Coronavirus COVID-19

[Winterborn]

It would be if it was a novel coronavirus traced to practically next door from NYU’s virology institute, and NYU’s virology institute was doing gain of function research on novel coronaviruses, with shoddy lab practices..

Look man, it really doesn't matter. The virus got out there; my point is there's probably no worldwide conspiracy here. You can believe you know something the rest of us don't. It doesn't affect me either way.

I'm just a simple man who likes statistics. If most (all?) pandemics so far are zoonotic in origin, this one most likely is as well.

My original post was primarily to address the vaccine and masks.

I would say that the families of the millions dead are enough reason to care about how this started and how we can prevent it occurring again wouldn't you?

[Winterborn]

I am not Ganny or Ibanez (shudder.....), but I will give you my .

COVID was accidentally released from a shoddy Chinese lab that was directly funded by the EcoHealth Alliance doing gain of function research that was illegal to do here in the U.S. and those funds were directed to EcoHealth Alliance at the orders of Fauci, as an end run around the rules he didn't agree with or as a way to funnel money into other areas for favors (there are probably multiple reasons, both good and bad that the money went were it did).

The coverup/suppression of the above started within weeks (February 2020) when Fauci realized that his name would come out as a primary funder of the research that directly led to this. He did what any career bureaucrat excels at, and that is muddying the waters enough to divert attention away from anything that hinted it might come back to implicate him (i.e. the commissioned paper that it wasn't from a lab). Throw in the media's revulsion of all things Trump and he had a willing patsy to peddle his false narrative that Trump's comments on it might be from a lab were wrong. Once the narrative was set and rolling, it took on a life of its own as people in power (media, politicians, etc.) had a vested interest in keeping it going, because to do otherwise would imply that they were wrong. Spreading around millions in new grant dollars and holding hostage existing grant dollars via proxy (they would go away if people started digging into COVID's origins), meant that Fauci (and others) had significant reason in doing what they did.

The COVID shot aka "vaccine" (and the furor around it) was peddled to keep the above narrative going and as a distraction from people digging into the history of where COVID 19 came from. The narrative snowballed into justifying lock-downs, mass forced shots, and usurpation of freedoms (making hay while the sun shines), etc.. The COVID shot is nothing more than a glorified flu shot and designed to help boost the immune system of those that are most susceptible to COVID. Basically those 55+ and immunocompromised, the rest of us really didn't need it, provided we are moderately healthy but needed to be evaluated on a personal basis. But good business for Big Pharma, hence the mandates.

The mask stupidity (and it was full blown stupidity not even remotely based in anything related to science due to the vast environmental circumstances around wearing one) was one more thing trotted out to help divert attention from the origins and keep a segment of the population under control and to project the idea that the "government" knew what was best (see first paragraph why they wanted to portray this).

The whole last three or so years is easily explainable through people not wanting to admit they were wrong (ego), people realizing they would be caught breaking the law, and people believing the government had their best interest in mind (this last point is my opinion and is greatly dependent on ones political and mental processes).

What a bunch of complete nonsense.

Only 6 words.

Next time I will mention Trump more.

[SeattleGriz]

What a bunch of complete nonsense.

Only 6 words.

Next time I will mention Trump more.

Is it me, or does StOnge come across as someone who works for a taxpayer funded organization? Government is always awesome and altruistic!

[SeattleGriz]

The COVID shot is nothing more than a glorified flu shot and designed to help boost the immune system of those that are most susceptible to COVID. Basically those 55+ and immunocompromised, the rest of us really didn't need it, provided we are moderately healthy but needed to be evaluated on a personal basis.

I mean it's really not a glorified flu shot. With the flu shot, it's educated guesswork on the type of antigen that needs to be presented to your body. With mRNA vaccines, we tell our body to make the exact antigen (aka. spike protein) found in SARS-CoV-2. After the antigen is identified by the B cells, the the Humoral process is the same for both the flu shot and mRNA vaccine. Then with the normal DNA replication process, the RNA dissolves shortly afterwards as typical with RNA. It's pretty amazing technology with a lot of potential heading forward.

The mask stupidity (and it was full blown stupidity not even remotely based in anything related to science due to the vast environmental circumstances around wearing one) was one more thing trotted out to help divert attention from the origins and keep a segment of the population under control and to project the idea that the "government" knew what was best (see first paragraph why they wanted to portray this).

