Incoming: Hand-wringing on the 75th Anniversary of the Nuking of Japan

[Ibanez]

I think we're good with Japan. We democratized their culture, gave women the right to vote, and payed reparations to those we rounded up in the states.

If we're going to discuss reparations to blacks, and I think we should, it should probably be best to avoid direct cash payments. Give tax incentives, make it easier for blacks to get a business loan or home loan but sunset the legislation that allows for those things. There's a boatload of generation wealth that whites enjoy and it was done on the backs of slaves, it might not be a bad idea to discuss how best to help that happen.

That said - there are public schools, affirmative action (though this is horribly flawed) and opportunity zones already in effect. But those can and should be improved upon.


Those are just my thoughts. I find this topic interesting and am open to discussion and modifying my ideas.

The wealth created on the backs of slaves in the South was either confiscated by the U.S. Government or destroyed during the war. Perhaps the Yankees who actually conducted the slave trade should pay reparations to blacks and the South. Where do you think the money came from to build all those spectacular mansions in Newport, RI?

That comment just reeks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance. The South wasn't the only region that benefited from slavery. Where do you think a lot of that cotton, indigo, tobacco, rice, etc... was being shipped to? A lot of to the Northern industries which then in turn generated wealth in places like New York or Pennsylvania. By your post, Bank of America, JP Morgan, New York Life, Tiffany and Co. AIG, Brooks Brothers (bad example) are all out of business.

And if you honestly think a single southern wasn't involved in the slave trade, then you're a much bigger idiot than I imagined. Seriously - that's amazing.

[UNI88]

The wealth created on the backs of slaves in the South was either confiscated by the U.S. Government or destroyed during the war. Perhaps the Yankees who actually conducted the slave trade should pay reparations to blacks and the South. Where do you think the money came from to build all those spectacular mansions in Newport, RI?

That comment just reeks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance. The South wasn't the only region that benefited from slavery. Where do you think a lot of that cotton, indigo, tobacco, rice, etc... was being shipped to? A lot of to the Northern industries which then in turn generated wealth in places like New York or Pennsylvania. By your post, Bank of America, JP Morgan, New York Life, Tiffany and Co. AIG, Brooks Brothers (bad example) are all out of business.

And if you honestly think a single southern wasn't involved in the slave trade, then you're a much bigger idiot than I imagined. Seriously - that's amazing.

[CID1990]

The two nukes we dropped on Japan were reparations.


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[dbackjon]

I think we're good with Japan. We democratized their culture, gave women the right to vote, and payed reparations to those we rounded up in the states.

If we're going to discuss reparations to blacks, and I think we should, it should probably be best to avoid direct cash payments. Give tax incentives, make it easier for blacks to get a business loan or home loan but sunset the legislation that allows for those things. There's a boatload of generation wealth that whites enjoy and it was done on the backs of slaves, it might not be a bad idea to discuss how best to help that happen.

That said - there are public schools, affirmative action (though this is horribly flawed) and opportunity zones already in effect. But those can and should be improved upon.


Those are just my thoughts. I find this topic interesting and am open to discussion and modifying my ideas.

The wealth created on the backs of slaves in the South was either confiscated by the U.S. Government or destroyed during the war. Perhaps the Yankees who actually conducted the slave trade should pay reparations to blacks and the South. Where do you think the money came from to build all those spectacular mansions in Newport, RI?

LOL - so wrong there. There is still a ton of southern slave generational wealth. Even if some was confiscated by the North, the former slave owners still controlled everything and were able to rebuild wealth, this time on the backs of sharecroppers and other barely free.

The North was WAAAAAAAAAY too easy on the South.


BTW - when I lived in Nashville, I worked with a lady who's ex husband was a direct descendant of Andrew Jackson. His wealth wasn't destroyed, and his descendant STILL get 6 figure inheritances from the trust he set up with his slave fortune.

[CitadelGrad]

The wealth created on the backs of slaves in the South was either confiscated by the U.S. Government or destroyed during the war. Perhaps the Yankees who actually conducted the slave trade should pay reparations to blacks and the South. Where do you think the money came from to build all those spectacular mansions in Newport, RI?

That comment just reeks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance. The South wasn't the only region that benefited from slavery. Where do you think a lot of that cotton, indigo, tobacco, rice, etc... was being shipped to? A lot of to the Northern industries which then in turn generated wealth in places like New York or Pennsylvania. By your post, Bank of America, JP Morgan, New York Life, Tiffany and Co. AIG, Brooks Brothers (bad example) are all out of business.

