Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by BDKJMU »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:44 am
kalm wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:53 pm

1). If decisions not to investigate or prosecute were made under Trump is one reason it matters.

2). Cy Vance has recently admitted there was significant evidence of a crime but he was asked to stand down by the DOJ and ran out of time.

It will likely be months before we get the full scoop on this and there’s likely more to the story than just what crime has he even committed?
Why should it be months before we get the full scoop? There's an indictment and now the full arraignment, so whatever they're charging him with we should know now, in full, what the charges are. I get it that they're going after the $150,000 payment, and how it was recorded. But for it to be a felony it has to be tied to another crime - campaign finance violation for instance. Or blocking information from the public (not sure that's actually a criminal statute but if it is then it's easy to reference it). Why does the indictment not just come out and say that? You have to admit, it's weird that there's 30 some charges for the same payment (which I get, if it had to be recorded in many different areas it's a potential crime every time it got recorded), but it's always been clear that this has been the weakest of all cases against Trump. Not really referencing the extra crime that makes this a felony versus a misdemeanor is an odd thing.
Has to be another NY state crime. And the statute of limitations has already run out on any misdemeanor..
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by BDKJMU »

Winterborn wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:05 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:44 am

Why should it be months before we get the full scoop? There's an indictment and now the full arraignment, so whatever they're charging him with we should know now, in full, what the charges are. I get it that they're going after the $150,000 payment, and how it was recorded. But for it to be a felony it has to be tied to another crime - campaign finance violation for instance. Or blocking information from the public (not sure that's actually a criminal statute but if it is then it's easy to reference it). Why does the indictment not just come out and say that? You have to admit, it's weird that there's 30 some charges for the same payment (which I get, if it had to be recorded in many different areas it's a potential crime every time it got recorded), but it's always been clear that this has been the weakest of all cases against Trump. Not really referencing the extra crime that makes this a felony versus a misdemeanor is an odd thing.
I believe it is because the felony would be federal (campaign finance violation) and the FEC already has said it isn't a violation (and reiterated that this past week) along with the DOJ. The FEC also has a lower burden of proof (due top it operating civilly not criminally) and if it couldn't find wrong doing under those standards, then Bragg (having to meet a higher standard) is going to find it tough to do.

I am going to quote the article I referenced above:
In the first place, prosecutors are generally not allowed to withhold charges in an arraignment. An arraignment is supposed to formally satisfy the constitutional requirement that defendants get fully apprised of the charges against them. It’s not unusual to add counts to indictments after arraignments as investigations proceed, but it’s unheard-of to predicate misdemeanors into felonies on the basis of covering up another felony without naming the felony on which the other felony charges are predicated. We do not allow prosecutors to use secret charges in American courtrooms, or at least we didn’t until now. That defect is front and center in Bragg’s presentation in court even before a judge tackles jurisdiction

...

But what if the predicate felony isn’t a federal campaign-finance violation? Bragg hinted at the presser after the arraignment that the underlying felony was a state crime, even though his statement of facts attached to the indictment hinted at a federal campaign-finance violation. Another theory floating since the arraignment is that Bragg will charge Trump with conducting a fraud on voters in New York County through paying off Stormy Daniels (and presumably Karen McDougal) to keep them from talking about his extramarital affairs. That theory has any number of problems, starting the John Edwards precedent in which it became impossible to prove that Edwards paid off Rielle Hunter to protect the campaign, as opposed to just keeping the tryst from his terminally-ill wife. Trainor doesn’t cite US v Edwards, but points out that the FEC had the same impossible burden of proof in the Trump-Cohen case:
Winterborn beat me to it. The other crime can’t be just federal.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by BDKJMU »

GannonFan wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:49 am
UNI88 wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:23 am

:nod:

I read an article a couple of days ago about Bragg withholding the details as a strategic move and it left me scratching my head because that isn't how our legal system works. The prosecution has to provide the defense with it's evidence and list of witnesses so the defense can review it and interview them and prepare their defense. If the prosecution surprises the defense then the defense gets time to review the new information. I'm not an attorney and my knowledge could be flawed but I don't think it's that far off.
Well, since legal things take forever to move through the system, it may very well likely be that he'll have more information come December when they next meet on this case. He just needs to give them everything prior to trying the case, which could be a long time from now.
The judge should recuse himself due to conflict of interest.
-The judges daughter worked for the Harris campaign and indirectly for the Biden-Harris campaign
-The judge donated to the Biden campaign.
In other words the judge is overseeing a case against the chief political rival that his daughter worked for and he donated to.

