POTUS Debate #1

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by ∞∞∞ »

BTW, I finally got around to listening to the debate.

I think Biden was flustered at the beginning, but did fine (nothing notable). He got a bit better as the debate went on.

Trump is a special kind of idiot.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

Vidav wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:23 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:19 pm

Do we ignore them and pretend they're not a problem because they're a movement without defined leadership or structure?

Wasn't Aaron Danielson killed by an Antifa supporter?

Antifa is a hypocritical movement, they claim to be anti-facist but use facist techniques to intimidate their opponents. The violence and looting being done in their name is real and should be addressed and denounced. Trump should absolutely denounce racism and white supremecy and Biden should do the same for the violence and looting committed by followers of the Antifa movement. Calling it "an idea" is a cop-out and tacit approval.
No, we don't ignore them. But I guess I don't see how saying Antifa is an idea (or ideology) is approval.
Failing to denounce them is a cop-out and empowers them which is tacit approval. My guess is that followers of Antifa (or BLM) don't really care for Biden but he is the much lesser of two evils so they're support him. If he calls them out for the violence and looting that happens when their followers are involved they might decide to stay home and he needs their votes. There are similarities with Trump not calling out alt-right groups.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

As noted earlier I was just interested in what the polling would say and did not watch. I knew going in that Trump would act like a 10 year old and lie a lot. From what I heard from my wife and saw on various video clips today maybe I should change that to 6 year old and lied a lot. But not surprising. He acted immature and lied a lot.

At first I was worried because I thought the bullying strategy Trump adopted might work. It shouldn't. But it worked for him the 2015/2016 Republican Primary debates. But I think Biden did fine. So far the available scientific polling indicates viewers thought Biden won.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewst ... 3a983f6b50

I'm a little concerned that the report on the CBS YouGov poll at https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-won-de ... den-trump/ says independents gave Trump the edge in that one. I could not find a way to see the actual details of the poll to see the actual numbers but that is a concern.

However, felt better after I looked at the details of the CNN poll at http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/09/3 ... e.poll.pdf. That one has independents saying Biden won by 50% to 28%. Also has Biden as winning among Democrats by 91% to 4% while Trump "only" won among Republicans by 65% to 25%.

Trump fans tried to claim polling showed Trump won but none of the polls they cited are scientific polls. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... hlighting/.

I saw a Trump guy on TV today citing the Telemundo poll and looked it up at the time. Sure enough, when I found an article on it (https://www.newsweek.com/66-percent-spa ... te-1535176) I saw this:
When the final results were announced on air, Noticias Telemundo prefaced the results by explaining the numbers did not reflect a scientific survey, but instead a real-time online poll among Twitter users.
Also paid attention to how Republicans acted today. They were clearly in damage-control mode. I think Biden could have done better. I saw him get into trading insults with Trump on some of the clips and I think he'd have done better to avoid that. But I think he came out of the first debate alright and I think Trump made a mistake in adopting the strategy he adopted.

Well, I say "strategy" but I don't know if Trump is capable of strategy. Could be it's just what happened in his stream of consciousness world.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 pm
Vidav wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:23 pm


No, we don't ignore them. But I guess I don't see how saying Antifa is an idea (or ideology) is approval.
Failing to denounce them is a cop-out and empowers them which is tacit approval. My guess is that followers of Antifa (or BLM) don't really care for Biden but he is the much lesser of two evils so they're support him. If he calls them out for the violence and looting that happens when their followers are involved they might decide to stay home and he needs their votes. There are similarities with Trump not calling out alt-right groups.
I think he knows that racists, alt right people, etc. are a significant part of his coalition and doesn't want to directly alienate them if he can avoid it.

Remember, he won by extremely narrow margins in a handful of key states last time. Most of the people don't like him and don't want him as President. He is relying on getting maximum turnout from nut jobs.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:37 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 pm

Failing to denounce them is a cop-out and empowers them which is tacit approval. My guess is that followers of Antifa (or BLM) don't really care for Biden but he is the much lesser of two evils so they're support him. If he calls them out for the violence and looting that happens when their followers are involved they might decide to stay home and he needs their votes. There are similarities with Trump not calling out alt-right groups.
I think he knows that extremists, ctrl left people, etc. are a significant part of his coalition and doesn't want to directly alienate them if he can avoid it.
Thank you for highlighting a similarity between Biden and Trump

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:44 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:37 pm


I think he knows that extremists, ctrl left people, etc. are a significant part of his coalition and doesn't want to directly alienate them if he can avoid it.
Thank you for highlighting a similarity between Biden and Trump
There's no real comparison.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SuperHornet »

This so-called "debate" was a complete waste of my time. Trump behaved like a whiny five-year-old, and when Biden wasn't responding in kind, he was proving that his main goal is to turn this nation into a Commie police state.

