Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:06 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:58 am

That's great...and smart, but seeing the cycle threshold would help.
No, because the people that pass out the paychecks would have to meet to change the rules. I am conservative by nature, I follow rules more closely than others.
I'm with you on rules. Wasn't implying that we change rules just for this guy. The disclosure of the cycle threshold should have been part of the testing from the beginning. All testing outside of PGA as well. When the NY Times publishes an article calling out false positives as high as 88%, the downfalls should be well known.

I just always wonder about false positives, especially when you hear asymptomatic.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:59 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:06 am

No, because the people that pass out the paychecks would have to meet to change the rules. I am conservative by nature, I follow rules more closely than others.
I'm with you on rules. Wasn't implying that we change rules just for this guy. The disclosure of the cycle threshold should have been part of the testing from the beginning. All testing outside of PGA as well. When the NY Times publishes an article calling out false positives as high as 88%, the downfalls should be well known.

I just always wonder about false positives, especially when you hear asymptomatic.
Link to the NYT piece?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Pwns »

Well, then.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Ivytalk »

Pwns wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:55 am Well, then.

Bloody PRC butchers.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:34 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:59 am

I'm with you on rules. Wasn't implying that we change rules just for this guy. The disclosure of the cycle threshold should have been part of the testing from the beginning. All testing outside of PGA as well. When the NY Times publishes an article calling out false positives as high as 88%, the downfalls should be well known.

I just always wonder about false positives, especially when you hear asymptomatic.
Link to the NYT piece?
Even on incognito, I'm getting a paywall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/heal ... sting.html

I'll see if I can find the article talking about how the cycle thresholds affects the false positives. Got stupid work today though! Meetings all day. :lol:

If I can't find a good article I'll type out what is going on, for it's really not difficult to understand when explained.
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Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by CID1990 »

The quote function isnt working on my phone for some reason.

This reply is for SG

Viruses do not behave that way universally. Just because you have had a virus does not mean you have gained more immunity compared to if you had a vaccination. mRNA vaccines force the immune system to target a very narrowly focused part of the receptor proteins. Actually having the virus does not do this.

Coronaviruses are a prime example - this is why the is little to zero known conferred immunity to the common cold, which is also caused by a coronavirus.

Declaring that acquired immunity is somehow > than a vaccine has zero basis in scientific fact

You are using logic to describe biological process - that is a fatal flaw


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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

SDHornet wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:39 pm
Aka fascism. :nod:

But hey! Corporations are people or something.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

kalm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:13 am
SDHornet wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:39 pm
Aka fascism. :nod:

But hey! Corporations are people or something.
I thought fascism was beaten when Trump lost? Are you saying a cabal between corporations and a Donk administration can be fascist? I thought the government was going to save us from ourselves.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

BDKJMU wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:31 am Another lackluster jobs report that misses the estimate, only 559k jobs added. At least that tops last months paltry 278k. Now that close to
Despite the gains, the U.S. economy has 7.6 million, or 5%, fewer workers from its February 2020 pre-pandemic level.

"Only a few months ago we had expected to see several months' worth of gains north of one million as the economy reopened, but labor supply is bouncing back much more slowly than demand," said Paul Ashworth, chief U.S. economist at research firm Capital Economics.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/job ... t-may-2021

25 conk states ending the enhanced China Virus unemployment between mid May-mid July, before the 9/11 end date, so that should improve the #s..
Record 9.3 million job oepnings in April..
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/job ... re-workers
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:44 am
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:13 am

Aka fascism. :nod:

But hey! Corporations are people or something.
I thought fascism was beaten when Trump lost? Are you saying a cabal between corporations and a Donk administration can be fascist? I thought the government was going to save us from ourselves.
And klammy walked right into it. :clap:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by GannonFan »

SDHornet wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:09 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:44 am

I thought fascism was beaten when Trump lost? Are you saying a cabal between corporations and a Donk administration can be fascist? I thought the government was going to save us from ourselves.
And klammy walked right into it. :clap:
Plus kalmie has been adamant that fascism is solely the province of the far right. Someone has to tell the progressives that they've jumped to the other side of the political spectrum. :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

SDHornet wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:39 pm
1) We do not know that there was a Chinese lab leak to cover up. People are WAY jumping to conclusions because of a report that some lab workers got sick. A lot of other nonsense going around too like that Quay guy saying the virus has a genetic characteristic that is unlikely for a coronavirus that evolved naturally when people who actually study coronaviruses say otherwise. Just all kinds of crap flying around right now.

