Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:40 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:21 am

Covid is medical, had we followed the medical advise, we wouldn't have the psychological and economic issues that followed. By not following the protocol, Covid spread, and the government got involved, leading to the psychological and economic issues. Several segments of the economy are booming right now, and at least where I am, there is not much that is on lockdown, just the slow release of the vaccine.
Politics played a part in people not following protocol but so did psychology and communications/marketing. The doctors arrogantly thought they could tell people what to do and people would just do it. They should have considered how to frame and communicate the message as well how to explain the changes in the recommendations.

Protocols were first put in place in March and adjusted but are still in place in varying formats. Do you really think that if people had followed the protocols this would have been under control in a matter of weeks? Because that is the only way we would have avoided the psychological and economic impacts. And a good psychologist/sociologist could have told the doctors that some people weren't going to follow the protocols and the doctors could have planned and communicated accordingly. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't going to bow before them and do exactly what they say. To expect people to do so is arrogant and demonstrates a lack of understanding of human nature.
Precisely my point in your first sentence. I must have missed the arrogant Doctors, my Doctor is pretty laid back, normal guy, easy to talk to about anything. The arrogant messages came from politically funded groups like the CDC, Who, Fauci, etc. I think many people, are confusing the medical profession with politically funded organizations that had their own messages, and yes, some had medial professionals working for them, but working for the good of their company, not the good of the American people.

I do believe if enough people followed the protocol, maybe 70-80%, we would have less cases of covid in this country then, during the peak and now. Politicians would not have jumped in with lockdowns and even mask mandates.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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GannonFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:08 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:21 am

Covid is medical, had we followed the medical advise, we wouldn't have the psychological and economic issues that followed. By not following the protocol, Covid spread, and the government got involved, leading to the psychological and economic issues. Several segments of the economy are booming right now, and at least where I am, there is not much that is on lockdown, just the slow release of the vaccine.
I actually disagree with this, and I'm not sure where you're even getting this. You're saying that this was able to be stopped in terms of spreading if people followed medical advice. But we weren't told to wear masks until late March/early April. This thing was spreading even here in the US back in January if not even a littler earlier. There was no medical advice saying things had to be different before March - international travel was still going on and everything was open. Even Fauci was saying that COVID wasn't something the US had to worry about. The only places in the world that were able to avoid COVID spread were Taiwan and New Zealand, and both were isolated islands that are easily able to close their doors to the outside world.

As for the current situation, I agree, even in PA, at this time, most everything, other than pro sports and schools, are basically open, with restrictions of course. If everyone is vaccinated by June as it seems to be, it will be a mostly normal summer and an even more normal fall.
I saw my first mask around March 10, coming back from vacation. I still believe, starting late March, early April, if people followed the protocol, we would have been pretty much back to normal by now.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:38 am
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:35 am

Even an attempt at it would have politically helped Trump not to mention assisted with fighting the pandemic for those who would have shown. Those who didn’t show would have been seen as the bad guys. There was little downside for Trump at least making the attempt.
Completely disagree. EVERYTHING he tried (or didn’t try) the donks took the opposing position on, for better or worse. The only governors that would have shown up were red states, they would have decided to remain open and try to save peoples’ livelihoods, and they’d have been flamesprayed for it, just like they have been for 12 months. They didn’t need a “meeting” to decide that.
I thought Trump was handling Covid rather well, until one day he decided to quite having the briefings. If he would have continued to have briefings, even weekly, on covid, he would be President.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:36 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:40 am
Politics played a part in people not following protocol but so did psychology and communications/marketing. The doctors arrogantly thought they could tell people what to do and people would just do it. They should have considered how to frame and communicate the message as well how to explain the changes in the recommendations.

Protocols were first put in place in March and adjusted but are still in place in varying formats. Do you really think that if people had followed the protocols this would have been under control in a matter of weeks? Because that is the only way we would have avoided the psychological and economic impacts. And a good psychologist/sociologist could have told the doctors that some people weren't going to follow the protocols and the doctors could have planned and communicated accordingly. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't going to bow before them and do exactly what they say. To expect people to do so is arrogant and demonstrates a lack of understanding of human nature.
Precisely my point in your first sentence. I must have missed the arrogant Doctors, my Doctor is pretty laid back, normal guy, easy to talk to about anything. The arrogant messages came from politically funded groups like the CDC, Who, Fauci, etc. I think many people, are confusing the medical profession with politically funded organizations that had their own messages, and yes, some had medial professionals working for them, but working for the good of their company, not the good of the American people.