Is it any wonder why I've been planning a protest vote for the last four years? The only thing this debacle did was confirm my vote.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

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∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:25 pm
BDKJMU wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:23 pm

Proud Boys have denied being white supremacists, and have themselves rejected white supremacy.
I deny socialism. :nod:
I denounce nose picking

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:54 pm
∞∞∞ wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:25 pm

I deny socialism. :nod:
I denounce nose picking
“Well, I believe in the soul, the c*ck, the p*ssy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by DuckDuckGriz »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:01 pm
DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:54 pm


I denounce nose picking
“Well, I believe in the soul, the c*ck, the p*ssy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
If Trump just started in on Crash Davis or even Kevin Costner quotes, regardless of topic - well sir, white supremacy aside you can swing me right back into the undecided column at least.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by DuckDuckGriz »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 pm
Vidav wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:23 pm


No, we don't ignore them. But I guess I don't see how saying Antifa is an idea (or ideology) is approval.
Failing to denounce them is a cop-out and empowers them which is tacit approval. My guess is that followers of Antifa (or BLM) don't really care for Biden but he is the much lesser of two evils so they're support him. If he calls them out for the violence and looting that happens when their followers are involved they might decide to stay home and he needs their votes. There are similarities with Trump not calling out alt-right groups.
He did quantify protests that were "not peaceful."

In an attempt not to continue reiterating the calling out of an ideological idea (anti-fascism) as an organization, he is undoubtedly ignoring the colloquial use of the term ANTIFA at this point. Soon enough that word will become what Kleenex became to tissues. So he's right, but we all know what that term means to people now.

In other words Biden's not going to be able to use that response when grilled much further. I expect the Trump campaign will keep that pressure on.

A civil war. Hooray!

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by DuckDuckGriz »

BDKJMU wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:02 pm
Ibanez wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:26 pm


It was a Seinfeld reference. But hey, don't let style get in the way of standing your ground and defending your point.
Don't expect everyone to have watched Seinfeld. I've watched like 2-3 episodes.
This actually may be the most offensive post I've read of yours.

:ohno:

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:09 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 pm

Failing to denounce them is a cop-out and empowers them which is tacit approval. My guess is that followers of Antifa (or BLM) don't really care for Biden but he is the much lesser of two evils so they're support him. If he calls them out for the violence and looting that happens when their followers are involved they might decide to stay home and he needs their votes. There are similarities with Trump not calling out alt-right groups.
He did quantify protests that were "not peaceful."

In an attempt not to continue reiterating the calling out of an ideological idea (anti-fascism) as an organization, he is undoubtedly ignoring the colloquial use of the term ANTIFA at this point. Soon enough that word will become what Kleenex became to tissues. So he's right, but we all know what that term means to people now.

In other words Biden's not going to be able to use that response when grilled much further. I expect the Trump campaign will keep that pressure on.

A civil war. Hooray!
I give Biden credit for denouncing looting and violence but I think Antifa is more than an idea and to call it that is a cop-out. It's a movement with a number of supporters who use violence and intimidation. Those supporters need to be specifically denounced.

I don't think ANTIFA really stands for ANTIFAcist, it stands for ANarchists, TItanists & FAcists.

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:09 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:27 pm


Failing to denounce them is a cop-out and empowers them which is tacit approval. My guess is that followers of Antifa (or BLM) don't really care for Biden but he is the much lesser of two evils so they're support him. If he calls them out for the violence and looting that happens when their followers are involved they might decide to stay home and he needs their votes. There are similarities with Trump not calling out alt-right groups.
He did quantify protests that were "not peaceful."

In an attempt not to continue reiterating the calling out of an ideological idea (anti-fascism) as an organization, he is undoubtedly ignoring the colloquial use of the term ANTIFA at this point. Soon enough that word will become what Kleenex became to tissues. So he's right, but we all know what that term means to people now.

In other words Biden's not going to be able to use that response when grilled much further. I expect the Trump campaign will keep that pressure on.

A civil war. Hooray!
Biden will be fine because it really is true that ANTIFA is not a centralized organization and, in any case, if people ask him to tell whoever calls themselves ANTIFA to stop doing bad stuff he'll go ahead and say they should stop doing bad stuff. Trump hesitates. He might do it once he's dragged and pushed and absolutely has to. But he clearly drags his feet on just saying something like "the proud boys should stop doing that stuff."