Masks were (and still are) not stupid, especially early in the pandemic when we had little data about the virus, no vaccines, and only knew it was an airborne disease. We know masks work, especially N95, because airborne viral particles - while small - don't move in a linear motion. They erratically float around and get caught up in the twisting fibers of masks. Additionally, masks only need to protect you enough that you don't receive a deadly load of the virus; they're not designed as a panacea for infection.

Next time, put any piece of cotton or cloth over a boiling pot. You'll notice an immediate reduction of steam passing through. Now imagine the steam as a deadly virus, while keeping in mind water molecules are even smaller than SARS-CoV-2 (0.27 nanometers vs. 100 nanometers).

I can't speak to the origins of the Covid-19 pandemic, but I highly doubt there is some worldwide conspiracy. Most US departments, worldwide health organizations, and scientists still believe it originated from an animal -> human jump. We might never know, but it's also the most logical explanation considering how most viral pandemics have come to be.

I can't speak for Winterborn, but assume his comparison was how neither the flu or COVID shot prevented you from catching either.

I find real irony in Fauci's latest paper where they admit that a vaccine cannot force your body to do something it won't do naturally, which is prevent infection from colds, flus or COVID. That should tell you something. Either it's impossible or it's not wise to elicit that level of immune reaction over continual assaults during cold and flu season. Everyone in the industry knew this.

[kalm]

I mean it's really not a glorified flu shot. With the flu shot, it's educated guesswork on the type of antigen that needs to be presented to your body. With mRNA vaccines, we tell our body to make the exact antigen (aka. spike protein) found in SARS-CoV-2. After the antigen is identified by the B cells, the the Humoral process is the same for both the flu shot and mRNA vaccine. Then with the normal DNA replication process, the RNA dissolves shortly afterwards as typical with RNA. It's pretty amazing technology with a lot of potential heading forward.




Masks were (and still are) not stupid, especially early in the pandemic when we had little data about the virus, no vaccines, and only knew it was an airborne disease. We know masks work, especially N95, because airborne viral particles - while small - don't move in a linear motion. They erratically float around and get caught up in the twisting fibers of masks. Additionally, masks only need to protect you enough that you don't receive a deadly load of the virus; they're not designed as a panacea for infection.

Next time, put any piece of cotton or cloth over a boiling pot. You'll notice an immediate reduction of steam passing through. Now imagine the steam as a deadly virus, while keeping in mind water molecules are even smaller than SARS-CoV-2 (0.27 nanometers vs. 100 nanometers).

I can't speak to the origins of the Covid-19 pandemic, but I highly doubt there is some worldwide conspiracy. Most US departments, worldwide health organizations, and scientists still believe it originated from an animal -> human jump. We might never know, but it's also the most logical explanation considering how most viral pandemics have come to be.

It is a glorified flue shot. It temporally boosts your bodies response to a contagion. That is about it.

N95's work in a controlled lab environment for a very limited time. Nothing like what was proposed to work in the real world. But hey, people need to feel like they are in control so they don't panic. Masks were put in place for psychological reasons with the filmiest backing that is not only collopasing due to more rigorous testing (that correlates more to actual real world conditions) but that testing is validating what was known, and accepted, prior to this pandemic.

I never said there was a conspiracy. One of the only labs working on that particular protein splice, known for shoddy lab practices that has had a several oops in the past. No known animal crossover carrier has been found and a fact that said protein splice has never been found in another similar virus naturally.

It is not my logic that seems to be on flimsy ground. And CYA is a pretty powerful motivator especially when multi-millions of dollars were handed out in this area during 2020 to people directly involved in gain of function research, which just happened to coincide with denials from said parties that gain of function research could not of caused this. Not to mention that the very reason this line of research was shut down was because of concerns over ethics. Millions dead because of what people funded is a very powerful motivator. The U.S. and Chinese government have covered up much less for less risk in the past. I have been apart of projects that entail 10's of millions of dollars and the stupid crap that leaders do on those projects to not admit they were wrong is amazing. In a court of law, not admitting to millions dead is more than enough motivation for the narrative that was pushed out by the CDC. One which the Chinese were more than happy to go along with as it saved them face.