2) There is absolutely nothing wrong with that letter. Zuckerberg proposed a "hub" to "make sure people can get authoritative information from reliable sources" and encourage people to practice social distancing while providing some ideas about doing it. THE HORROR.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by JohnStOnge »

BTW, people are acting now like the idea that it's POSSIBLE the virus could have escaped from a lab had always been rejected until this most recent thing. That is not true. You can see that by looking at the USA Today fact check at https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 881150001/.

That Fact Check was originally published in March, 2020. There is a note that it was updated in February, 2021. I don't know what was updated. But, in any case, the original and the update both pre-date this most recent thing. A quote:
While experts agree the virus came from nature, its origins beyond that remain unclear.

One scenario has the virus occurring naturally – from a bat, say – but accidentally escaping the research facility because of poor safety protocols.
The USA today piece says Fauci was dismissive with respect to the possibility of a lab leak but then the quote they attribute to him isn't that. It's just a quote saying evolutionary virologists said what they saw is consistent with an animal to human jump. You could have an animal to human jump and still have a lab leak.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:04 pm
SDHornet wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:39 pm
1) We do not know that there was a Chinese lab leak to cover up. People are WAY jumping to conclusions because of a report that some lab workers got sick. A lot of other nonsense going around too like that Quay guy saying the virus has a genetic characteristic that is unlikely for a coronavirus that evolved naturally when people who actually study coronaviruses say otherwise. Just all kinds of crap flying around right now.

2) There is absolutely nothing wrong with that letter. Zuckerberg proposed a "hub" to "make sure people can get authoritative information from reliable sources" and encourage people to practice social distancing while providing some ideas about doing it. THE HORROR.
If youu don‘t think the CPC knows exactly what happened then I‘ve got some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you. If the CPC had the proof it was Zoonotic they would have released it long ago. That leaves only a lab leak. They’ll try to keep that evidence from ever coming out because if how devastating it would be to China in the eyes of the world.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:24 pm BTW, people are acting now like the idea that it's POSSIBLE the virus could have escaped from a lab had always been rejected until this most recent thing. That is not true. You can see that by looking at the USA Today fact check at https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 881150001/.

That Fact Check was originally published in March, 2020. There is a note that it was updated in February, 2021. I don't know what was updated. But, in any case, the original and the update both pre-date this most recent thing. A quote:
While experts agree the virus came from nature, its origins beyond that remain unclear.

One scenario has the virus occurring naturally – from a bat, say – but accidentally escaping the research facility because of poor safety protocols.
The USA today piece says Fauci was dismissive with respect to the possibility of a lab leak but then the quote they attribute to him isn't that. It's just a quote saying evolutionary virologists said what they saw is consistent with an animal to human jump. You could have an animal to human jump and still have a lab leak.
Your transition is complete. You’ve gone from card-carrying Liberian to mouthpiece for the Chinese government in a little less than 2 years.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

CID1990 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:14 pm The quote function isnt working on my phone for some reason.

This reply is for SG

Viruses do not behave that way universally. Just because you have had a virus does not mean you have gained more immunity compared to if you had a vaccination. mRNA vaccines force the immune system to target a very narrowly focused part of the receptor proteins. Actually having the virus does not do this.

Coronaviruses are a prime example - this is why the is little to zero known conferred immunity to the common cold, which is also caused by a coronavirus.

Declaring that acquired immunity is somehow > than a vaccine has zero basis in scientific fact

You are using logic to describe biological process - that is a fatal flaw


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Glad someone on this board is pushing back!