I do believe if enough people followed the protocol, maybe 70-80%, we would have less cases of covid in this country then, during the peak and now. Politicians would not have jumped in with lockdowns and even mask mandates.
Is your doctor part of the President's council and going on TV and the media to give his/her expert opinion? Fauci and the like are the ones that arrogantly assumed that people would do what they (the "experts") told them to do and then compounded the error by not taking the time to explain why their recommendations were changing. There has plenty of arrogance on display by doctors and politicians throughout this pandemic.

I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, 70-80% of the people in the Portland area followed the protocol. We're doing well compared to most states but we've still had cases, deaths and spikes and that's with lockdowns. The protocols helped but they weren't a panacea.

Saving lives from Covid came with a cost of lives damaged by job loss, alcoholism, suicides, spousal & child abuse, etc. I'm not saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid was the wrong decision, I'm saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid without giving proper consideration to the consequences was short-sighted.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:18 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:36 am

Precisely my point in your first sentence. I must have missed the arrogant Doctors, my Doctor is pretty laid back, normal guy, easy to talk to about anything. The arrogant messages came from politically funded groups like the CDC, Who, Fauci, etc. I think many people, are confusing the medical profession with politically funded organizations that had their own messages, and yes, some had medial professionals working for them, but working for the good of their company, not the good of the American people.

I do believe if enough people followed the protocol, maybe 70-80%, we would have less cases of covid in this country then, during the peak and now. Politicians would not have jumped in with lockdowns and even mask mandates.
Is your doctor part of the President's council and going on TV and the media to give his/her expert opinion? Fauci and the like are the ones that arrogantly assumed that people would do what they (the "experts") told them to do and then compounded the error by not taking the time to explain why their recommendations were changing. There has plenty of arrogance on display by doctors and politicians throughout this pandemic.

I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, 70-80% of the people in the Portland area followed the protocol. We're doing well compared to most states but we've still had cases, deaths and spikes and that's with lockdowns. The protocols helped but they weren't a panacea.

Saving lives from Covid came with a cost of lives damaged by job loss, alcoholism, suicides, spousal & child abuse, etc. I'm not saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid was the wrong decision, I'm saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid without giving proper consideration to the consequences was short-sighted.
I think we have a difference of opinion on Fauci. He's a political pawn as I mentioned before. We also have a difference of opinion on people following protocol. Following Protocol properly, would not have stopped covid, it would have slowed the spread enough to keep businesses open and minimizing all the other side-affects on your list.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:32 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:18 pm Is your doctor part of the President's council and going on TV and the media to give his/her expert opinion? Fauci and the like are the ones that arrogantly assumed that people would do what they (the "experts") told them to do and then compounded the error by not taking the time to explain why their recommendations were changing. There has plenty of arrogance on display by doctors and politicians throughout this pandemic.

I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, 70-80% of the people in the Portland area followed the protocol. We're doing well compared to most states but we've still had cases, deaths and spikes and that's with lockdowns. The protocols helped but they weren't a panacea.

Saving lives from Covid came with a cost of lives damaged by job loss, alcoholism, suicides, spousal & child abuse, etc. I'm not saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid was the wrong decision, I'm saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid without giving proper consideration to the consequences was short-sighted.
I think we have a difference of opinion on Fauci. He's a political pawn as I mentioned before. We also have a difference of opinion on people following protocol. Following Protocol properly, would not have stopped covid, it would have slowed the spread enough to keep businesses open and minimizing all the other side-affects on your list.
Is Fauci an expert I should listen to or a pawn that I should disregard?

The vast majority of the people I've seen out and about have been following protocol (wearing masks properly and/or maintaining 6'+ distance) and it slowed the spread but not enough to keep businesses open.