And if you honestly think a single southern wasn't involved in the slave trade, then you're a much bigger idiot than I imagined. Seriously - that's amazing.

No shit the North benefited. That was the whole point of my comment about the mansions in Newport. Idiot.

There were plenty of Southerners who were not involved in slavery, particularly those in the Appalachians and the white small farmers who had to compete against the large plantations.

[Ibanez]

That comment just reeks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance. The South wasn't the only region that benefited from slavery. Where do you think a lot of that cotton, indigo, tobacco, rice, etc... was being shipped to? A lot of to the Northern industries which then in turn generated wealth in places like New York or Pennsylvania. By your post, Bank of America, JP Morgan, New York Life, Tiffany and Co. AIG, Brooks Brothers (bad example) are all out of business.

And if you honestly think a single southern wasn't involved in the slave trade, then you're a much bigger idiot than I imagined. Seriously - that's amazing.

No shit the North benefited. That was the whole point of my comment about the mansions in Newport. Idiot.

There were plenty of Southerners who were not involved in slavery, particularly those in the Appalachians and the white small farmers who had to compete against the large plantations.

Idiot - you made a blanket statement that the wealth created by slavery was either confiscated or destroyed. It wasn't. You eluded that Yankees were the only culprits of the slave trade. They weren't. Perhaps you should not speak in hyperbole and stick to the facts. That might be difficult for you but you should give it the college try. I don't know how long you lived in Charleston after your time at The Citadel but there are PLENTY of families there that benefited from their roles in slavery. Ravenel, Middleton, Rutledge, Legare, Pickney, etc...Not all generational wealth was lost. Again - sticks to facts and avoid over generalizations and hyperbole.

And of course there were plenty of Southerners uninvolved. ~ 1% of the entire US population in 1860 owned slaves. Just about every county in Appalachia had slaves, btw. While not to the scale of the grand plantations in Charleston or Atlanta, there were plenty of enslaved people toiling in the fields and shops of the Appalachian Mountains.

[CitadelGrad]

No shit the North benefited. That was the whole point of my comment about the mansions in Newport. Idiot.

There were plenty of Southerners who were not involved in slavery, particularly those in the Appalachians and the white small farmers who had to compete against the large plantations.

Idiot - you made a blanket statement that the wealth created by slavery was either confiscated or destroyed. It wasn't. You eluded that Yankees were the only culprits of the slave trade. They weren't. Perhaps you should not speak in hyperbole and stick to the facts. That might be difficult for you but you should give it the college try. I don't know how long you lived in Charleston after your time at The Citadel but there are PLENTY of families there that benefited from their roles in slavery. Ravenel, Middleton, Rutledge, Legare, Pickney, etc...Not all generational wealth was lost. Again - sticks to facts and avoid over generalizations and hyperbole.

And of course there were plenty of Southerners uninvolved. ~ 1% of the entire US population in 1860 owned slaves. Just about every county in Appalachia had slaves, btw. While not to the scale of the grand plantations in Charleston or Atlanta, there were plenty of enslaved people toiling in the fields and shops of the Appalachian Mountains.

Most of the wealth of the South was destroyed or confiscated during the war. Some may have converted their cash to gold and shipped it offshore, but the South was devastated. Starvation was not uncommon.

As for the slave trade, the importation of slaves was almost exclusively conducted by the North. The large shipping companies were in the North. Slaves didn't arrive on Pan Am.

[CID1990]

The two nukes we dropped on Japan were reparations.


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No love for this?

WTF?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ nevermind we’re litigating slavery again

[Winterborn]

The two nukes we dropped on Japan were reparations.


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No love for this?

WTF?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ nevermind we’re litigating slavery again

I chuckled but it wasn't quite worth an emoticon.

[Ibanez]

Idiot - you made a blanket statement that the wealth created by slavery was either confiscated or destroyed. It wasn't. You eluded that Yankees were the only culprits of the slave trade. They weren't. Perhaps you should not speak in hyperbole and stick to the facts. That might be difficult for you but you should give it the college try. I don't know how long you lived in Charleston after your time at The Citadel but there are PLENTY of families there that benefited from their roles in slavery. Ravenel, Middleton, Rutledge, Legare, Pickney, etc...Not all generational wealth was lost. Again - sticks to facts and avoid over generalizations and hyperbole.

