Coronavirus COVID-19

[SDHornet]

@ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms.

@ anyone who doesn't get that.

I've been asking for years for someone to tell me a right that I had on 9/10/2001 that I no longer have.

A right...not a privilege or convenience.


Or are we all talking about our freedom of privacy? That I can agree that we have lost some privacy.

Yes. Perfect example is how the gubmint uses the FISA court to go after anyone they need to.

[SeattleGriz]

I've been asking for years for someone to tell me a right that I had on 9/10/2001 that I no longer have.

A right...not a privilege or convenience.


Or are we all talking about our freedom of privacy? That I can agree that we have lost some privacy.

Yes. Perfect example is how the gubmint uses the FISA court to go after anyone they need to.

Yep. We all lost our 4th amendment rights when the government feels like it due to 9/11.

[UNI88]

Playing devil's advocate ... right to assemble.

Ok - good point. There was a brief suspension of large gatherings in order to protect the public health. Unless i'm mistaken, there was plenty of assembly last year in Portland, DC, and many other cities. You surely can peacefully assemble now. I'm going to a town festival this evening.

This Sunday, are you able to attend church in Washington or Oregon?

I don't attend church so I don't know. I do know that I can't eat indoors at a restaurant. Kate "Shutdown" Brown reinstituted restrictions starting today.

Asking which rights have been lost is disingenuous. The issue is so much a specific right that was lost but the gradual degradation of our rights and freedoms whether from Covid restrictions, the Patriot Act or other examples of a growing government.

[kalm]

@ all these people claiming no freedoms were lost/impacted that also lived through the post-9/11 civil liberties grab by the gubmint. This is the same thing with just a different excuse for gubmint to impinge on our rights and freedoms.

@ anyone who doesn't get that.

I've been asking for years for someone to tell me a right that I had on 9/10/2001 that I no longer have.

A right...not a privilege or convenience.


Or are we all talking about our freedom of privacy? That I can agree that we have lost some privacy.

4th amendment..

[kalm]

The government should have floated small businesses more.

Large indoor gatherings are still risky.

Prohibiting the free exercise of religion is an infringement on our rights.

Rights aren’t unlimited.

[UNI88]

Prohibiting the free exercise of religion is an infringement on our rights.

Rights aren’t unlimited.

Huh?

If we can prohibit the free exercise of religion (1st amendment) then we can also:

• Give law enforcement the limited ability to search our physical and electronic property without a warrant (4th)
• Convict the Columbus police officer that shot Ma'Khia Bryant without a trial (5th, 6th, and 7th) (MMW will be happy with this one)
• Flog criminals on a "limited" basis (8th)
• Reinstate limited slavery (13th)
• Limit the voting ability of African American men (15th)
• Limit the voting ability of women (19th)

Prioritizing rights and trying to set an acceptable level of infringement on the "less important" ones is a fools game that leads to a dark place for all.

[kalm]

Rights aren’t unlimited.

Huh?

If we can prohibit the free exercise of religion (1st amendment) then we can also:

• Give law enforcement the limited ability to search our physical and electronic property without a warrant (4th)
• Convict the Columbus police officer that shot Ma'Khia Bryant without a trial (5th, 6th, and 7th) (MMW will be happy with this one)
• Flog criminals on a "limited" basis (8th)
• Reinstate limited slavery (13th)
• Limit the voting ability of African American men (15th)
• Limit the voting ability of women (19th)

Prioritizing rights and trying to set an acceptable level of infringement on the "less important" ones is a fools game that leads to a dark place for all.

Regardless....rights are still limited and/or suspended for various reasons from time to time. Or should we allow human sacrifice as well?

[AZGrizFan]

I'm up no one's ass.

You've lost freedom.

You're like that frog in a pot of cool water as the government slowly turns up the heat.

So you have nothing. Figured. What freedoms have you lost?

please. The list is long and illustrious, and as 88 so aptly pointed out, the power grab been going on since 9/11.

[AZGrizFan]

Huh?

If we can prohibit the free exercise of religion (1st amendment) then we can also:

• Give law enforcement the limited ability to search our physical and electronic property without a warrant (4th)
• Convict the Columbus police officer that shot Ma'Khia Bryant without a trial (5th, 6th, and 7th) (MMW will be happy with this one)
• Flog criminals on a "limited" basis (8th)
• Reinstate limited slavery (13th)
• Limit the voting ability of African American men (15th)
• Limit the voting ability of women (19th)

Prioritizing rights and trying to set an acceptable level of infringement on the "less important" ones is a fools game that leads to a dark place for all.

Regardless....rights are still limited and/or suspended for various reasons from time to time. Or should we allow human sacrifice as well?

Translation: All great examples, 88. I have nothing, so I'll go straight to "human sacrifice!"