Thanks to China and the WHO we started out behind the 8-Ball and a lot of the medical advice was a day late and a dollar short. Ganny nailed it.
GannonFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:08 am I actually disagree with this, and I'm not sure where you're even getting this. You're saying that this was able to be stopped in terms of spreading if people followed medical advice. But we weren't told to wear masks until late March/early April. This thing was spreading even here in the US back in January if not even a littler earlier. There was no medical advice saying things had to be different before March - international travel was still going on and everything was open. Even Fauci was saying that COVID wasn't something the US had to worry about. The only places in the world that were able to avoid COVID spread were Taiwan and New Zealand, and both were isolated islands that are easily able to close their doors to the outside world.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:18 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:36 am

Precisely my point in your first sentence. I must have missed the arrogant Doctors, my Doctor is pretty laid back, normal guy, easy to talk to about anything. The arrogant messages came from politically funded groups like the CDC, Who, Fauci, etc. I think many people, are confusing the medical profession with politically funded organizations that had their own messages, and yes, some had medial professionals working for them, but working for the good of their company, not the good of the American people.

I do believe if enough people followed the protocol, maybe 70-80%, we would have less cases of covid in this country then, during the peak and now. Politicians would not have jumped in with lockdowns and even mask mandates.
Is your doctor part of the President's council and going on TV and the media to give his/her expert opinion? Fauci and the like are the ones that arrogantly assumed that people would do what they (the "experts") told them to do and then compounded the error by not taking the time to explain why their recommendations were changing. There has plenty of arrogance on display by doctors and politicians throughout this pandemic.

I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, 70-80% of the people in the Portland area followed the protocol. We're doing well compared to most states but we've still had cases, deaths and spikes and that's with lockdowns. The protocols helped but they weren't a panacea.

Saving lives from Covid came with a cost of lives damaged by job loss, alcoholism, suicides, spousal & child abuse, etc. I'm not saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid was the wrong decision, I'm saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid without giving proper consideration to the consequences was short-sighted.
1). We never came close to going all in nationally.

2). Having doctors tell me what do with MY health is commie talk.

:coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:59 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:18 pm Is your doctor part of the President's council and going on TV and the media to give his/her expert opinion? Fauci and the like are the ones that arrogantly assumed that people would do what they (the "experts") told them to do and then compounded the error by not taking the time to explain why their recommendations were changing. There has plenty of arrogance on display by doctors and politicians throughout this pandemic.

I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, 70-80% of the people in the Portland area followed the protocol. We're doing well compared to most states but we've still had cases, deaths and spikes and that's with lockdowns. The protocols helped but they weren't a panacea.

Saving lives from Covid came with a cost of lives damaged by job loss, alcoholism, suicides, spousal & child abuse, etc. I'm not saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid was the wrong decision, I'm saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid without giving proper consideration to the consequences was short-sighted.
1). We never came close to going all in nationally.

2). Having doctors tell me what do with MY health is commie talk.

:coffee:
1) No we haven't. Are we seeing enough of a difference between the spread, spikes and deaths between those states/locations that were closer to going "all in" and those that were more laisse faire to justify going all in?

2) I will listen to my personal physician and don't think he's a commie (my OD in Illinois was a libertarian) but I think we gave too much of a voice to the medical doctors and didn't get the needed input from psychologists, sociologists, economists, and communication/marketing experts. And it amazes me that we're almost a year into this and I still don't think we're getting it.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:20 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:59 pm

1). We never came close to going all in nationally.

2). Having doctors tell me what do with MY health is commie talk.

:coffee:
1) No we haven't. Are we seeing enough of a difference between the spread, spikes and deaths between those states/locations that were closer to going "all in" and those that were more laisse faire to justify going all in?

2) I will listen to my personal physician and don't think he's a commie (my OD in Illinois was a libertarian) but I think we gave too much of a voice to the medical doctors and didn't get the needed input from psychologists, sociologists, economists, and communication/marketing experts. And it amazes me that we're almost a year into this and I still don't think we're getting it.
1. If you compare states that were in close proximity, like ND, SD, Iowa, MN and WI. WI and MN were close to going all-in, once the government was involved, and had much better results.

