Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:07 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:03 pm

You have minimized it down to “he got the mask thing wrong in the beginning”. That is the grossest oversimplification of the steady stream of BS that’s come from him and his office that I’ve ever seen.
Then it should be super easy to produce something else. I’m sure he’s made other mistakes but the scorn for him is mostly political and/or a dislike of outcomes.

But like I said...go for it.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... s-pandemic

Dr. Anthony Fauci has flip-flopped or been proven wrong on a host of different coronavirus measures and recommendations since the virus first hit the United States last winter.

Fauci, the leading White House coronavirus task force member, has changed positions or faced scientific data proving his stances are flawed on issues ranging from mask wearing to the severity of the virus and from asymptomatic spread to effective treatments for patients, among other issues, since January.

The flashpoint for Fauci's missteps has been his feud with Sen. Rand Paul, who said that Fauci owes an apology to "every single parent and school-age child in America" for resisting calls for students to go back to school and then reversing that position on Sunday.

“Close the bars and keep the schools open,” Fauci said during an appearance on ABC’s This Week, adding that there is “obviously” not a “one size fits all” approach to schooling.

His comments come after months of President Trump and lawmakers demanding that schools must open and warning that the effects from lockdowns could be devastating. Studies from the U.S. and abroad have already shown that keeping children from schools has had serious consequences, with suicides among youths rising in Wisconsin, children forgetting basic life skills in the United Kingdom, and an overall increase of mental health-related emergency department visits for youths across the U.S.

This was not the only time Paul faced Fauci in a Senate hearing face-off about the particulars of the coronavirus. Paul repeatedly questioned Fauci in September on how preexisting crossreactive immunity could potentially stop the spread of COVID-19, citing data from Asia. Fauci told Paul that there was no evidence making that case.

In November, however, Paul took a victory lap when the New York Times published research backing up his claims and showed that some adults, and even more children, carried an antibody that can prevent coronavirus infection, including COVID-19.

But these are just the most recent examples of Fauci backtracking or being proven wrong.

On March 8, he described lockdown measures in China as “draconian” and stated that such restrictions wouldn’t be “feasible” in the U.S., more than a month after the World Health Organization had declared a global health emergency on Jan. 30.

Days later on March 15, he changed positions and said he was open to a national 14-day shutdown to help stop the spread. In April, when pressed in a CNN interview on why social distancing and lockdowns weren't implemented sooner, he sparked confusion when he said more lives “obviously” could have been saved if there hadn't been "pushback" to lockdowns at the start of the pandemic. The very next day, he backtracked, saying that he used “the wrong choice of words."

In September, Fauci testified that he did not "regret" saying that the only way to stop the "explosion of infection" was by "shutting down."

Perhaps Fauci's most notable flip-flop has been on the efficacy of masks, saying in March that there was "no reason" to wear a mask. By April, he joined the chorus of doctors and health agencies encouraging the use of face masks.

Fauci also previously downplayed the virus itself, something Trump was harshly criticized for, saying in February that the public should not be “frightened." By March, he was singing a different tune, warning people that they needed to do their part to stop the spread and take the virus seriously.

He also downplayed asymptomatic transmission on Jan. 28, saying what "people need to realize" is that in "all the history" of respiratory-borne viruses, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. By August, Fauci did a complete 180, saying asymptomatic cases were a driving factor in the community spread of COVID-19 despite a WHO admission that more evidence was needed to make this determination. In late August, researchers from Southern Medical University in Guangzhou concluded that "asymptomatic cases were least likely to infect their close contacts."

Fauci’s recommendations for treating COVID-19 have also been challenged by recent scientific data.

Fauci advocated the use of remdesivir in April, citing one trial prior to it being peer-reviewed, lauding it as a breakthrough “in diminishing time to recovery” for patients with COVID-19 and predicting it "will be the standard of care."

In November, however, the WHO warned against using remdesivir, saying that “there is currently no evidence that remdesivir improves survival and other outcomes in these patients.” The news came after Trump took the medication when he was diagnosed with COVID-19 in October and after the Food and Drug Administration approved it for the treatment of COVID-19.

Over the summer, Fauci dismissed hydroxychloroquine as a treatment after Trump touted the drug, saying research showed that it was not “effective." Trump was subsequently met with condemnation from the press and others. In November, however, a peer-reviewed study, which will be published in the International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, found that there were 84% fewer hospitalizations with patients who were given a drug cocktail containing hydroxychloroquine.