In regards to your statement there is zero scientific basis, I have to disagree. If you perform any search on natural immunity vs vaccination and sort results before COVID, the hits are littered with statements from Immunologists and Public Health officials about how natural immunity is better than vaccination...but you run the risk of the disease beating the crap out of you to get natural immunity. I'm not worried about that with COVID.

As to the common cold, there are other families besides Coronavirus, like Rhinovirus, etc and we have around 200 different versions of the cold, so that in my opinion is the largest reason we can't have a universal cold vaccine, plus colds mostly don't tax the immune system causing a huge immune response.

Lastly, we have three studies...albeit preprint, which means they haven't been peer reviewed.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... onses.aspx
Their findings reveal that, unlike vaccination, natural SARS-CoV-2 infection is associated with a robust interferon response together with an induction of cytotoxic gene expression in peripheral blood lymphocytes
Interferon response and cytotoxic gene expression (perforin plus other factors) are huge.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... ction.aspx
There was a difference between the antibodies elicited by natural infection compared to that from the vaccine. Since the vaccine does not have the nucleocapsid protein, there are no antibodies against this in the vaccine-induced antibodies. However, antibodies against nucleocapsid were seen in natural infection, suggesting this could be a biomarker for natural infection.
Nothing spectacular here, but I'm of the belief working through a virus naturally and having the whole virus leads to many benefits we haven't discovered.

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/2 ... ssion=true
Specifically, of all infections during the study period, 99.3% occurred in participants who were not infected previously and remained unvaccinated. In contrast, only 0.7% of infections occurred in participants who were not previously infected but were currently vaccinated.

Importantly, not a single incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection was observed in previously infected participants with or without vaccination.
You catch that bolded part? Of the 55,000 people in the study, not a one was someone with natural immunity. All were from the vaccinated group. 55k x .07 = 3850

Not to mention the studies coming out showing SAR1 infected still have immunity 17 years later.

I have no beef with the vaccine, just think if you've had COVID, it's better than the vaccine. By the way, I am current on all my vaccines and so are my children.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by UNI88 »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:20 pm
JohnStOnge wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:24 pm BTW, people are acting now like the idea that it's POSSIBLE the virus could have escaped from a lab had always been rejected until this most recent thing. That is not true. You can see that by looking at the USA Today fact check at https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 881150001/.

That Fact Check was originally published in March, 2020. There is a note that it was updated in February, 2021. I don't know what was updated. But, in any case, the original and the update both pre-date this most recent thing. A quote:

The USA today piece says Fauci was dismissive with respect to the possibility of a lab leak but then the quote they attribute to him isn't that. It's just a quote saying evolutionary virologists said what they saw is consistent with an animal to human jump. You could have an animal to human jump and still have a lab leak.
Your transition is complete. You’ve gone from card-carrying Liberian to mouthpiece for the Chinese government in a little less than 2 years.
Liberian?

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:57 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:20 pm

Your transition is complete. You’ve gone from card-carrying Liberian to mouthpiece for the Chinese government in a little less than 2 years.
Liberian?

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Well he certainly was never a libertarian. :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SeattleGriz »

kalm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:34 am
SeattleGriz wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:59 am

I'm with you on rules. Wasn't implying that we change rules just for this guy. The disclosure of the cycle threshold should have been part of the testing from the beginning. All testing outside of PGA as well. When the NY Times publishes an article calling out false positives as high as 88%, the downfalls should be well known.

I just always wonder about false positives, especially when you hear asymptomatic.
Link to the NYT piece?
Can't find a good article, so here it goes. I will generalize a bit here, so it may make some statements not completely accurate.

First off, I need to talk about viral load. Essentially it's the amount of virus in your system. You need to be OVER a certain threshold for a virus to make you ill. Below that threshold and your body is winning the war and you are not considered sick - also what they are calling asymptomatic.

With the PCR test, it looks for a specific genetic sequence on the virus. When it finds it, it then makes a copy. So after a cycle, you have twice the amount, and these cycles are repeated until the machine running the test can "see" the mass of genetic sequences. That tells the machine to stop. The total cycles run is called the cycle threshold - the thing I keep bitching about.