I do not think it was deliberate just a few people breaking the laws and got caught with their pants around their ankles because of shoddy lab practices due to the fact that the only place they could farm out the research to was a dictatorial regime that has multiple known human rights violations and a track record for cutting corners.

Please expand on why you think it’s a glorified flu shot.

[kalm]

While we’re at it, a buddy got it at work. He works for a regional forklift repair company. It ran like wildfire through his shop. He’s still feeling symptoms (yes he’s vaccinated) two weeks later. His wife has been pretty much bed ridden with it the entire time. A 36 year old co-worker in great health is now hospitalized with a pulmonary aneurism (don’t know his vax status).

Anecdotal? Sure. Is it still out there? Yes. Running on three years now.

[Winterborn]

Only 6 words.

Next time I will mention Trump more.

Is it me, or does StOnge come across as someone who works for a taxpayer funded organization? Government is always awesome and altruistic!

He has said as much multiple times.

The overconfident bias is an interesting phenomenon.

[Winterborn]

Please expand on why you think it’s a glorified flu shot.

You first.

Tell me why you think it isn't.

[Winterborn]

While we’re at it, a buddy got it at work. He works for a regional forklift repair company. It ran like wildfire through his shop. He’s still feeling symptoms (yes he’s vaccinated) two weeks later. His wife has been pretty much bed ridden with it the entire time. A 36 year old co-worker in great health is now hospitalized with a pulmonary aneurism (don’t know his vax status).

Anecdotal? Sure. Is it still out there? Yes. Running on three years now.

Anybody who denies that it isn't still out there is a fool.

The genie has escaped and we get to live with it now. Good news is that while it hasn't mutated away, it is drastically less lethal now and that continues to drop.

[Winterborn]

I can't speak for Winterborn, but assume his comparison was how neither the flu or COVID shot prevented you from catching either.

I find real irony in Fauci's latest paper where they admit that a vaccine cannot force your body to do something it won't do naturally, which is prevent infection from colds, flus or COVID. That should tell you something. Either it's impossible or it's not wise to elicit that level of immune reaction over continual assaults during cold and flu season. Everyone in the industry knew this.

I will expound a bit as soon as Klam answers my question.

[kalm]

Please expand on why you think it’s a glorified flu shot.

You first.

Tell me why you think it isn't.

Your assertion my friend. I’m not saying you’re wrong and you’re not one to make off the cuff statements so I’m expecting some research to back it up.

[kalm]

I can't speak for Winterborn, but assume his comparison was how neither the flu or COVID shot prevented you from catching either.

I find real irony in Fauci's latest paper where they admit that a vaccine cannot force your body to do something it won't do naturally, which is prevent infection from colds, flus or COVID. That should tell you something. Either it's impossible or it's not wise to elicit that level of immune reaction over continual assaults during cold and flu season. Everyone in the industry knew this.

I will expound a bit as soon as Klam answers my question.

So according to Seagriz I don’t really need the flu shot despite my compromised immune system. Do you agree?

Are all previous vaccines against viruses such? Of just corona viruses or just airborne viruses?

Am I, my family, all of my sibs and my wife’s sibs, and almost all of our closest friends just lucky? (Not all of them could socially isolate, and two are nurses who worked Covid wards.

[Winterborn]

You first.

Tell me why you think it isn't.

Your assertion my friend. I’m not saying you’re wrong and you’re not one to make off the cuff statements so I’m expecting some research to back it up.

It is. Think of this as a professor giving the class (you) some homework.

Both the COVID and Flu shot only last for a short time due to the fact both virus mutate rapidly. They are a initial boost to ones immune system to help the body fight of that variant. A COVID shot lasts about 6 months (at best) and then one is left with a declining resistant. Flu shot is about the same.

And like SG said, neither protect you from getting it (like a traditional vaccine), their usefulness comes after the fact. At least to those most susceptible to either virus. Neither are a vaccine like a polio or others that last years and provide lifetime residual effectiveness.

Both are disease we will have to live with forever and any "hope" of eradicating COVID was impossible.

SG feel free to correct me if I miss-stated something.

[Winterborn]

I will expound a bit as soon as Klam answers my question.