2. Didn't get the needed input from psychologists, sociologists, economists, and communication/marketing experts after the government was involved with lockdowns.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:35 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:20 pm

1) No we haven't. Are we seeing enough of a difference between the spread, spikes and deaths between those states/locations that were closer to going "all in" and those that were more laisse faire to justify going all in?

2) I will listen to my personal physician and don't think he's a commie (my OD in Illinois was a libertarian) but I think we gave too much of a voice to the medical doctors and didn't get the needed input from psychologists, sociologists, economists, and communication/marketing experts. And it amazes me that we're almost a year into this and I still don't think we're getting it.
1. If you compare states that were in close proximity, like ND, SD, Iowa, MN and WI. WI and MN were close to going all-in, once the government was involved, and had much better results.

2. Didn't get the needed input from psychologists, sociologists, economists, and communication/marketing experts after the government was involved with lockdowns.
People decided we didn't need their input. Trump and his supporters were against lockdowns and railed against them and that's all the anti-Trumpers needed to know so they were all full heartedly for any and all lockdowns. Getting into the weeds and figuring out the best way to get through all of this lost out to rank partisanship. We had three years of practicing that kind of reflexive position taking so it was just natural once the pandemic came along. :ohno:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:20 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:59 pm

1). We never came close to going all in nationally.

2). Having doctors tell me what do with MY health is commie talk.

:coffee:
1) No we haven't. Are we seeing enough of a difference between the spread, spikes and deaths between those states/locations that were closer to going "all in" and those that were more laisse faire to justify going all in?

2) I will listen to my personal physician and don't think he's a commie (my OD in Illinois was a libertarian) but I think we gave too much of a voice to the medical doctors and didn't get the needed input from psychologists, sociologists, economists, and communication/marketing experts. And it amazes me that we're almost a year into this and I still don't think we're getting it.
1) Depends on your perspective and at what point you're comparing I suppose. In her speech at CPAC, Noem bragged a couple of times about SD being ahead of the curve throughout the virus. Not true although there death rate is relatively low. Then look at Cuomo and cooking the numbers. I wouldn't put it past Desantis to do the same as an explanation for why Florida's numbers are middle of the road. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/p ... uly-1.html At one point in the past couple of weeks, Montana had more new cases than Washington State. As discussed before, tons of variables and variations in categorizing deaths, demographics, culture, etc. Not to mention super spreader events like Sturgis and spring break which took it to many other states.

2) I listen to my personal physician (don't know his politics but I think he's mormon), AND I listen to state and federal guidelines, AND I read from a variety of epidemiologists and data analysts. Being that awesome combination of post partisan, ruggedly individual, but still community minded guy that I am. :mrgreen:

But good point on needing input from experts in other fields. I don't know how much of earnest effort there was from the start when it was needed and I'd like to think there was involvement from the start, but results certainly leave some question marks.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:25 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:44 am

Two things:
A) Individualism and independence are two of the foundations upon which this country was built. But, whenever YOU use the words individualism or independence, you always put the word “rugged” in front of it, like it’s bad, like “toxic” masculinity. Is there any other kind of individualism or independence to you that isn’t toxic?

B) if you feel our fear of government is irrational after the last year, there’s no helping you. We didn’t “fear” the CDC, Fauci or vaccines before COVID. It was government’s RESPONSE (and CDC’s and Fauci’s, and WHO’s, etc) that made us fear them. If our government (and associated peripheral agencies) had closed ranks with a coordinated response, quickly, 95% of Americans would have fallen in line. But, between their continuous waffling and ignoring of hundreds of years of pandemic research (as pointed out by SG), combined with the tit-for-tat approach where “Orange Man Bad” colored literally EVERY decision coming out of a “red state” or a “blue state”, we were pretty much fucked from the beginning. THAT’S why people decided that “thanksgiving poker parties were more valuable than hundreds of thousands of lives”...the government proved VERY early in this “pandemic” that they were NOT interested in saving lives, only interested in control and power and making the other side look bad. When the government doesn’t appear to care, when the rules are applied so unevenly the government is blatantly, openly picking the pandemic winners and the pandemic losers, yea, “rugged Independence” is gonna fire the fuck up and people are gonna tell your benevolent government to kindly fuck off and try and survive...and LIVE.