So for my example, let's say you need at least 40 billion copies of the genetic sequence for the machine to see the mass. You also need to be above 5000 copies in viral load to be truly ill

In example one, we start with only 5 (negative for illness) copies of the sequence, and after 35 cycles of doubling the genetic sequence, you have almost 43 billion copies.

In example two, we start with 7500 (positive for illness) copies of the sequence, and after 25 cycles of doubling the genetic sequence, you have almost 63 billion copies.

Both examples are over 40 billion copies and thus are considered positive due to the machine seeing the mass.

This is why running a PCR test above 28 cycles, runs the risk of a false positive. The genetic sequences are either leftover debris or you simply were under the original viral load to be ill.

What I am telling you is backed up by studies in which they take the samples and then culture them to grow the virus. You run too many cycles and the original sample really doesn't have enough virus to make someone sick, but the test is called positive, because you simply manufactured a positive. The culture will turn up negative because there really wasn't any live virus in the sample.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

SeattleGriz wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:42 pm
kalm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:34 am

Link to the NYT piece?
Can't find a good article, so here it goes. I will generalize a bit here, so it may make some statements not completely accurate.

First off, I need to talk about viral load. Essentially it's the amount of virus in your system. You need to be OVER a certain threshold for a virus to make you ill. Below that threshold and your body is winning the war and you are not considered sick - also what they are calling asymptomatic.

With the PCR test, it looks for a specific genetic sequence on the virus. When it finds it, it then makes a copy. So after a cycle, you have twice the amount, and these cycles are repeated until the machine running the test can "see" the mass of genetic sequences. That tells the machine to stop. The total cycles run is called the cycle threshold - the thing I keep bitching about.

So for my example, let's say you need at least 40 billion copies of the genetic sequence for the machine to see the mass. You also need to be above 5000 copies in viral load to be truly ill

In example one, we start with only 5 (negative for illness) copies of the sequence, and after 35 cycles of doubling the genetic sequence, you have almost 43 billion copies.

In example two, we start with 7500 (positive for illness) copies of the sequence, and after 25 cycles of doubling the genetic sequence, you have almost 63 billion copies.

Both examples are over 40 billion copies and thus are considered positive due to the machine seeing the mass.

This is why running a PCR test above 28 cycles, runs the risk of a false positive. The genetic sequences are either leftover debris or you simply were under the original viral load to be ill.

What I am telling you is backed up by studies in which they take the samples and then culture them to grow the virus. You run too many cycles and the original sample really doesn't have enough virus to make someone sick, but the test is called positive, because you simply manufactured a positive. The culture will turn up negative because there really wasn't any live virus in the sample.
We did talk viral load, when talking about mask reducing the viral load being dispersed into the air by people with Covid. But so many said that didn't make a difference.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by andy7171 »

UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:44 am
kalm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:13 am

Aka fascism. :nod:

But hey! Corporations are people or something.
I thought fascism was beaten when Trump lost? Are you saying a cabal between corporations and a Donk administration can be fascist? I thought the government was going to save us from ourselves.
It's awfully hard to stay balanced on the fence!

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Ibanez »

AZGrizFan wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:07 pm
UNI88 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:57 pm

Liberian?

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Ibanez »

I listen to "Daily Drive" on Spotify each mornings. It's a blend of music and news. I typically skip the WaPo but today I listened.

Apparently, the wealthier countries are flexing their inequality by creating the COVID vaccine and then providing it to the poorer nations. Somehow, our ability to create a vaccine over some poorer country has created a "vaccine bias" and "vaccine inequality."

You can't make this crap up.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Ibanez wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:23 am I listen to "Daily Drive" on Spotify each mornings. It's a blend of music and news. I typically skip the WaPo but today I listened.

Apparently, the wealthier countries are flexing their inequality by creating the COVID vaccine and then providing it to the poorer nations. Somehow, our ability to create a vaccine over some poorer country has created a "vaccine bias" and "vaccine inequality."

You can't make this crap up.
You can. And they do. :ohno: :ohno:
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