Cancel Culture thread

Political discussions
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by SDHornet »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:29 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:10 pm

But according to you, drunk driving is okay, sex with minors is cool, and private businesses deciding not to serve people based on their race is fine. But you draw the line at people who support Trump. I'm not sure you're the poster child for the SJW crowd. :coffee:
The phenomenon by which people support Trump is the same as that which led to Hitler and Mussolini gaining power during the 20th Century. It's very bad. We just had a guy try to subvert our system of representative government. And it's been obvious for years now that he is the type that would do something like that.

People who support Trump are way more dangerous to you and me than people who drive with a 0.08 BAC are. They are way more dangerous than a 21 year old guy who has sex with a 16 year old girl. They are way more dangerous than someone who refuses to associate with someone else based on race but otherwise minds their own business.
You shilled for a group that was founded by a dude that groomed young boys. But sure, try and spin it as a 21 yo banging a 16 yo.
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:01 pm Wow I didn't even know exactly what "cancel culture" is until I looked up the definition yesterday and got this:
Cancel culture (or call-out culture) is a modern form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles - either online on social media, in the real world, or both. Those who are subject to this ostracism are said to be "canceled."
I like it. That's what I've been saying needs to be done to anyone found to be a Trump supporter. They need to be ostracized. Social outcasts. Lose their jobs and professions. That sort of thing.
How “libertarian” of you. You’ve gone full retard, FFS.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:29 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:10 pm But according to you, drunk driving is okay, sex with minors is cool, and private businesses deciding not to serve people based on their race is fine. But you draw the line at people who support Trump. I'm not sure you're the poster child for the SJW crowd. :coffee:
The phenomenon by which people support Trump is the same as that which led to Hitler and Mussolini gaining power during the 20th Century. It's very bad. We just had a guy try to subvert our system of representative government. And it's been obvious for years now that he is the type that would do something like that.

People who support Trump are way more dangerous to you and me than people who drive with a 0.08 BAC are. They are way more dangerous than a 21 year old guy who has sex with a 16 year old girl. They are way more dangerous than someone who refuses to associate with someone else based on race but otherwise minds their own business.
"You are a CS.com treasure" JSO!
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
User avatar
JohnStOnge
Egalitarian
Egalitarian
Posts: 20313
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:47 pm
I am a fan of: McNeese State
A.K.A.: JohnStOnge

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by JohnStOnge »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:39 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:01 pm Wow I didn't even know exactly what "cancel culture" is until I looked up the definition yesterday and got this:



I like it. That's what I've been saying needs to be done to anyone found to be a Trump supporter. They need to be ostracized. Social outcasts. Lose their jobs and professions. That sort of thing.
How “libertarian” of you. You’ve gone full retard, FFS.
This is not inconsistent with Libertarianism. This is not government taking action against people for being Trump supporters. It is about that majority of the society that sees Trump support as unacceptable choosing to ostracize Trump supporters. If an employer finds out someone is a Trump supporter, they are free to fire them. Completely libertarian. If someone having a party (after COVID) finds out someone is a Trump supporter, they are free not to invite them. Completely libertarian. If someone finds out that a business owner is a Trump supporter, they are free not to do business with them. Completely libertarian.

And that's what should happen. Trump support should be viewed in the same way as belonging to the Ku Klux Klan is. That person is a pariah socially. Nothing contrary to being a Libertarian about that.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?

Deep Purple: No One Came
Image
User avatar
SDHornet
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19443
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:50 pm
I am a fan of: Sacramento State Hornets

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by SDHornet »

Ostracize 75M people. What could go wrong? :lol:

Full retard indeed. :dunce:
HI54UNI
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 12387
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:39 pm
I am a fan of: Firing Mark Farley
A.K.A.: Bikinis for JSO
Location: The Panther State

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by HI54UNI »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:29 pm
GannonFan wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:10 pm

But according to you, drunk driving is okay, sex with minors is cool, and private businesses deciding not to serve people based on their race is fine. But you draw the line at people who support Trump. I'm not sure you're the poster child for the SJW crowd. :coffee:
The phenomenon by which people support Trump is the same as that which led to Hitler and Mussolini gaining power during the 20th Century. It's very bad. We just had a guy try to subvert our system of representative government. And it's been obvious for years now that he is the type that would do something like that.

People who support Trump are way more dangerous to you and me than people who drive with a 0.08 BAC are. They are way more dangerous than a 21 year old guy who has sex with a 16 year old girl. They are way more dangerous than someone who refuses to associate with someone else based on race but otherwise minds their own business.