Also the judge didn’t set the trial date this summer. He didn’t set it this fall. He set it 9 months from now in Jan 2024 (would tum into at least Feb) literally at the height of the primary when the campaign will be decided.

The whole thing reeks of bananna republic politics..
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by kalm »

BDKJMU wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:01 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:49 am

Well, since legal things take forever to move through the system, it may very well likely be that he'll have more information come December when they next meet on this case. He just needs to give them everything prior to trying the case, which could be a long time from now.
The judge should recuse himself due to conflict of interest.
-The judges daughter worked for the Harris campaign and indirectly for the Biden-Harris campaign
-The judge donated to the Biden campaign.
In other words the judge is overseeing a case against the chief political rival that his daughter worked for and he donated to.

Also the judge didn’t set the trial date this summer. He didn’t set it this fall. He set it 9 months from now in Jan 2024 (would tum into at least Feb) literally at the height of the primary when the campaign will be decided.

The whole thing reeks of bananna republic politics..
So similar to the Clarence Thomas thing?
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by houndawg »

Ivytalk wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:26 am
93henfan wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:56 am My favorite was at the recent SOTU where he called California a stanktuary.
That will end up on Urban Dictionary! No gaffe there!

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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by houndawg »

BDKJMU wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:01 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:49 am

Well, since legal things take forever to move through the system, it may very well likely be that he'll have more information come December when they next meet on this case. He just needs to give them everything prior to trying the case, which could be a long time from now.
The judge should recuse himself due to conflict of interest.
-The judges daughter worked for the Harris campaign and indirectly for the Biden-Harris campaign
-The judge donated to the Biden campaign.
In other words the judge is overseeing a case against the chief political rival that his daughter worked for and he donated to.

Also the judge didn’t set the trial date this summer. He didn’t set it this fall. He set it 9 months from now in Jan 2024 (would tum into at least Feb) literally at the height of the primary when the campaign will be decided.

The whole thing reeks of bananna republic politics..
Live by them, die by them. :coffee:
The best way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - Noam Chomsky
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by UNI88 »

BDKJMU wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:01 am
GannonFan wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:49 am Well, since legal things take forever to move through the system, it may very well likely be that he'll have more information come December when they next meet on this case. He just needs to give them everything prior to trying the case, which could be a long time from now.
The judge should recuse himself due to conflict of interest.
-The judges daughter worked for the Harris campaign and indirectly for the Biden-Harris campaign
-The judge donated to the Biden campaign.
In other words the judge is overseeing a case against the chief political rival that his daughter worked for and he donated to.

Also the judge didn’t set the trial date this summer. He didn’t set it this fall. He set it 9 months from now in Jan 2024 (would tum into at least Feb) literally at the height of the primary when the campaign will be decided.

The whole thing reeks of bananna republic politics..
Gotta love the irony of followers of a tinpot dictator wannabe complaining about banana republic politics.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by UNI88 »

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Speaking of pathetic ...

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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by BDKJMU »

..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by kalm »

Jesus….2nd is just 1st loser. SAD!

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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:26 pm Image

Speaking of pathetic ...

Image
When its time to haul ass he'll have to make two trips. :shock:
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by UNI88 »

houndawg wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:26 pm Image

Speaking of pathetic ...

Image
When its time to haul ass he'll have to make two trips. :shock:
A trip for each cheek. Won’t he need a third and probably fourth trip for his yuge gut?


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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by houndawg »

UNI88 wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 4:34 pm
houndawg wrote:
When its time to haul ass he'll have to make two trips. :shock:
A trip for each cheek. Won’t he need a third and probably fourth trip for his yuge gut?