[Ibanez]

So you have nothing. Figured. What freedoms have you lost?

please. The list is long and illustrious, and as 88 so aptly pointed out, the power grab been going on since 9/11.

By the Republicans and Democrats, right?

[UNI88]

Huh?

If we can prohibit the free exercise of religion (1st amendment) then we can also:

• Give law enforcement the limited ability to search our physical and electronic property without a warrant (4th)
• Convict the Columbus police officer that shot Ma'Khia Bryant without a trial (5th, 6th, and 7th) (MMW will be happy with this one)
• Flog criminals on a "limited" basis (8th)
• Reinstate limited slavery (13th)
• Limit the voting ability of African American men (15th)
• Limit the voting ability of women (19th)

Prioritizing rights and trying to set an acceptable level of infringement on the "less important" ones is a fools game that leads to a dark place for all.

Regardless....rights are still limited and/or suspended for various reasons from time to time. Or should we allow human sacrifice as well?

During Covid rights have been limited/suspended arbitrarily, based on ideology or political influence. Protests were ok, going to church wasn't (and don't give me a BS argument about outdoors vs indoors, they didn't really understand how much greater the risk of indoor spread was at that time). Going to WalMart or Home Depot was ok going to your corner store wasn't.

The fear that our rights are gradually being infringed upon and eroded is valid. The Patriot Act was a step. The Covid restrictions are another.

[AZGrizFan]

please. The list is long and illustrious, and as 88 so aptly pointed out, the power grab been going on since 9/11.

By the Republicans and Democrats, right?

Yes. I've never specified a party. Your rights are deteriorating as we speak. Period.

Every law passed that references gun control is a right guaranteed in the constitution being eroded.
Every law passed that references "hate speech" is a right guaranteed in the constitution being eroded.

That's just two quick examples.

[AZGrizFan]

Regardless....rights are still limited and/or suspended for various reasons from time to time. Or should we allow human sacrifice as well?

During Covid rights have been limited/suspended arbitrarily, based on ideology or political influence. Protests were ok, going to church wasn't (and don't give me a BS argument about outdoors vs indoors, they didn't really understand how much greater the risk of spread indoors was at that time). Going to WalMart or Home Depot was ok going to your corner store wasn't.

The fear that our rights are gradually being infringed upon and eroded is valid. The Patriot Act was a step. The Covid restrictions are another.

It was over as soon as we started referring to it as "the homeland".

[UNI88]

During Covid rights have been limited/suspended arbitrarily, based on ideology or political influence. Protests were ok, going to church wasn't (and don't give me a BS argument about outdoors vs indoors, they didn't really understand how much greater the risk of spread indoors was at that time). Going to WalMart or Home Depot was ok going to your corner store wasn't.

The fear that our rights are gradually being infringed upon and eroded is valid. The Patriot Act was a step. The Covid restrictions are another.

It was over as soon as we started referring to it as "the homeland".

It's interesting watching the alt-righters cheer on militarized DHS agents cracking down on protesters/rioters/looters in Portland and whine about Covid restrictions while ctrl-lefters are doing the opposite, neither side realizing that both are symptoms of the same disease infecting our government.

[kalm]

Regardless....rights are still limited and/or suspended for various reasons from time to time. Or should we allow human sacrifice as well?

During Covid rights have been limited/suspended arbitrarily, based on ideology or political influence. Protests were ok, going to church wasn't (and don't give me a BS argument about outdoors vs indoors, they didn't really understand how much greater the risk of indoor spread was at that time). Going to WalMart or Home Depot was ok going to your corner store wasn't.

The fear that our rights are gradually being infringed upon and eroded is valid. The Patriot Act was a step. The Covid restrictions are another.

Some restrictions HAVE been arbitrary. I also never supported BLM protests (understood why but disagreed with the timing).

Some of it may have been based on politics but that’s hardly a slam dunk. We made mistakes, learned, adjusted and compromised between freedom and public safety. We do this all the time but haven’t had to for this level of threat very often.

It’s still ironic that so many who’ve cried freedom (not singling out you here) demonstrated time and again they were incapable of doing the right thing on their own...delaying a quicker path back to normal. That quicker path was suggested time and again even going as far back as last April but was ignored.

[Ibanez]

By the Republicans and Democrats, right?

Yes. I've never specified a party. Your rights are deteriorating as we speak. Period.

Every law passed that references gun control is a right guaranteed in the constitution being eroded.
Every law passed that references "hate speech" is a right guaranteed in the constitution being eroded.

That's just two quick examples.

I can still go a buy and gun and tell you that I think Texas is full of dickless fucks with big hats.


But I get what you're saying. So why do you stand for it? I assume you haven't voted for any career politician - especially any that was around in 2001.