So according to Seagriz I don’t really need the flu shot despite my compromised immune system. Do you agree?

Are all previous vaccines against viruses such? Of just corona viruses or just airborne viruses?

Am I, my family, all of my sibs and my wife’s sibs, and almost all of our closest friends just lucky? (Not all of them could socially isolate, and two are nurses who worked Covid wards.

No. You get what the doctor and you decide for your health conditions.

I am not against any of the COVID shots (or flu), just against blanket mandates.

As for lucky, I do not know. I never socially isolated, was traveling though major airports (business essential job), and never got it. Was around multiple people who had it (including family members) but still did not get it. The only reason I got the shots was to travel. Outside of that, I would have never got any of it. Just like I never get the flu shot and haven't had the flu since grade school.

[∞∞∞]

I just listen to my doctor. She said to take the booster every 6 months, so I'll take it every six months. Flu shot every year? I'll take it every year. She went to medical school for God-knows-how-long and...I did not.

They're free shots which temporarily boost my immune system, I've always listened to my doctor, and she's kept me alive and fairly healthy so far. I'd like to think it's a crappy business model if she let her clients die from preventable diseases.

But hey, medical autonomy is a thing.

[Winterborn]

I just listen to my doctor. She said to take the booster every 6 months, so I'll take it every six months. Flu shot every year? I'll take it every year.

They're free shots which temporarily boost my immune system, I've always listened to my doctor, and she's kept me alive and fairly healthy so far. I'd like to think it's a crappy business model if she let her clients die from preventable diseases.

I never advocate not listening to your doctor. My doctor said I didn't need any of it due to my health.

I am all for Doctors doing the proscribing, not bureaucrats and politicians. They can advise, but it should be up to the individual and their doctor.

It is a nuanced approach but one that I think would have avoid most of the public backlash at the politicizing of the CDC.

[∞∞∞]

Everyone has the choice to take the shot or not. I don't think at any point it hasn't been the case. Heck, you can be in the ambulance having a heart attack and your right to medical autonomy allows you to stop the ride, get out, and die on the side of the road. Only in cases where someone can't make a decision are doctors allowed to interfere (unconsciousness, intellectual disabilities, public safety, etc.)

That said, I'm fine with employers or businesses requiring it for their own safety or insurance costs. I'm fine with insurance companies requiring it to lower their risks. Individual will ALWAYS have medical autonomy, but society is also allowed to post consequences for the decision.

[kalm]

So according to Seagriz I don’t really need the flu shot despite my compromised immune system. Do you agree?

Are all previous vaccines against viruses such? Of just corona viruses or just airborne viruses?

Am I, my family, all of my sibs and my wife’s sibs, and almost all of our closest friends just lucky? (Not all of them could socially isolate, and two are nurses who worked Covid wards.

No. You get what the doctor and you decide for your health conditions.

I am not against any of the COVID shots (or flu), just against blanket mandates.

As for lucky, I do not know. I never socially isolated, was traveling though major airports (business essential job), and never got it. Was around multiple people who had it (including family members) but still did not get it. The only reason I got the shots was to travel. Outside of that, I would have never got any of it. Just like I never get the flu shot and haven't had the flu since grade school.

My farmer friend swears by washing his hands in cow shit as often as possible.

I’m on to your secrets.

[Winterborn]

No. You get what the doctor and you decide for your health conditions.

I am not against any of the COVID shots (or flu), just against blanket mandates.

As for lucky, I do not know. I never socially isolated, was traveling though major airports (business essential job), and never got it. Was around multiple people who had it (including family members) but still did not get it. The only reason I got the shots was to travel. Outside of that, I would have never got any of it. Just like I never get the flu shot and haven't had the flu since grade school.

My farmer friend swears by washing his hands in cow shit as often as possible.

I’m on to your secrets.

Since you are in on it, it is actually walking barefoot though the stockpen.

It all comes down to genetics, IMHO. Many of my ancestors died so my sick days would sit unused. It is just horrible.

[GannonFan]

Everyone has the choice to take the shot or not. I don't think at any point it hasn't been the case. Heck, you can be in the ambulance having a heart attack and your right to medical autonomy allows you to stop the ride, get out, and die on the side of the road. Only in cases where someone can't make a decision are doctors allowed to interfere (unconsciousness, mental retardation, safety, etc.)