There is also lots of data suggesting that right wing and/or White Supremacist type stuff is much more of a problem than left wing ANTIFA type stuff is. An example is at https://www.csis.org/analysis/who-are-a ... hey-threat. The "ANTIFA" thing is a classic exaggerated "bogeyman" type of thing. Making it sound like there's this HUGE threat out there from this "ANTIFA" terrorist organization when there isn't.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:28 pm
DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:09 pm

He did quantify protests that were "not peaceful."

In an attempt not to continue reiterating the calling out of an ideological idea (anti-fascism) as an organization, he is undoubtedly ignoring the colloquial use of the term ANTIFA at this point. Soon enough that word will become what Kleenex became to tissues. So he's right, but we all know what that term means to people now.

In other words Biden's not going to be able to use that response when grilled much further. I expect the Trump campaign will keep that pressure on.

A civil war. Hooray!
Biden will be fine because it really is true that ANTIFA is not a centralized organization and, in any case, if people ask him to tell whoever calls themselves ANTIFA to stop doing bad stuff he'll go ahead and say they should stop doing bad stuff. Trump hesitates. He might do it once he's dragged and pushed and absolutely has to. But he clearly drags his feet on just saying something like "the proud boys should stop doing that stuff."

There is also lots of data suggesting that right wing and/or White Supremacist type stuff is much more of a problem than left wing ANTIFA type stuff is. An example is at https://www.csis.org/analysis/who-are-a ... hey-threat. The "ANTIFA" thing is a classic exaggerated "bogeyman" type of thing. Making it sound like there's this HUGE threat out there from this "ANTIFA" terrorist organization when there isn't.
Tell that to Aaron Danielson.

Obfuscating bullsh!t. If you don't think middle class swing voters are turned off by reports of Antifa/BLM "protesters" rioting, looting and marching into residential neighborhoods and chanting that the homes belong to them and the current owners should leave doesn't help Trump then you're naive.

When it comes to extremists, Trump hesitates and avoids, Biden deflects (Antifa is just an idea).

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by AZGrizFan »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:28 pm
DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:09 pm


He did quantify protests that were "not peaceful."

In an attempt not to continue reiterating the calling out of an ideological idea (anti-fascism) as an organization, he is undoubtedly ignoring the colloquial use of the term ANTIFA at this point. Soon enough that word will become what Kleenex became to tissues. So he's right, but we all know what that term means to people now.

In other words Biden's not going to be able to use that response when grilled much further. I expect the Trump campaign will keep that pressure on.

A civil war. Hooray!
Biden will be fine because it really is true that ANTIFA is not a centralized organization and, in any case, if people ask him to tell whoever calls themselves ANTIFA to stop doing bad stuff he'll go ahead and say they should stop doing bad stuff. Trump hesitates. He might do it once he's dragged and pushed and absolutely has to. But he clearly drags his feet on just saying something like "the proud boys should stop doing that stuff."

There is also lots of data suggesting that right wing and/or White Supremacist type stuff is much more of a problem than left wing ANTIFA type stuff is. An example is at https://www.csis.org/analysis/who-are-a ... hey-threat. The "ANTIFA" thing is a classic exaggerated "bogeyman" type of thing. Making it sound like there's this HUGE threat out there from this "ANTIFA" terrorist organization when there isn't.
That “decentralized” idea has caused about a TRILLION dollars in damage in cities across this country in the past six months. So Biden can take that “idea” and kindly shove it up his blind ass.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by AZGrizFan »

DuckDuckGriz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:06 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:01 pm


“Well, I believe in the soul, the c*ck, the p*ssy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
If Trump just started in on Crash Davis or even Kevin Costner quotes, regardless of topic - well sir, white supremacy aside you can swing me right back into the undecided column at least.
Seriously? That only gets you to undecided? :ohno: :ohno: :ohno:
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm
JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:28 pm


Biden will be fine because it really is true that ANTIFA is not a centralized organization and, in any case, if people ask him to tell whoever calls themselves ANTIFA to stop doing bad stuff he'll go ahead and say they should stop doing bad stuff. Trump hesitates. He might do it once he's dragged and pushed and absolutely has to. But he clearly drags his feet on just saying something like "the proud boys should stop doing that stuff."

There is also lots of data suggesting that right wing and/or White Supremacist type stuff is much more of a problem than left wing ANTIFA type stuff is. An example is at https://www.csis.org/analysis/who-are-a ... hey-threat. The "ANTIFA" thing is a classic exaggerated "bogeyman" type of thing. Making it sound like there's this HUGE threat out there from this "ANTIFA" terrorist organization when there isn't.
Tell that to Aaron Danielson.