[SeattleGriz]

During Covid rights have been limited/suspended arbitrarily, based on ideology or political influence. Protests were ok, going to church wasn't (and don't give me a BS argument about outdoors vs indoors, they didn't really understand how much greater the risk of indoor spread was at that time). Going to WalMart or Home Depot was ok going to your corner store wasn't.

The fear that our rights are gradually being infringed upon and eroded is valid. The Patriot Act was a step. The Covid restrictions are another.

Some restrictions HAVE been arbitrary. I also never supported BLM protests (understood why but disagreed with the timing).

Some of it may have been based on politics but that’s hardly a slam dunk. We made mistakes, learned, adjusted and compromised between freedom and public safety. We do this all the time but haven’t had to for this level of threat very often.

It’s still ironic that so many who’ve cried freedom (not singling out you here) demonstrated time and again they were incapable of doing the right thing on their own...delaying a quicker path back to normal. That quicker path was suggested time and again even going as far back as last April but was ignored.

What quicker path was that, and please list out the scientific backing for that quicker path.

[UNI88]

During Covid rights have been limited/suspended arbitrarily, based on ideology or political influence. Protests were ok, going to church wasn't (and don't give me a BS argument about outdoors vs indoors, they didn't really understand how much greater the risk of indoor spread was at that time). Going to WalMart or Home Depot was ok going to your corner store wasn't.

The fear that our rights are gradually being infringed upon and eroded is valid. The Patriot Act was a step. The Covid restrictions are another.

Some restrictions HAVE been arbitrary. I also never supported BLM protests (understood why but disagreed with the timing).

Some of it may have been based on politics but that’s hardly a slam dunk. We made mistakes, learned, adjusted and compromised between freedom and public safety. We do this all the time but haven’t had to for this level of threat very often.

It’s still ironic that so many who’ve cried freedom (not singling out you here) demonstrated time and again they were incapable of doing the right thing on their own...delaying a quicker path back to normal. That quicker path was suggested time and again even going as far back as last April but was ignored.

Are you sure about that?

If many of the "experts" were right, shouldn't there be a much starker difference in case counts and deaths between states with heavy restrictions vs those without? If the naysayers are right and it's little more than the flu, than why are cases in India blowing up? There appears to still be so much about this that we don't know that I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they have definitive answers. I have no problem with being cautious but the lessons of Florida, Texas, etc. would appear to say that restrictions do not need to be draconian. I don't think anyone knows which path would have been quicker.

[AZGrizFan]

Yes. I've never specified a party. Your rights are deteriorating as we speak. Period.

Every law passed that references gun control is a right guaranteed in the constitution being eroded.
Every law passed that references "hate speech" is a right guaranteed in the constitution being eroded.

That's just two quick examples.

I can still go a buy and gun and tell you that I think Texas is full of dickless fucks with big hats.


But I get what you're saying. So why do you stand for it? I assume you haven't voted for any career politician - especially any that was around in 2001.

Oh, you can go buy a gun. But you have to give them your life story, in many places the type, style or magazine capacities are limited, etc., etc...Do the words "shall not be infringed" mean anything?

Just don't call them all the new "verboten" words (like Oriental).

And not many, that's for certain. As I've made clear on this board, i RARELY vote for either of the established candidates for President. Held my nose and voted for Ted Boobs last time because there was no WAY I wanted that girly fuck Beta in the senate.

[SeattleGriz]

Some restrictions HAVE been arbitrary. I also never supported BLM protests (understood why but disagreed with the timing).

Some of it may have been based on politics but that’s hardly a slam dunk. We made mistakes, learned, adjusted and compromised between freedom and public safety. We do this all the time but haven’t had to for this level of threat very often.

It’s still ironic that so many who’ve cried freedom (not singling out you here) demonstrated time and again they were incapable of doing the right thing on their own...delaying a quicker path back to normal. That quicker path was suggested time and again even going as far back as last April but was ignored.

Are you sure about that?

If many of the "experts" were right, shouldn't there be a much starker difference in case counts and deaths between states with heavy restrictions vs those without? If the naysayers are right and it's little more than the flu, than why are cases in India blowing up? There appears to still be so much about this that we don't know that I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they have definitive answers. I have no problem with being cautious but the lessons of Florida, Texas, etc. would appear to say that restrictions do not need to be draconian. I don't think anyone knows which path would have been quicker.

India's main problem is terrible living conditions.

[UNI88]

Are you sure about that?

If many of the "experts" were right, shouldn't there be a much starker difference in case counts and deaths between states with heavy restrictions vs those without? If the naysayers are right and it's little more than the flu, than why are cases in India blowing up? There appears to still be so much about this that we don't know that I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they have definitive answers. I have no problem with being cautious but the lessons of Florida, Texas, etc. would appear to say that restrictions do not need to be draconian. I don't think anyone knows which path would have been quicker.

