee:
And again, they CAN be, because WE pay for their defense. Let every country pay for their OWN defense and then lets see how much extra they have to piss away on these ever-popular social programs. We’ve spent ourselves into oblivion protecting the entire free world, meanwhile they’ve spent THEIR money improving their citizens’ lives. And when we DO have a crisis, what happens? Our benevolent government passes a bill that has more pork for FOREIGN countries in it than it does relief for its own citizens.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:37 pm
houndawg wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:50 pm

They're closer in the Scandanavian countries than they are in America. :coffee:
And again, they CAN be, because WE pay for their defense. Let every country pay for their OWN defense and then lets see how much extra they have to piss away on these ever-popular social programs. We’ve spent ourselves into oblivion protecting the entire free world, meanwhile they’ve spent THEIR money improving their citizens’ lives. And when we DO have a crisis, what happens? Our benevolent government passes a bill that has more pork for FOREIGN countries in it than it does relief for its own citizens.
It was a choice. Just like over-spending is a choice now. That over-spending is wedded to campaign finance.
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:21 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:37 pm

And again, they CAN be, because WE pay for their defense. Let every country pay for their OWN defense and then lets see how much extra they have to piss away on these ever-popular social programs. We’ve spent ourselves into oblivion protecting the entire free world, meanwhile they’ve spent THEIR money improving their citizens’ lives. And when we DO have a crisis, what happens? Our benevolent government passes a bill that has more pork for FOREIGN countries in it than it does relief for its own citizens.
It was a choice. Just like over-spending is a choice now. That over-spending is wedded to campaign finance.
Yes, it was a choice. And whenever a politician attempts to correct that choice, they’re pilloried and treated like the devil. So what’s the answer? How do we get out of this vicious cycle?
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

JohnStOnge wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:02 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:55 pm

Question: Do you have the same issue with the way China has involved themselves in the 2020 election in support of Biden? Or is that a “nothing”?
I have no reason to believe China has involved itself in the same way. Let me know if they have an investigation that suggests that was the case. Let me know if they end up with a report saying Biden's campaign manager provided internal campaign polling data on key swing states with a Chinese intelligence operative.
:lol:

:dunce:
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: The Republican Base

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
They want the Nordic model. Conservatives like to say that the Nordic model isn't socialism. They can't say it's socialist because then they'd have to say that there are examples of socialism working pretty well. And maybe it's not socialism. But that's what Sanders & Co. are arguing for. That's the kind of government they want.

BTW, if somebody tries to establish the Nordic model in the United States conservatives are going to call it socialism.
Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
:nod:
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 27897
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: The Republican Base

Post by BDKJMU »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
They want the Nordic model. Conservatives like to say that the Nordic model isn't socialism. They can't say it's socialist because then they'd have to say that there are examples of socialism working pretty well. And maybe it's not socialism. But that's what Sanders & Co. are arguing for. That's the kind of government they want.

BTW, if somebody tries to establish the Nordic model in the United States conservatives are going to call it socialism.
Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Including funded by US tax dollars (we pay for the bulk of Europe's defense & therefore they are able to spend more for their social welfare programs).
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

BDKJMU wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:46 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm
Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
Including funded by US tax dollars (we pay for the bulk of Europe's defense & therefore they are able to spend more for their social welfare programs).
AZGrizFan wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:37 pm And again, they CAN be, because WE pay for their defense. Let every country pay for their OWN defense and then lets see how much extra they have to piss away on these ever-popular social programs. We’ve spent ourselves into oblivion protecting the entire free world, meanwhile they’ve spent THEIR money improving their citizens’ lives. And when we DO have a crisis, what happens? Our benevolent government passes a bill that has more pork for FOREIGN countries in it than it does relief for its own citizens.
You've been BDK'ed. Go to your room without dessert. No Judge Wapner for a week.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

Is Trump a Republican?

Trump squeezes Republicans with eye on 2022 primaries
Now, it’s becoming clearer that Trump’s cash-flush PAC could be deployed in two years against remaining Republican incumbents Trump doesn’t like. Trump’s tweets and public statements have already drummed some GOP officials out of office during his administration, but the PAC could be a potent new tool in his continued quest to shape the party.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20313
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: The Republican Base

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
They want the Nordic model. Conservatives like to say that the Nordic model isn't socialism. They can't say it's socialist because then they'd have to say that there are examples of socialism working pretty well. And maybe it's not socialism. But that's what Sanders & Co. are arguing for. That's the kind of government they want.