And of course there were plenty of Southerners uninvolved. ~ 1% of the entire US population in 1860 owned slaves. Just about every county in Appalachia had slaves, btw. While not to the scale of the grand plantations in Charleston or Atlanta, there were plenty of enslaved people toiling in the fields and shops of the Appalachian Mountains.

Most of the wealth of the South was destroyed or confiscated during the war. Some may have converted their cash to gold and shipped it offshore, but the South was devastated. Starvation was not uncommon.

As for the slave trade, the importation of slaves was almost exclusively conducted by the North. The large shipping companies were in the North. Slaves didn't arrive on Pan Am.

No shit. That was my point about your blanket statement, over generalization, broad strokes assessment. Nice to see you modifying your statement to be in step with facts and reality. Those facts can be frustrating things.

I'd like to see evidence that "the importation of slaves was almost exclusively conducted by the North." Regardless of WHERE the companies that conducted the slave trade were located, the more important measure is where did they go - and that is 100%, without a doubt the south. And more times than not, Charleston, South Carolina. Sadly, since it's founding in 1670, Charleston introduced slavery at a breakneck pace and was one of the busiest ports, especially in the 18th century. But to your point, it matters not where the companies were located. What matters is what they were doing.

And i'm not sure what you're trying to stay with your Pan Am comment. You mean to say air travel wasn't available in 1800?!??!?!?!

[Ibanez]

The two nukes we dropped on Japan were reparations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No love for this?

WTF?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ nevermind we’re litigating slavery again

I wouldn't have to set your fellow alum straight if he had learned a thing or 2 from his time in Charleston.

[dbackjon]

No love for this?

WTF?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ nevermind we’re litigating slavery again

I chuckled but it wasn't quite worth an emoticon.

Same

[AZGrizFan]

No shit the North benefited. That was the whole point of my comment about the mansions in Newport. Idiot.

There were plenty of Southerners who were not involved in slavery, particularly those in the Appalachians and the white small farmers who had to compete against the large plantations.

Idiot - you made a blanket statement that the wealth created by slavery was either confiscated or destroyed. It wasn't. You eluded that Yankees were the only culprits of the slave trade. They weren't. Perhaps you should not speak in hyperbole and stick to the facts. That might be difficult for you but you should give it the college try. I don't know how long you lived in Charleston after your time at The Citadel but there are PLENTY of families there that benefited from their roles in slavery. Ravenel, Middleton, Rutledge, Legare, Pickney, etc...Not all generational wealth was lost. Again - sticks to facts and avoid over generalizations and hyperbole.

And of course there were plenty of Southerners uninvolved. ~ 1% of the entire US population in 1860 owned slaves. Just about every county in Appalachia had slaves, btw. While not to the scale of the grand plantations in Charleston or Atlanta, there were plenty of enslaved people toiling in the fields and shops of the Appalachian Mountains.

*alluded

[Pwns]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... -bomb.html

Slate article that discusses the possibility of giving a nuclear "warning shot" to the Japs to prove we have the warheads.

I honestly didn't realize guys like Oppenheimer and Enrico Fermi and Richard Feynman were against that. I kinda assumed most of those high-profile Manhatten Project guys except John VonNeumann were dovish.

[Ivytalk]

75 years ago today.

Good History Channel documentary today. Grim stuff.

[CID1990]

I will never be swayed from my fervent belief that dropping those bombs on Japan were the right course of action.

I haven’t been on Facebook today because I know what’s waiting there

So I’m gonna go out on the porch and light me up an evening cigar and have a wee dram and then I’M LOGGIN ON BITCHES

Come at me with your revisionist BS about Japan, Bro


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[Ibanez]

I will never be swayed from my fervent belief that dropping those bombs on Japan were the right course of action.

I haven’t been on Facebook today because I know what’s waiting there

So I’m gonna go out on the porch and light me up an evening cigar and have a wee dram and then I’M LOGGIN ON BITCHES

Come at me with your revisionist BS about Japan, Bro


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What cigar was it? I fired up an Oliva Serie G.

[Ivytalk]

I will never be swayed from my fervent belief that dropping those bombs on Japan were the right course of action.