India's main problem is terrible living conditions.

True but does the flu blow up like Covid has?

Covid is more dangerous than the flu but less dangerous than the scolds would have us believe.

[SeattleGriz]

India's main problem is terrible living conditions.

True but does the flu blow up like Covid has?

Covid is more dangerous than the flu but less dangerous than the scolds would have us believe.

62 million infected by H1N1, but if you dig a little, you find out that was calculated and not actual positive results + symptoms.

In regards to COVID, while there was some base level of immunity, it still was considered novel. While I don't carry any comorbidities and I'm not in the danger zone for age, I can certainly see that if given a chance, COVID WILL find you.

Its been difficult to find good articles on India. I've been trying to see if they have had an extended cold and flu season coupled with the relaxing of restrictions. I'm not comfortable with what I've read yet to make a guess.

I have seen some unreal tweets of the living conditions and would expect COVID to be making hay right now.

[kalm]

Some restrictions HAVE been arbitrary. I also never supported BLM protests (understood why but disagreed with the timing).

Some of it may have been based on politics but that’s hardly a slam dunk. We made mistakes, learned, adjusted and compromised between freedom and public safety. We do this all the time but haven’t had to for this level of threat very often.

It’s still ironic that so many who’ve cried freedom (not singling out you here) demonstrated time and again they were incapable of doing the right thing on their own...delaying a quicker path back to normal. That quicker path was suggested time and again even going as far back as last April but was ignored.

Are you sure about that?

If many of the "experts" were right, shouldn't there be a much starker difference in case counts and deaths between states with heavy restrictions vs those without? If the naysayers are right and it's little more than the flu, than why are cases in India blowing up? There appears to still be so much about this that we don't know that I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they have definitive answers. I have no problem with being cautious but the lessons of Florida, Texas, etc. would appear to say that restrictions do not need to be draconian. I don't think anyone knows which path would have been quicker.

You and I agree completely in regarding still much to learn. Texas and Florida are intriguing, no doubt and I am prepared to change my mind on whether restrictions were overly draconian. It will take a deeper dive to theorize the factors and I’m not convinced we can close the case yet. I’ll poke around a little this weekend.

We went into this with a wide range of possibilities and are getting smarter about it as we move along. But even just preliminary warnings regarding the potential deaths, compromised hospital systems, and long term effects came to fruition. Some of that was based on what we experienced in 1918. 560,000 is a big number. The fact our economy has not suffered more is also interesting.

I also wonder about the amount of avoidable suffering due to other healthcare that was deferred during the surges in places like Houston, El Paso, Mississippi, and now in India.

[UNI88]

True but does the flu blow up like Covid has?

Covid is more dangerous than the flu but less dangerous than the scolds would have us believe.

62 million infected by H1N1, but if you dig a little, you find out that was calculated and not actual positive results + symptoms.

In regards to COVID, while there was some base level of immunity, it still was considered novel. While I don't carry any comorbidities and I'm not in the danger zone for age, I can certainly see that if given a chance, COVID WILL find you.

Its been difficult to find good articles on India. I've been trying to see if they have had an extended cold and flu season coupled with the relaxing of restrictions. I'm not comfortable with what I've read yet to make a guess.

I have seen some unreal tweets of the living conditions and would expect COVID to be making hay right now.

I don't have the answers but I like to ask questions. Why didn't COVID make hay in India before now? What changed? I think this is worse than the flu and caution is still appropriate but it doesn't appear that draconian measures are necessary.

[SeattleGriz]

62 million infected by H1N1, but if you dig a little, you find out that was calculated and not actual positive results + symptoms.

In regards to COVID, while there was some base level of immunity, it still was considered novel. While I don't carry any comorbidities and I'm not in the danger zone for age, I can certainly see that if given a chance, COVID WILL find you.

Its been difficult to find good articles on India. I've been trying to see if they have had an extended cold and flu season coupled with the relaxing of restrictions. I'm not comfortable with what I've read yet to make a guess.

I have seen some unreal tweets of the living conditions and would expect COVID to be making hay right now.

I don't have the answers but I like to ask questions. Why didn't COVID make hay in India before now? What changed? I think this is worse than the flu and caution is still appropriate but it doesn't appear that draconian measures are necessary.

From what I'm reading, they were under pretty tight lockdown and recently relaxed restrictions. Apparently when they locked down, they didn't have a plan for "essential" business to stay open and everyone ran out of food and supplies.

So after you lockdown without a plan to ensure everyone gets their needed supplies, they opened back up and made a bad situation worse. The living conditions are a breeding ground for illness.

As previously stated, this is just my initial look, so I could be off on this.