BTW, if somebody tries to establish the Nordic model in the United States conservatives are going to call it socialism.
Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
I am very aware of the arguments for why the Nordic model is not socialism. At the same time, mark my words, people who argue for the Nordic model in the United States are going to be labeled by conservatives as "socialist." The point is that what Sanders wants is the Nordic model. He thinks that's "Democratic Socialism." If one disagrees with that, fine. But stop making arguments about the idea that what he's suggesting has never worked. It has.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:34 pm
UNI88 wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm Don't be a putz John. - The nordic model is not socialism. It's strong social welfare programs that are funded by capitalism. The US already has a less robust version of what the nordic countries have. I have no problem with a debate about how robust our social welfare programs should be. I am absolutely opposed to the socialism (government control of the means of production, distribution and sales) that Bernie, the Squat and others want.

FYI - I've read complaints by ctrl-lefters about the profits the pharmaceutical companies will make from covid-19 vaccines. What these idiots don't understand is that the possibility of profit is what drove the rapid development of vaccines. It is extremely unlikely that they would have been developed nearly as quickly in a socialist system.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
I am very aware of the arguments for why the Nordic model is not socialism. At the same time, mark my words, people who argue for the Nordic model in the United States are going to be labeled by conservatives as "socialist." The point is that what Sanders wants is the Nordic model. He thinks that's "Democratic Socialism." If one disagrees with that, fine. But stop making arguments about the idea that what he's suggesting has never worked. It has.
You have a higher opinion of Bernie than I do. I don't think the Nordic model is his end-goal and based on her past statements and memberships, I know it isn't AOChe's goal.

Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: The Republican Base

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:42 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:34 pm

I am very aware of the arguments for why the Nordic model is not socialism. At the same time, mark my words, people who argue for the Nordic model in the United States are going to be labeled by conservatives as "socialist." The point is that what Sanders wants is the Nordic model. He thinks that's "Democratic Socialism." If one disagrees with that, fine. But stop making arguments about the idea that what he's suggesting has never worked. It has.
You have a higher opinion of Bernie than I do. I don't think the Nordic model is his end-goal and based on her past statements and memberships, I know it isn't AOChe's goal.

Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
Correct on all fronts.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:42 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:34 pm

I am very aware of the arguments for why the Nordic model is not socialism. At the same time, mark my words, people who argue for the Nordic model in the United States are going to be labeled by conservatives as "socialist." The point is that what Sanders wants is the Nordic model. He thinks that's "Democratic Socialism." If one disagrees with that, fine. But stop making arguments about the idea that what he's suggesting has never worked. It has.
You have a higher opinion of Bernie than I do. I don't think the Nordic model is his end-goal and based on her past statements and memberships, I know it isn't AOChe's goal.

Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
Please post some of Bernie’s and AOC’s past statements that suggest a desire to move further down the road of Marxism.
Image
Image
Image
houndawg
Level5
Level5
Posts: 23236
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:14 pm
I am a fan of: SIU
A.K.A.: houndawg
Location: Egypt

Re: The Republican Base

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:42 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:34 pm

I am very aware of the arguments for why the Nordic model is not socialism. At the same time, mark my words, people who argue for the Nordic model in the United States are going to be labeled by conservatives as "socialist." The point is that what Sanders wants is the Nordic model. He thinks that's "Democratic Socialism." If one disagrees with that, fine. But stop making arguments about the idea that what he's suggesting has never worked. It has.
You have a higher opinion of Bernie than I do. I don't think the Nordic model is his end-goal and based on her past statements and memberships, I know it isn't AOChe's goal.

Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
Capitalism isn't doing so well right now either, other than the schoolin' the Chinese are giving us
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:57 am
UNI88 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:42 pm
You have a higher opinion of Bernie than I do. I don't think the Nordic model is his end-goal and based on her past statements and memberships, I know it isn't AOChe's goal.

Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
Please post some of Bernie’s and AOC’s past statements that suggest a desire to move further down the road of Marxism.
Bernie - no, I said it was my opinion and it's based on gut feel. It's also my opinion that there is more circumstantial evidence that Bernie is a socialist than there is that Trump is a fascist.

AOChe - '"To me, capitalism is irredeemable". If capitalism is irredeemable, what is the alternative?

AOChe focuses on the negatives and refuses to acknowledge the positives of capitalism and does the opposite for socialism.

Your turn - prove my statement that socialism has never worked on a large scale wrong. :coffee:
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20313
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: The Republican Base

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:42 pm
Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
I think that one could argue that what conservatives typically refer to as "socialism" on a large scale was/is actually fascism. I'm talking about what's in place now in Russia, what was in place in the USSR, what's place in China, what's in place in North Korea. Hitler's party was called the National Socialist German Workers Party but the NAZI Government was fascist.