That said, I'm fine with employers or businesses requiring it for their own safety or insurance costs. I'm fine with insurance companies requiring it to lower their risks. Individual will ALWAYS have medical autonomy, but society is also allowed to post consequences for the decision.

No argument here. Suppose, with the COVID vaccine, though, there should've been some restraint by those who did mandate it to at least wait it out to see how safe the vaccine was and how necessary it was. The safety part of it is probably okay (although a few more years of it and we'll have a complete picture), but the necessary part didn't materialize. And probably even more of a question when government mandates it as opposed to employers or businesses.

[Winterborn]

Everyone has the choice to take the shot or not. I don't think at any point it hasn't been the case. Heck, you can be in the ambulance having a heart attack and your right to medical autonomy allows you to stop the ride, get out, and die on the side of the road. Only in cases where someone can't make a decision are doctors allowed to interfere (unconsciousness, intellectual disabilities, public safety, etc.)

That said, I'm fine with employers or businesses requiring it for their own safety or insurance costs. I'm fine with insurance companies requiring it to lower their risks. Individual will ALWAYS have medical autonomy, but society is also allowed to post consequences for the decision.

Don't disagree.

Without risk, there is no freedom.

[Winterborn]

Everyone has the choice to take the shot or not. I don't think at any point it hasn't been the case. Heck, you can be in the ambulance having a heart attack and your right to medical autonomy allows you to stop the ride, get out, and die on the side of the road. Only in cases where someone can't make a decision are doctors allowed to interfere (unconsciousness, mental retardation, safety, etc.)

That said, I'm fine with employers or businesses requiring it for their own safety or insurance costs. I'm fine with insurance companies requiring it to lower their risks. Individual will ALWAYS have medical autonomy, but society is also allowed to post consequences for the decision.

No argument here. Suppose, with the COVID vaccine, though, there should've been some restraint by those who did mandate it to at least wait it out to see how safe the vaccine was and how necessary it was. The safety part of it is probably okay (although a few more years of it and we'll have a complete picture), but the necessary part didn't materialize. And probably even more of a question when government mandates it as opposed to employers or businesses.

I said way back in the beginning of this thread that it will take 5 or so years for the accurate picture to come out once the politicizing blows over.

[GannonFan]

No argument here. Suppose, with the COVID vaccine, though, there should've been some restraint by those who did mandate it to at least wait it out to see how safe the vaccine was and how necessary it was. The safety part of it is probably okay (although a few more years of it and we'll have a complete picture), but the necessary part didn't materialize. And probably even more of a question when government mandates it as opposed to employers or businesses.

I said way back in the beginning of this thread that it will take 5 or so years for the accurate picture to come out once the politicizing blows over.

Assuming the politicizing ever does blow over. Still see plenty of politicizing now regarding the research into the origins. Might need to have a lot of the political types involved in it die off before we can critically review all of this.

[∞∞∞]

I believe the COVID vaccines were the most tested vaccines in human history before being rolled out. And don't quote me on this, but I believe it is now the most studied vaccine in human history as well, surpassing polio vaccination data.

Like the polio vaccines, they were rolled out to the entire world so we have a TON of data at this point.

And like you, I'm not worried about the long-term issues based on my rudimentary knowledge of microbiology (which coincidentally, I'm taking now. And even more coincidentally, we're currently studying DNA replication including mRNA).

[Winterborn]

I said way back in the beginning of this thread that it will take 5 or so years for the accurate picture to come out once the politicizing blows over.

Assuming the politicizing ever does blow over. Still see plenty of politicizing now regarding the research into the origins. Might need to have a lot of the political types involved in it die off before we can critically review all of this.

That is a valid point and I might have been optimistic back then.

There is but I think one can get around that noise in the origin research (I have ignored what Congress has done and did my own digging using the source materials they try to reference). Either way the origin finger pointing is a distraction into what we can learn from this for the future. That cat is out of the bag already and the only thing left is who is to blame (my guess is we will never know for sure). My hope is real world testing is continued on masks (some of which has been done already), continued research into mRNA technology and the pros/cons of using it (I think it has potential), and the role our Government should/needs to play.