Image
If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Ronald Reagan, 1975.

Progressivism is cancer

All my posts are satire
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:05 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:29 pm

The phenomenon by which people support Trump is the same as that which led to Hitler and Mussolini gaining power during the 20th Century. It's very bad. We just had a guy try to subvert our system of representative government. And it's been obvious for years now that he is the type that would do something like that.

People who support Trump are way more dangerous to you and me than people who drive with a 0.08 BAC are. They are way more dangerous than a 21 year old guy who has sex with a 16 year old girl. They are way more dangerous than someone who refuses to associate with someone else based on race but otherwise minds their own business.
"You are a CS.com treasure" JSO!
Ha! That he is! :lol:
Image
Image
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by kalm »

HI54UNI wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:26 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:29 pm

The phenomenon by which people support Trump is the same as that which led to Hitler and Mussolini gaining power during the 20th Century. It's very bad. We just had a guy try to subvert our system of representative government. And it's been obvious for years now that he is the type that would do something like that.

People who support Trump are way more dangerous to you and me than people who drive with a 0.08 BAC are. They are way more dangerous than a 21 year old guy who has sex with a 16 year old girl. They are way more dangerous than someone who refuses to associate with someone else based on race but otherwise minds their own business.


Image
COD approves! :nod:
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 27897
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:32 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:07 pm
If 47% of the electorate were fired from their jobs, the country would collapse. Any more brilliant ideas? :dunce:
47% won’t be fired but ostracism is already occurring from families, friends, business relationships, jobs...It will take years to unravel.

Along with the ensuing restored faith in institutions and government, it’s a hallmark of crisis periods.
And a lot of the 47% are sticking together ostracizing the 53%. The ostracism goes both ways.
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:08 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:39 pm

How “libertarian” of you. You’ve gone full retard, FFS.
This is not inconsistent with Libertarianism. This is not government taking action against people for being Trump supporters. It is about that majority of the society that sees Trump support as unacceptable choosing to ostracize Trump supporters. If an employer finds out someone is a Trump supporter, they are free to fire them. Completely libertarian. If someone having a party (after COVID) finds out someone is a Trump supporter, they are free not to invite them. Completely libertarian. If someone finds out that a business owner is a Trump supporter, they are free not to do business with them. Completely libertarian.

And that's what should happen. Trump support should be viewed in the same way as belonging to the Ku Klux Klan is. That person is a pariah socially. Nothing contrary to being a Libertarian about that.
It is ENTIRELY against libertarianism and watching your mental gymnastics to try and justify such a dystopian solution to a group that thinks differently than you would be comical if it wasn’t so fucking frightening.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
Ibanez
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 60482
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
I am a fan of: Coastal Carolina

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by Ibanez »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:01 pm Wow I didn't even know exactly what "cancel culture" is until I looked up the definition yesterday and got this:
Cancel culture (or call-out culture) is a modern form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles - either online on social media, in the real world, or both. Those who are subject to this ostracism are said to be "canceled."
I like it. That's what I've been saying needs to be done to anyone found to be a Trump supporter. They need to be ostracized. Social outcasts. Lose their jobs and professions. That sort of thing.
JFC. You are so on the wrong side of history. I won't pile on b/c BDK, SD, AZ and Gannon have already said it perfectly.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:23 pm
kalm wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:32 pm

47% won’t be fired but ostracism is already occurring from families, friends, business relationships, jobs...It will take years to unravel.

Along with the ensuing restored faith in institutions and government, it’s a hallmark of crisis periods.
And a lot of the 47% are sticking together ostracizing the 53%. The ostracism goes both ways.
Maybe 20% are true MAGA’s. Probably around the same number will at some point magically and/or completely disassociate from Trump. The rest are low information voters who don’t really care that much or just root for Team R. Think of them as casual fans at best or tag-alongs who don’t like politics or talking about it.

These numbers are just my estimates and will change over time depending on future activity...but the amount of people losing relationships because they openly hate Trump will be much smaller than those who openly supported Trump.