Fauci warned in a May hearing while the school closure debate was ongoing that Kawasaki disease, which causes inflammation in blood vessels in children, could be related to COVID-19. However, diagnoses of Kawasaki disease did not increase in 2020 compared to data from 2018 and 2019, according to research released in November.

Paul again directed his ire toward Fauci's COVID-19 advice last month, accusing him of glossing “over the science.”

"He believes that submission and lockdowns are fine," the senator said. "He's not too worried about individual liberties, but he also tends to gloss over the science, because we've had this debate back and forth about immunity.”
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:59 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:55 pm

Most of the deaths in Cali are LA, and most of the deaths in NY are NYC, which is fair.
You know those exact numbers?
Here's the site I use:

https://public.tableau.com/views/COVID- ... VizHome=no

LA County is running away with it at 19k deaths. Orange, San Bernadino, San Diego, and Riverside Counties are all a distant 2nd with around 3k deaths each. All of those counties are in SoCal.

San Francisco, 2nd most dense city in the US has 366 deaths. I've yet to get an explanation as to why SF has had so few deaths as they have a serious homeless problem.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

SDHornet wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:11 pm
kalm wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:05 pm

Read the hill article that is linked to the post. The editorializing of tweets can be verified in about 1 minute.

You guys are better than this... :ohno:

Also..Ted Cruz.
The problem with Fauci's "schools need more resources to reopen" stance is that there are already states that have reopened schools in some capacity. So he, and anyone thinking schools need more resources to reopen, are wrong.

It's really that simple.
That’s a fair critique. But IIRC he didnt say it was mandatory as implied in the tweet.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

kalm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:21 pm
SDHornet wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:11 pm

The problem with Fauci's "schools need more resources to reopen" stance is that there are already states that have reopened schools in some capacity. So he, and anyone thinking schools need more resources to reopen, are wrong.

It's really that simple.
That’s a fair critique. But IIRC he didnt say it was mandatory as implied in the tweet.
Why would it matter, shouldn't science dictate that schools can open...because, you know...some schools are already open.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

SDHornet wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:15 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:59 pm

You know those exact numbers?
Here's the site I use:

https://public.tableau.com/views/COVID- ... VizHome=no

LA County is running away with it at 19k deaths. Orange, San Bernadino, San Diego, and Riverside Counties are all a distant 2nd with around 3k deaths each. All of those counties are in SoCal.

San Francisco, 2nd most dense city in the US has 366 deaths. I've yet to get an explanation as to why SF has had so few deaths as they have a serious homeless problem.
LA County - 10.4 million population, 19,000 deaths
NYC 5 Boroughs - 8.09 million population, 19,500 deaths

NYC for the win.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Klammy deftly ignoring my post on Fauci’s fuckups....
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:13 pm
kalm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:07 pm

Then it should be super easy to produce something else. I’m sure he’s made other mistakes but the scorn for him is mostly political and/or a dislike of outcomes.

But like I said...go for it.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... s-pandemic

Dr. Anthony Fauci has flip-flopped or been proven wrong on a host of different coronavirus measures and recommendations since the virus first hit the United States last winter.

Fauci, the leading White House coronavirus task force member, has changed positions or faced scientific data proving his stances are flawed on issues ranging from mask wearing to the severity of the virus and from asymptomatic spread to effective treatments for patients, among other issues, since January.

The flashpoint for Fauci's missteps has been his feud with Sen. Rand Paul, who said that Fauci owes an apology to "every single parent and school-age child in America" for resisting calls for students to go back to school and then reversing that position on Sunday.

“Close the bars and keep the schools open,” Fauci said during an appearance on ABC’s This Week, adding that there is “obviously” not a “one size fits all” approach to schooling.

His comments come after months of President Trump and lawmakers demanding that schools must open and warning that the effects from lockdowns could be devastating. Studies from the U.S. and abroad have already shown that keeping children from schools has had serious consequences, with suicides among youths rising in Wisconsin, children forgetting basic life skills in the United Kingdom, and an overall increase of mental health-related emergency department visits for youths across the U.S.

This was not the only time Paul faced Fauci in a Senate hearing face-off about the particulars of the coronavirus. Paul repeatedly questioned Fauci in September on how preexisting crossreactive immunity could potentially stop the spread of COVID-19, citing data from Asia. Fauci told Paul that there was no evidence making that case.