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They may just do like they did with the dead whale that washed up on the beach in Oregon.....kaboom
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

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he didn't want to speak in front of a jury under oath. he wanted to be able to lie to the press and people on truth social.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

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Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

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Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by UNI88 »



So much for the 14th Amendment. Proof that both extremes want to tear down or ignore the institutions and parts of the Constitution they disagree with.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

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UNI88 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm

So much for the 14th Amendment. Proof that both extremes want to tear down or ignore the institutions and parts of the Constitution they disagree with.
The 14th Amendment was passed/ratified in 1868 to grant citizenship & rights to former slaves & their descendants. It had nothing to do with children of illegal immigrants.

What other modern industrialized countries grant birthright citizenship to children of illegal immigrants?
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm

So much for the 14th Amendment. Proof that both extremes want to tear down or ignore the institutions and parts of the Constitution they disagree with.
:lol:

It’s not so much that he says it, it’s that it resonates with 10’s of millions.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by UNI88 »

BDKJMU wrote:
UNI88 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:12 pm

So much for the 14th Amendment. Proof that both extremes want to tear down or ignore the institutions and parts of the Constitution they disagree with.
The 14th Amendment was passed/ratified in 1868 to grant citizenship & rights to former slaves & their descendants. It had nothing to do with children of illegal immigrants.

What other modern industrialized countries grant birthright citizenship to children of illegal immigrants?
You sound amazingly like a gun control advocate talking about the 2nd.


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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by BDKJMU »

UNI88 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:53 pm
BDKJMU wrote: The 14th Amendment was passed/ratified in 1868 to grant citizenship & rights to former slaves & their descendants. It had nothing to do with children of illegal immigrants.

What other modern industrialized countries grant birthright citizenship to children of illegal immigrants?
You sound amazingly like a gun control advocate talking about the 2nd.


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Wrong. But nice try.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by UNI88 »

BDKJMU wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:13 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:53 pm

You sound amazingly like a gun control advocate talking about the 2nd.


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Wrong. But nice try.
Why not?
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
The 14th Amendment is pretty clear. If it is interpreted literally then all people born in the United States are citizens.

The only way to get around that is to argue that the times have changed which is what gun control advocates do. Gun control advocate also like to point out the laws in "other modern industrialized countries".

trump and MAGAts want to erode the 14th Amendment just like gun control advocates want to erode the 2nd. Both sides want to pick and choose which laws and institutions should be respected rather than respecting them all.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:37 am
BDKJMU wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:13 pm
Wrong. But nice try.
Why not?
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
The 14th Amendment is pretty clear. If it is interpreted literally then all people born in the United States are citizens.

The only way to get around that is to argue that the times have changed which is what gun control advocates do. Gun control advocate also like to point out the laws in "other modern industrialized countries".

trump and MAGAts want to erode the 14th Amendment just like gun control advocates want to erode the 2nd. Both sides want to pick and choose which laws and institutions should be respected rather than respecting them all.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by GannonFan »

kalm wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:47 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:37 am

Why not?



The 14th Amendment is pretty clear. If it is interpreted literally then all people born in the United States are citizens.

The only way to get around that is to argue that the times have changed which is what gun control advocates do. Gun control advocate also like to point out the laws in "other modern industrialized countries".

trump and MAGAts want to erode the 14th Amendment just like gun control advocates want to erode the 2nd. Both sides want to pick and choose which laws and institutions should be respected rather than respecting them all.
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Re: Donald Trump gaffe and verbal bungles watch

Post by BDKJMU »

UNI88 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:37 am
BDKJMU wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:13 pm
Wrong. But nice try.
Why not?
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
The 14th Amendment is pretty clear. If it is interpreted literally then all people born in the United States are citizens.

The only way to get around that is to argue that the times have changed which is what gun control advocates do. Gun control advocate also like to point out the laws in "other modern industrialized countries".

trump and MAGAts want to erode the 14th Amendment just like gun control advocates want to erode the 2nd. Both sides want to pick and choose which laws and institutions should be respected rather than respecting them all.
That’s not how originalists interpret the law. An orginalist would interpret it as to how it was intended to be understood at the time it was written.

2A has been interpreted by originalists to be understood AT THE TIME it was written to be the individual right to keep and bear arms. Ex at the time the phrase ‘well regulated’ meant proficiency in marksmanship..

How would an originalist interpretation of the 14th be interpreted to be understood AT THE TIME (shortly after the War Between the States ended) to be anything other than dealing with citizenship for the freed slaves?
Last edited by BDKJMU on Wed May 31, 2023 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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