It’s sad when someone hates independence and individualism so much, comrade.
I love me some rugged individualism. I use it as a pejorative here to trigger. How’s it working? :lol:

The nation was also founded and has been governed by GROUPs of men who worked together for a COLLECTIVE cause. :coffee: you know...all that ‘to secure these rights, governments are created by men/we shall hang together or surely hang separately/ one nation under god/...mumbo jumbo. :coffee: :coffee:

And yes, I understand the need for limitations on government enshrined in our founding ideals as well.

As for the politics...that’s, again, a matter of leadership. We can make excuses for why a team isn’t on the same page and playing together as a unit but most of the time it falls on leadership (coaching).
I think we actually agree to a large degree....the failure was in leadership, and not just Trump. But Pelosi, Schumer, et.al., who went against ANYTHING the Executive branch proposed and politicized literally every statement. Trump shut down travel from China? Pelosi goes to Chinatown in SF and parties. Trump says try Hydroxide-whatever, he’s an idiot, Fauci says its nothing to worry about and masks don’t work, then it’s the worst thing ever and wear THREE masks....our leadership (from Trump on down) failed us miserably, and it’s why I laugh at people who think the government will step in and “save” them...there was literally ZERO “collective” for the cause—every single thing was politicized and done solely to consolidate power. People aren’t stupid. When they see THAT happening, it’s “fuck off and leave me alone, I’ll go over here and survive without your “help””. Or, as you call it, “rugged” individualism. :|
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:32 pm
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:18 pm

Is your doctor part of the President's council and going on TV and the media to give his/her expert opinion? Fauci and the like are the ones that arrogantly assumed that people would do what they (the "experts") told them to do and then compounded the error by not taking the time to explain why their recommendations were changing. There has plenty of arrogance on display by doctors and politicians throughout this pandemic.

I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, 70-80% of the people in the Portland area followed the protocol. We're doing well compared to most states but we've still had cases, deaths and spikes and that's with lockdowns. The protocols helped but they weren't a panacea.

Saving lives from Covid came with a cost of lives damaged by job loss, alcoholism, suicides, spousal & child abuse, etc. I'm not saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid was the wrong decision, I'm saying that going all in on trying to fight Covid without giving proper consideration to the consequences was short-sighted.
I think we have a difference of opinion on Fauci. He's a political pawn as I mentioned before. We also have a difference of opinion on people following protocol. Following Protocol properly, would not have stopped covid, it would have slowed the spread enough to keep businesses open and minimizing all the other side-affects on your list.
Not in blue states. Blue state governors were hell-bent on shutting down completely, destroying the economy and making massive power grabs, to ensure Trump didn’t get reelected. THere wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of most blue states staying open.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:38 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:32 pm

I think we have a difference of opinion on Fauci. He's a political pawn as I mentioned before. We also have a difference of opinion on people following protocol. Following Protocol properly, would not have stopped covid, it would have slowed the spread enough to keep businesses open and minimizing all the other side-affects on your list.
Not in blue states. Blue state governors were hell-bent on shutting down completely, destroying the economy and making massive power grabs, to ensure Trump didn’t get reelected. THere wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of most blue states staying open.
Trump said nothing about that. He could has said, people, please follow the protocol, and they would have listened. He basically bailed and went the herd immunity route.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:51 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:38 pm

Not in blue states. Blue state governors were hell-bent on shutting down completely, destroying the economy and making massive power grabs, to ensure Trump didn’t get reelected. THere wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of most blue states staying open.
Trump said nothing about that. He could has said, people, please follow the protocol, and they would have listened. He basically bailed and went the herd immunity route.
I’m not arguing whether Trump’s comments could have changed people’s view on the protocols....but blue states were going to shut down regardless.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:35 pm
kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:25 am

I love me some rugged individualism. I use it as a pejorative here to trigger. How’s it working? :lol:

The nation was also founded and has been governed by GROUPs of men who worked together for a COLLECTIVE cause. :coffee: you know...all that ‘to secure these rights, governments are created by men/we shall hang together or surely hang separately/ one nation under god/...mumbo jumbo. :coffee: :coffee:

And yes, I understand the need for limitations on government enshrined in our founding ideals as well.