“He’s an asshole for not supporting Nixon”...said very few ever. Trump will be viewed as worse than Nixon. :nod:
Image
Image
Image
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:48 am
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:01 pm Wow I didn't even know exactly what "cancel culture" is until I looked up the definition yesterday and got this:



I like it. That's what I've been saying needs to be done to anyone found to be a Trump supporter. They need to be ostracized. Social outcasts. Lose their jobs and professions. That sort of thing.
JFC. You are so on the wrong side of history. I won't pile on b/c BDK, SD, AZ and Gannon have already said it perfectly.
How is he on the wrong side of history?
Image
Image
Image
∞∞∞
Level5
Level5
Posts: 12297
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:30 am

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by ∞∞∞ »

"Cancel culture" has been around since the dawn of man; I don't know why anyone thinks America is an exception to the rule. Every society in the history of forever shuns things it finds a threat to its principles (usually through social, economic, legal, or extrajudicial means).

The only major progress our Constitution made was enshrining freedom of speech as a right.

But we've been "cancelling" stuff since day one (minority groups will tell ya). What cancels gets changed with time, it differs with geography, cultures, governments, economic systems...but it's a fundamental survival instinct for a social species like ours.
User avatar
89Hen
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 39223
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:13 pm
I am a fan of: High Horses
A.K.A.: The Almighty Arbiter

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by 89Hen »

∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:43 am Every society in the history of forever shuns things it finds a threat to its principles
Like people that hate the Constitution.
Image
User avatar
UNI88
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 19955
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 am
I am a fan of: UNI
Location: the foggy, woggy banks Of the Limpopo River

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by UNI88 »

∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:43 am "Cancel culture" has been around since the dawn of man; I don't know why anyone thinks America is an exception to the rule. Every society in the history of forever shuns things it finds a threat to its principles (usually through social, economic, legal, or extrajudicial means).

The only major progress our Constitution made was enshrining freedom of speech as a right.

But we've been "cancelling" stuff since day one (minority groups will tell ya). What cancels gets changed with time, it differs with geography, cultures, governments, economic systems...but it's a fundamental survival instinct for a social species like ours.
I agree with your post except for the bolded. That is absolute baloney and you should be shunned for typing it. :D
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
Ibanez
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 60482
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
I am a fan of: Coastal Carolina

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:25 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:48 am JFC. You are so on the wrong side of history. I won't pile on b/c BDK, SD, AZ and Gannon have already said it perfectly.
How is he on the wrong side of history?
This goes beyond ignoring or excluding someone due to behavior or association. The Cancel Culture is meant to ostracize and punish anyone that doesn't live up to the Woke liberal agenda (that's my opinion). It's a purity movement.

You don't agree with my POV on gender then you're a bigot and i'm gonna dox you, threaten you and make you lose your job.


I don't associate with a sibling but i'm not going to say he should lose his job and suffer just because we disagree on things.
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
Ibanez
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 60482
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
I am a fan of: Coastal Carolina

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:43 am "Cancel culture" has been around since the dawn of man; I don't know why anyone thinks America is an exception to the rule. Every society in the history of forever shuns things it finds a threat to its principles (usually through social, economic, legal, or extrajudicial means).

The only major progress our Constitution made was enshrining freedom of speech as a right.

But we've been "cancelling" stuff since day one (minority groups will tell ya). What cancels gets changed with time, it differs with geography, cultures, governments, economic systems...but it's a fundamental survival instinct for a social species like ours.
This goes beyond shunning the village pervert. This is threatening, trying to get you fired and make sure you can't survive b/c you like guns and I don't (or you believe in 2 genders and I don't). I think it goes beyond just avoiding people in society. :twocents:
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
kalm
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59305
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm
I am a fan of: Eastern
A.K.A.: Humus The Proud
Location: Northern Palouse

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:05 am
kalm wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:25 am

How is he on the wrong side of history?
This goes beyond ignoring or excluding someone due to behavior or association. The Cancel Culture is meant to ostracize and punish anyone that doesn't live up to the Woke liberal agenda (that's my opinion). It's a purity movement.

You don't agree with my POV on gender then you're a bigot and i'm gonna dox you, threaten you and make you lose your job.


I don't associate with a sibling but i'm not going to say he should lose his job and suffer just because we disagree on things.
Gotcha. :thumb:

Cancel culture isn’t a movement. It’s a reaction to societal changes.

Not sure that makes JSO on the wrong side of history though.
Image
Image
Image
Ibanez
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 60482
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
I am a fan of: Coastal Carolina

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:08 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:05 am

This goes beyond ignoring or excluding someone due to behavior or association. The Cancel Culture is meant to ostracize and punish anyone that doesn't live up to the Woke liberal agenda (that's my opinion). It's a purity movement.