I haven’t been on Facebook today because I know what’s waiting there

So I’m gonna go out on the porch and light me up an evening cigar and have a wee dram and then I’M LOGGIN ON BITCHES

Come at me with your revisionist BS about Japan, Bro


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with this: dropping the bombs shortened the war and resulted in a net saving of hundreds of thousands of lives. Still, the History Channel documentary was powerful. It treated the Manhattan Project and the U.S. military fairly. One of the best I’ve seen.

[Ibanez]

I will never be swayed from my fervent belief that dropping those bombs on Japan were the right course of action.

I haven’t been on Facebook today because I know what’s waiting there

So I’m gonna go out on the porch and light me up an evening cigar and have a wee dram and then I’M LOGGIN ON BITCHES

Come at me with your revisionist BS about Japan, Bro


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with this: dropping the bombs shortened the war and resulted in a net saving of hundreds of thousands of lives. Still, the History Channel documentary was powerful. It treated the Manhattan Project and the U.S. military fairly. One of the best I’ve seen.

Agreed. It was nasty business but it was necessary. I heard recently that the Japanese gov't didn't learn about Hiroshima until the next day. If we look back at the whole sequence of events: Japanese civilians committing suicide, blowing themselves up, blowing up their kids, guerrilla warfare and then look at the fact that on August 7 we decimated a city with one bomb AND THEY STILL DIDN'T CAPITULATE...the second bomb was even more necessary. Not to mention that we had been bombing Tokyo and other major Japanese cities.

We had control of their skies and the seas. They knew the land was next. These people that thought the American soldier was weak, must've been confounded as to how they lost the war.


Ivy - i'll have to check out this documentary. Actually - I have a great book you should read. I'd be happy to mail it you.

[CID1990]

I agree with this: dropping the bombs shortened the war and resulted in a net saving of hundreds of thousands of lives. Still, the History Channel documentary was powerful. It treated the Manhattan Project and the U.S. military fairly. One of the best I’ve seen.

Agreed. It was nasty business but it was necessary. I heard recently that the Japanese gov't didn't learn about Hiroshima until the next day. If we look back at the whole sequence of events: Japanese civilians committing suicide, blowing themselves up, blowing up their kids, guerrilla warfare and then look at the fact that on August 7 we decimated a city with one bomb AND THEY STILL DIDN'T CAPITULATE...the second bomb was even more necessary. Not to mention that we had been bombing Tokyo and other major Japanese cities.

We had control of their skies and the seas. They knew the land was next. These people that thought the American soldier was weak, must've been confounded as to how they lost the war.


Ivy - i'll have to check out this documentary. Actually - I have a great book you should read. I'd be happy to mail it you.

Here’s another thing most people don’t consider -

Island hopping across the Pacific and the remote island battles it produced resulted in absolutely the most brutal, inhuman warfare in human history - even up to today. We had to literally root the Japanese out of every rathole with flamethrowers. The human cost on both sides was appalling - and not just in terms of the physical casualties but also on the psyche of the soldiers on both sides. Those islands like Pelelieu, Saipan, Iwo Jima, Betio, and Guadalcanal were literally hell on earth.

But the public on the Allied side were largely insulated from all that. It wasn’t until Okinawa when Americans began to get a taste of what the Pacific War was really like because it was shortly before then that newsreel censorship was lifted and people got a glimpse of the sheer brutality. And Okinawa was just a taste of what would happen in Japan- use of civilian shields, mass suicides, total war.

Now imagine the toll of an invasion of Japan and what that would have entailed - newsreels of dead children, women, burned bodies as we fought for every square meter of land over what would surely have been months or even more than a year. Our stomach for that would have waned and we would have seen serious political consequences at home. Not to mention the fallout when it was learned that we had the bombs and didn’t use them- millions of dead Americans and Japanese on the hands of our government that could have been prevented.

Whatever the criticisms of our use of the bomb, perceptions of us today would be much more dismal had we chosen to invade Japan. So I’ll defend our use of the nukes from any angle.


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[houndawg]

That comment just reeks of intellectual dishonesty and ignorance. The South wasn't the only region that benefited from slavery. Where do you think a lot of that cotton, indigo, tobacco, rice, etc... was being shipped to? A lot of to the Northern industries which then in turn generated wealth in places like New York or Pennsylvania. By your post, Bank of America, JP Morgan, New York Life, Tiffany and Co. AIG, Brooks Brothers (bad example) are all out of business.