As for the politics...that’s, again, a matter of leadership. We can make excuses for why a team isn’t on the same page and playing together as a unit but most of the time it falls on leadership (coaching).
I think we actually agree to a large degree....the failure was in leadership, and not just Trump. But Pelosi, Schumer, et.al., who went against ANYTHING the Executive branch proposed and politicized literally every statement. Trump shut down travel from China? Pelosi goes to Chinatown in SF and parties. Trump says try Hydroxide-whatever, he’s an idiot, Fauci says its nothing to worry about and masks don’t work, then it’s the worst thing ever and wear THREE masks....our leadership (from Trump on down) failed us miserably, and it’s why I laugh at people who think the government will step in and “save” them...there was literally ZERO “collective” for the cause—every single thing was politicized and done solely to consolidate power. People aren’t stupid. When they see THAT happening, it’s “fuck off and leave me alone, I’ll go over here and survive without your “help””. Or, as you call it, “rugged” individualism. :|
Wait! You and I agree?

Shit!

I need to review and probably change my stance then.

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:36 am
UNI88 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:40 am

Politics played a part in people not following protocol but so did psychology and communications/marketing. The doctors arrogantly thought they could tell people what to do and people would just do it. They should have considered how to frame and communicate the message as well how to explain the changes in the recommendations.

Protocols were first put in place in March and adjusted but are still in place in varying formats. Do you really think that if people had followed the protocols this would have been under control in a matter of weeks? Because that is the only way we would have avoided the psychological and economic impacts. And a good psychologist/sociologist could have told the doctors that some people weren't going to follow the protocols and the doctors could have planned and communicated accordingly. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't going to bow before them and do exactly what they say. To expect people to do so is arrogant and demonstrates a lack of understanding of human nature.
Precisely my point in your first sentence. I must have missed the arrogant Doctors, my Doctor is pretty laid back, normal guy, easy to talk to about anything. The arrogant messages came from politically funded groups like the CDC, Who, Fauci, etc. I think many people, are confusing the medical profession with politically funded organizations that had their own messages, and yes, some had medial professionals working for them, but working for the good of their company, not the good of the American people.

I do believe if enough people followed the protocol, maybe 70-80%, we would have less cases of covid in this country then, during the peak and now. Politicians would not have jumped in with lockdowns and even mask mandates.
We had over 90% wearing masks..
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020102 ... ll-finds#1
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:38 am
GannonFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:08 am

I actually disagree with this, and I'm not sure where you're even getting this. You're saying that this was able to be stopped in terms of spreading if people followed medical advice. But we weren't told to wear masks until late March/early April. This thing was spreading even here in the US back in January if not even a littler earlier. There was no medical advice saying things had to be different before March - international travel was still going on and everything was open. Even Fauci was saying that COVID wasn't something the US had to worry about. The only places in the world that were able to avoid COVID spread were Taiwan and New Zealand, and both were isolated islands that are easily able to close their doors to the outside world.

As for the current situation, I agree, even in PA, at this time, most everything, other than pro sports and schools, are basically open, with restrictions of course. If everyone is vaccinated by June as it seems to be, it will be a mostly normal summer and an even more normal fall.
I saw my first mask around March 10, coming back from vacation. I still believe, starting late March, early April, if people followed the protocol, we would have been pretty much back to normal by now.
FLASHBACK MARCH 2020: Fauci Says "There's No Reason To Be Walking Around With A Mask"
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _mask.html#!
People were still being told by the CDC and Fauci in March no masks. This was after Fauci said in Jan and Feb 'No Masks'. After the CDC spent 2+ months of saying "no masks" they turn around in early April and say wear masks. You can't spend 2+ months of saying 1 thing, then turn around and say the complete opposite, and expect people to take you seriously.
Last edited by BDKJMU on Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

BDKJMU wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:20 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:36 am

Precisely my point in your first sentence. I must have missed the arrogant Doctors, my Doctor is pretty laid back, normal guy, easy to talk to about anything. The arrogant messages came from politically funded groups like the CDC, Who, Fauci, etc. I think many people, are confusing the medical profession with politically funded organizations that had their own messages, and yes, some had medial professionals working for them, but working for the good of their company, not the good of the American people.