You don't agree with my POV on gender then you're a bigot and i'm gonna dox you, threaten you and make you lose your job.


I don't associate with a sibling but i'm not going to say he should lose his job and suffer just because we disagree on things.
Gotcha. :thumb:

Cancel culture isn’t a movement. It’s a reaction to societal changes.

Not sure that makes JSO on the wrong side of history though.
Going after someone and their livelihood because they are Republican (or Democrat) isn't going to end well.

Again, this isn't about shunning someone like Charles Manson or some crazy cult leader who is a danger to others. Today's cancel culture is about shunning BDK on the fact that he voted for Trump. We shouldn't be shunning people b/c they make bad decisions. :kisswink:

:twocents: :coffee:
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 27897
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:24 am
BDKJMU wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:23 pm
And a lot of the 47% are sticking together ostracizing the 53%. The ostracism goes both ways.
Maybe 20% are true MAGA’s. Probably around the same number will at some point magically and/or completely disassociate from Trump. The rest are low information voters who don’t really care that much or just root for Team R. Think of them as casual fans at best or tag-alongs who don’t like politics or talking about it.

These numbers are just my estimates and will change over time depending on future activity...but the amount of people losing relationships because they openly hate Trump will be much smaller than those who openly supported Trump.

“He’s an asshole for not supporting Nixon”...said very few ever. Trump will be viewed as worse than Nixon. :nod:
#1. 20% of the electorate? I would agree.
# 2. 20% of the 47% (<10%)? I think its more like #1.

The people losing relationships goes both ways. One person doesn't lose a relationship. If you have 1 MAGA and 9 TDSers, or 9 MAGAs, and 1 TDSer, and they no longer associate with each other, that's 10 people losing a relationship.

And I think there's just as many overwhelmingly MAGA groups, as there are overwhelmingly TDS groups..
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
User avatar
BDKJMU
Level5
Level5
Posts: 27897
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:59 am
I am a fan of: JMU
A.K.A.: BDKJMU
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by BDKJMU »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:15 am
kalm wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:08 am

Gotcha. :thumb:

Cancel culture isn’t a movement. It’s a reaction to societal changes.

Not sure that makes JSO on the wrong side of history though.
Going after someone and their livelihood because they are Republican (or Democrat) isn't going to end well.

Again, this isn't about shunning someone like Charles Manson or some crazy cult leader who is a danger to others. Today's cancel culture is about shunning BDK on the fact that he voted for Trump. We shouldn't be shunning people b/c they make bad decisions. :kisswink:

:twocents: :coffee:
Well thanks...
And :tothehand:
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
JMU Football: 2022 & 2023 Sun Belt East Champions.
Ibanez
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 60482
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:16 pm
I am a fan of: Coastal Carolina

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by Ibanez »

BDKJMU wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 am
Ibanez wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:15 am Going after someone and their livelihood because they are Republican (or Democrat) isn't going to end well.

Again, this isn't about shunning someone like Charles Manson or some crazy cult leader who is a danger to others. Today's cancel culture is about shunning BDK on the fact that he voted for Trump. We shouldn't be shunning people b/c they make bad decisions. :kisswink:

:twocents: :coffee:
Well thanks...
And :tothehand:
:kisswink: You're welcome, big guy. :lol:
Turns out I might be a little gay. 89Hen 11/7/17
User avatar
AZGrizFan
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 59959
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm
I am a fan of: Sexual Chocolate
Location: Just to the right of center

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by AZGrizFan »

here's the beauty of it. In my family (10 siblings) there are six conservatives, three TDS'ers and 1 agnostic. Dad and mom are conservative. 23 nieces and nephews, most of whom (with three-five marginal exceptions) are huge TDS'ers/socialists.

If I never speak to the three TDS'ers again, I'm fine with that. If I don't have a relationship with my nieces and nephews, I'm fine with that. I've been called every name you can imagine by them in the past four years...

Turns out, you CAN pick your family....they've chosen to block me, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12
Image
User avatar
Pwns
Level4
Level4
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm
I am a fan of: Georgia Friggin' Southern
A.K.A.: FCS_pwns_FBS (AGS)

Re: Cancel Culture thread

Post by Pwns »

Every grown person I know who grew up in a real large family (granted not all that many) has 1 or 2 siblings they're real close to and 1 or 2 they have little contact with with the rest being in the middle. It's not that hard for me (not someone from a big family) to fathom, honestly.
Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
Post Reply