Obfuscating bullsh!t. If you don't think middle class swing voters are turned off by reports of Antifa/BLM "protesters" rioting, looting and marching into residential neighborhoods and chanting that the homes belong to them and the current owners should leave doesn't help Trump then you're naive.

When it comes to extremists, Trump hesitates and avoids, Biden deflects (Antifa is just an idea).
I think Biden would be in even better position if there were no protests. But not by much. Trump's thing with refusing to unambiguously distance himself from White Nationalists is hurting him a lot more than anything going on with the protests is hurting Biden.

One thing is that it's very important to Democrats to have high Black turnout. Trump doing this crap is really helping them in that regard. Also, yes, helping them with White suburban voters. You can argue about whether it should be the case or not. But being able to tie Trump to White Nationalists helps the Democrats a lot more than anything going on with the BLM protests hurts them. And Trump is doing all he can to help Democrats tie him to White Nationalists.

And BTW, Biden correctly described what "ANTIFA" is. He's got support from the FBI director. See https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 4b65f2362e.
FBI Director Chris Wray told lawmakers Thursday that antifa is an ideology, not an organization
Biden accurately described the situation.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

BTW the guy who shot Danielson claimed it was self defense. At this point we do not know whether that is true or not. So don't come with the "tell that to Aaron Danielson" stuff. The incident will never be adjudicated
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

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For an ideology they sure cause a shitload of damage.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:48 pm
For an ideology they sure cause a shitload of damage.
Most of the damage is being caused independent of ANTIFA. Most of the damage is being caused by run of the mill common criminality whereby people who have no particular ideological motivation are taking advantage of the situation. This thing of making a bogeyman of "ANTIFA" is complete nonsense.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by JohnStOnge »

BTW, what we say on this board doesn't really matter. Trump really hurt himself with his response to the "Proud Boys" thing. And he's not going to get out of it by trying to invoke the "ANTIFA" thing. Let's hope it and other things are enough to get this guy out of office so we can return to being a rational nation.
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by Baldy »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:34 pm
UNI88 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:52 pm


Tell that to Aaron Danielson.

Obfuscating bullsh!t. If you don't think middle class swing voters are turned off by reports of Antifa/BLM "protesters" rioting, looting and marching into residential neighborhoods and chanting that the homes belong to them and the current owners should leave doesn't help Trump then you're naive.

When it comes to extremists, Trump hesitates and avoids, Biden deflects (Antifa is just an idea).
I think Biden would be in even better position if there were no protests. But not by much. Trump's thing with refusing to unambiguously distance himself from White Nationalists is hurting him a lot more than anything going on with the protests is hurting Biden.

One thing is that it's very important to Democrats to have high Black turnout. Trump doing this crap is really helping them in that regard. Also, yes, helping them with White suburban voters. You can argue about whether it should be the case or not. But being able to tie Trump to White Nationalists helps the Democrats a lot more than anything going on with the BLM protests hurts them. And Trump is doing all he can to help Democrats tie him to White Nationalists.

And BTW, Biden correctly described what "ANTIFA" is. He's got support from the FBI director. See https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 4b65f2362e.
FBI Director Chris Wray told lawmakers Thursday that antifa is an ideology, not an organization
Biden accurately described the situation.
You are aware that Christopher Wray is a Trump appointee, correct? I'm old enough to remember all the times that you labeled anyone associated with the Trump administration as a stain, untrustworthy, tainted, etc. What makes this guy believable and respectable all of the sudden? :?

Baldy
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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by Baldy »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:01 pm
AZGrizFan wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:48 pm
For an ideology they sure cause a shitload of damage.
Most of the damage is being caused independent of ANTIFA. Most of the damage is being caused by run of the mill common criminality whereby people who have no particular ideological motivation are taking advantage of the situation. This thing of making a bogeyman of "ANTIFA" is complete nonsense.
'Boogeyman'

Please explain the Atlanta Antifascists, Rose City Antifa, Antifa Seven Hills, Antifa Sacramento, Youth Liberation Front, and all the countless other Antifa Groups.

We'll be waiting. :coffee:

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Re: POTUS Debate #1

Post by SeattleGriz »

Was reading an article on the debate and it caused a bell to go off in my head. Essentially, the author said Trump sidestepped Biden's shot on Trump calling the military losers.

First the Atlantic published a bullshit story with "unnamed sources", then the next day, Biden's team magically has ads running. So Biden was going to stick it to Trump using the dead son hit and Trump simply asked him which son, sidestepped Beau, and started nailing Hunter.

4D chess at its finest.
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