And if you honestly think a single southern wasn't involved in the slave trade, then you're a much bigger idiot than I imagined. Seriously - that's amazing.

No shit the North benefited. That was the whole point of my comment about the mansions in Newport. Idiot.

There were plenty of Southerners who were not involved in slavery, particularly those in the Appalachians and the white small farmers who had to compete against the large plantations.

Whole different breed of southerner - the Appalachians were settled from the North down.

[dbackjon]

I will never be swayed from my fervent belief that dropping those bombs on Japan were the right course of action.

I haven’t been on Facebook today because I know what’s waiting there

So I’m gonna go out on the porch and light me up an evening cigar and have a wee dram and then I’M LOGGIN ON BITCHES

Come at me with your revisionist BS about Japan, Bro


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have been slapping the revisionists left and right. "Japan was about to surrender" "Japanese civilians - why did the US target Japanese civilians instead of just military targets". Oh those poor Japanese.

[houndawg]

Agreed. It was nasty business but it was necessary. I heard recently that the Japanese gov't didn't learn about Hiroshima until the next day. If we look back at the whole sequence of events: Japanese civilians committing suicide, blowing themselves up, blowing up their kids, guerrilla warfare and then look at the fact that on August 7 we decimated a city with one bomb AND THEY STILL DIDN'T CAPITULATE...the second bomb was even more necessary. Not to mention that we had been bombing Tokyo and other major Japanese cities.

We had control of their skies and the seas. They knew the land was next. These people that thought the American soldier was weak, must've been confounded as to how they lost the war.


Ivy - i'll have to check out this documentary. Actually - I have a great book you should read. I'd be happy to mail it you.

Here’s another thing most people don’t consider -

Island hopping across the Pacific and the remote island battles it produced resulted in absolutely the most brutal, inhuman warfare in human history - even up to today. We had to literally root the Japanese out of every rathole with flamethrowers. The human cost on both sides was appalling - and not just in terms of the physical casualties but also on the psyche of the soldiers on both sides. Those islands like Pelelieu, Saipan, Iwo Jima, Betio, and Guadalcanal were literally hell on earth.

But the public on the Allied side were largely insulated from all that. It wasn’t until Okinawa when Americans began to get a taste of what the Pacific War was really like because it was shortly before then that newsreel censorship was lifted and people got a glimpse of the sheer brutality. And Okinawa was just a taste of what would happen in Japan- use of civilian shields, mass suicides, total war.

Now imagine the toll of an invasion of Japan and what that would have entailed - newsreels of dead children, women, burned bodies as we fought for every square meter of land over what would surely have been months or even more than a year. Our stomach for that would have waned and we would have seen serious political consequences at home. Not to mention the fallout when it was learned that we had the bombs and didn’t use them- millions of dead Americans and Japanese on the hands of our government that could have been prevented.

Whatever the criticisms of our use of the bomb, perceptions of us today would be much more dismal had we chosen to invade Japan. So I’ll defend our use of the nukes from any angle.


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My father-in-law was there when he was 19, landed at Yona Baru with an ACORN unit. Only heard him talk about it twice - he said that clearing the caves was the worst except for the mothers throwng children off of the seacliffs and jumping after them. He rode out the typhoon in a meat locker and when he stepped out afterward was detailed with building the Officer's Club. He cut a deal with some Australians to trade two Navy blankets per bottle of Australian whisky. When the plane flew in it made a wobbly landing and nearly nosed over - both pilots were passed out and the crew chief flew in, took care of business and flew out.

[dbackjon]

The other item that would have likely changed had the US not dropped the bomb on Japan was the Soviet entrance into the war. The USSR didn't declare war on Japan until AFTER Hiroshima. Had the conflict dragged on, and USSR entered a conventional war, they would have demanded more territory than what they got. It would stand to reason that Japan would have become a divided country, with part under Soviet control had Japan not surrendered before the Soviets got fully engaged.

[CitadelGrad]

No shit the North benefited. That was the whole point of my comment about the mansions in Newport. Idiot.

There were plenty of Southerners who were not involved in slavery, particularly those in the Appalachians and the white small farmers who had to compete against the large plantations.

Whole different breed of southerner - the Appalachians were settled from the North down.

Wow, so you are an expert in early Appalachian demographics.

Is there anything you don't know, 6.93?