I don't know if we've every had a true socialist government that did not feature characteristics of fascism such as a strong authoritarian dictator and repression of opposition. The USSR in the past and Russia now, China, and North Korea all feature a dictator. Socialism is simply "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

I do not favor socialism for the United States. However, I don't know if we have a lot of or even any examples of socialism practiced in a way such that one could not argue that it was really fascism. Theoretically, a "Democratic" socialism should be possible. If the Nordic model is not it, and I can see the arguments for why it's not, I don't know that it has been tried.

I think the whole "socialism has never worked thing" is another example of what's become of the conservative movement nowadays. It relies largely on sloganistic, simplistic arguments. I don't know if we can say that pure capitalism has ever worked either. The United States, for example, is not purely "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." The State exercises a lot of control and if it did not the system would not work nearly as well. In fact it would probably be a complete disaster.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: The Republican Base

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:59 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:57 am

Please post some of Bernie’s and AOC’s past statements that suggest a desire to move further down the road of Marxism.
Bernie - no, I said it was my opinion and it's based on gut feel. It's also my opinion that there is more circumstantial evidence that Bernie is a socialist than there is that Trump is a fascist.

AOChe - '"To me, capitalism is irredeemable". If capitalism is irredeemable, what is the alternative?

AOChe focuses on the negatives and refuses to acknowledge the positives of capitalism and does the opposite for socialism.

Your turn - prove my statement that socialism has never worked on a large scale wrong. :coffee:
Which socialism are we talking about? Define large scale.
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:19 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:42 pm
Socialism has never worked on a large scale. Prove me wrong.
I think that one could argue that what conservatives typically refer to as "socialism" on a large scale was/is actually fascism. I'm talking about what's in place now in Russia, what was in place in the USSR, what's place in China, what's in place in North Korea. Hitler's party was called the National Socialist German Workers Party but the NAZI Government was fascist.

I don't know if we've every had a true socialist government that did not feature characteristics of fascism such as a strong authoritarian dictator and repression of opposition. The USSR in the past and Russia now, China, and North Korea all feature a dictator. Socialism is simply "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

I do not favor socialism for the United States. However, I don't know if we have a lot of or even any examples of socialism practiced in a way such that one could not argue that it was really fascism. Theoretically, a "Democratic" socialism should be possible. If the Nordic model is not it, and I can see the arguments for why it's not, I don't know that it has been tried.

I think the whole "socialism has never worked thing" is another example of what's become of the conservative movement nowadays. It relies largely on sloganistic, simplistic arguments. I don't know if we can say that pure capitalism has ever worked either. The United States, for example, is not purely "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." The State exercises a lot of control and if it did not the system would not work nearly as well. In fact it would probably be a complete disaster.
To summarize - I can't prove you wrong so I'm going to vomit up a word salad of bullshit to try and hide the fact while simulataneously blaming conservatives for everything.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: The Republican Base

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:15 pm
UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:59 pm
Bernie - no, I said it was my opinion and it's based on gut feel. It's also my opinion that there is more circumstantial evidence that Bernie is a socialist than there is that Trump is a fascist.

AOChe - '"To me, capitalism is irredeemable". If capitalism is irredeemable, what is the alternative?

AOChe focuses on the negatives and refuses to acknowledge the positives of capitalism and does the opposite for socialism.

Your turn - prove my statement that socialism has never worked on a large scale wrong. :coffee:
Which socialism are we talking about? Define large scale.
Government control (not necessarily ownership) of the means of production and distribution.

I'll tell you what large scale isn't. An Israeli Kibbutz is not large scale. Liechtenstein or some other small, relatively homogenous country is not large scale.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
Skjellyfetti
Anal
Anal
Posts: 14411
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:56 pm
I am a fan of: Appalachian

Re: The Republican Base

Post by Skjellyfetti »

UNI88 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:23 pmGovernment control (not necessarily ownership) of the means of production and distribution.
Does that have to be 100% control of means of production and distribution to be socialist by your definition? If a country has 75% government control of the means of production and distribution, for example, they are not socialist?

It's a continuum. Communism is at one end, as close to 100% as you can get.

Nordic countries are more socialist than the United States, but less socialist than the Soviet Union.

China was ~100% government control of the means of production and distribution. .China opened up industry in the 1980s and 1990s and became less socialist and more capitalist. They didn't cease being socialist and become wholly capitalist. They moved on the spectrum.

Bernie and AOC do not think we should be Communists and have 100% government control of the means of production. They do think we should be more socialist, imo. You do not think we should be 0% socialist either. We argue about how socialist we should be vs. how purely capitalist we should be.
"The unmasking thing was all created by Devin Nunes"
- Richard Burr, (R-NC)
Post Reply