I do believe if enough people followed the protocol, maybe 70-80%, we would have less cases of covid in this country then, during the peak and now. Politicians would not have jumped in with lockdowns and even mask mandates.
We had over 90% wearing masks..
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020102 ... ll-finds#1
I see a lot of people attempting to wear mask, maybe 30% have a decent one. Besides that, mask don't work alone, you need distancing and washing.
Last edited by Gil Dobie on Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:35 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:20 pm
We had over 90% wearing masks..
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020102 ... ll-finds#1
I see a lot of people attempting to wear mask, maybe 30% have a decent one. Besides that, mask don't work along, you need distancing and washing.
Anything short of an N95 (or maybe KN95) properly worn, sealed, don't touch your face, don't pull it down even for a few seconds to eat or drink, change it out every hour, is pretty much pissing in the wind.

Hold your mask under water. If water gets through, so can the virus.
In below freezing air outside, if you can see your breath, the virus can get through.
Go into your local Supermarket to the Seafood section. If you can smell the seafood through your mask, the virus can get through.
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..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

BDKJMU wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:28 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:38 am

I saw my first mask around March 10, coming back from vacation. I still believe, starting late March, early April, if people followed the protocol, we would have been pretty much back to normal by now.
FLASHBACK MARCH 2020: Fauci Says "There's No Reason To Be Walking Around With A Mask"
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _mask.html#!
People were still being told by the CDC and Fauci in March no masks. This was after Fauci said in Jan and Feb 'No Masks'. After the CDC spent 2+ months of saying "no masks" they turn around and say wear masks. You can't spend 2+ months of saying 1 thing, then turn around and say the complete opposite, and expect people to take you seriously.
Covid didn't hit here until mid March. As I've been saying, the CDC and Fauci are experts paid by political entities, and speak for that entity, not the best interest of the people. April 7, Mayo clinic was advising all staff to wear masks, April 14th, required all patients and visitors. There were 30 covid deaths in Minnesota on or before April 6.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

April 3, 2020 - CDC recommends people wear cloth masks in public – but Trump says he won't
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:44 pm
BDKJMU wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:28 pm

People were still being told by the CDC and Fauci in March no masks. This was after Fauci said in Jan and Feb 'No Masks'. After the CDC spent 2+ months of saying "no masks" they turn around and say wear masks. You can't spend 2+ months of saying 1 thing, then turn around and say the complete opposite, and expect people to take you seriously.
Covid didn't hit here until mid March. As I've been saying, the CDC and Fauci are experts paid by political entities, and speak for that entity, not the best interest of the people. April 7, Mayo clinic was advising all staff to wear masks, April 14th, required all patients and visitors. There were 30 covid deaths in Minnesota on or before April 6.
Covid was here long before mid-March. :nod: :nod:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:03 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:35 pm

I think we actually agree to a large degree....the failure was in leadership, and not just Trump. But Pelosi, Schumer, et.al., who went against ANYTHING the Executive branch proposed and politicized literally every statement. Trump shut down travel from China? Pelosi goes to Chinatown in SF and parties. Trump says try Hydroxide-whatever, he’s an idiot, Fauci says its nothing to worry about and masks don’t work, then it’s the worst thing ever and wear THREE masks....our leadership (from Trump on down) failed us miserably, and it’s why I laugh at people who think the government will step in and “save” them...there was literally ZERO “collective” for the cause—every single thing was politicized and done solely to consolidate power. People aren’t stupid. When they see THAT happening, it’s “fuck off and leave me alone, I’ll go over here and survive without your “help””. Or, as you call it, “rugged” individualism. :|
Wait! You and I agree?

Shit!

I need to review and probably change my stance then.

:chair:
Yep. Gettin’ sloppy, comrade. :tothehand: :tothehand:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by BDKJMU »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:48 pm April 3, 2020 - CDC recommends people wear cloth masks in public – but Trump says he won't
Pretty much worthless.
..peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard..
..But you have to go home now. We have to have peace…
..I know how you feel, but go home, and go home in peace.
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