In November, however, Paul took a victory lap when the New York Times published research backing up his claims and showed that some adults, and even more children, carried an antibody that can prevent coronavirus infection, including COVID-19.

But these are just the most recent examples of Fauci backtracking or being proven wrong.

On March 8, he described lockdown measures in China as “draconian” and stated that such restrictions wouldn’t be “feasible” in the U.S., more than a month after the World Health Organization had declared a global health emergency on Jan. 30.

Days later on March 15, he changed positions and said he was open to a national 14-day shutdown to help stop the spread. In April, when pressed in a CNN interview on why social distancing and lockdowns weren't implemented sooner, he sparked confusion when he said more lives “obviously” could have been saved if there hadn't been "pushback" to lockdowns at the start of the pandemic. The very next day, he backtracked, saying that he used “the wrong choice of words."

In September, Fauci testified that he did not "regret" saying that the only way to stop the "explosion of infection" was by "shutting down."

Perhaps Fauci's most notable flip-flop has been on the efficacy of masks, saying in March that there was "no reason" to wear a mask. By April, he joined the chorus of doctors and health agencies encouraging the use of face masks.

Fauci also previously downplayed the virus itself, something Trump was harshly criticized for, saying in February that the public should not be “frightened." By March, he was singing a different tune, warning people that they needed to do their part to stop the spread and take the virus seriously.

He also downplayed asymptomatic transmission on Jan. 28, saying what "people need to realize" is that in "all the history" of respiratory-borne viruses, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. By August, Fauci did a complete 180, saying asymptomatic cases were a driving factor in the community spread of COVID-19 despite a WHO admission that more evidence was needed to make this determination. In late August, researchers from Southern Medical University in Guangzhou concluded that "asymptomatic cases were least likely to infect their close contacts."

Fauci’s recommendations for treating COVID-19 have also been challenged by recent scientific data.

Fauci advocated the use of remdesivir in April, citing one trial prior to it being peer-reviewed, lauding it as a breakthrough “in diminishing time to recovery” for patients with COVID-19 and predicting it "will be the standard of care."

In November, however, the WHO warned against using remdesivir, saying that “there is currently no evidence that remdesivir improves survival and other outcomes in these patients.” The news came after Trump took the medication when he was diagnosed with COVID-19 in October and after the Food and Drug Administration approved it for the treatment of COVID-19.

Over the summer, Fauci dismissed hydroxychloroquine as a treatment after Trump touted the drug, saying research showed that it was not “effective." Trump was subsequently met with condemnation from the press and others. In November, however, a peer-reviewed study, which will be published in the International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, found that there were 84% fewer hospitalizations with patients who were given a drug cocktail containing hydroxychloroquine.

Fauci warned in a May hearing while the school closure debate was ongoing that Kawasaki disease, which causes inflammation in blood vessels in children, could be related to COVID-19. However, diagnoses of Kawasaki disease did not increase in 2020 compared to data from 2018 and 2019, according to research released in November.

Paul again directed his ire toward Fauci's COVID-19 advice last month, accusing him of glossing “over the science.”

"He believes that submission and lockdowns are fine," the senator said. "He's not too worried about individual liberties, but he also tends to gloss over the science, because we've had this debate back and forth about immunity.”
Much of this seems to be as suspected. "Gotchas" over policy recommendations changed, based on new information regarding the virus and conditions on the ground that warranted increased restrictions due to things like hospitals being overwhelmed. Not to mention they're dealing with a public that is largely non-compliant, mistrustful or ignorant of best science available to begin with, very mobile, with open borders between 50 states, each with their own priorities, demographics, sense of community, and aversion to preventable deaths.

That's why country to country, state to state and city to city comparisons are limited in their ability to accurately portray what's going on. EG:
I read recently that with the exception of a few outliers, most of the world is only now somewhat synchronized in virus activity levels and waves.

So much of the story is still unwritten. I continue to be interested in the final economics. How many lives could have been saved with more comprehensive lockdowns vs. the economic advantages of staying open. Aside from the possibility that lockdowns in general saved more lives and enabled a quicker recovery, there's also the sheer morality of it all.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
I know. That’s the question here. Lives vs. economy vs. freedom vs. convenience.

I also find it interesting that despite all of the lockdowns, the unemployment rate has remained relatively low. Targeted and consistent bailouts of sectors like food and beverage service and live entertainment from the early stages may have eliminated much of the complaining and conspiracy theories.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
That last part is key. Everyone could have been better including political leaders with their messaging.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:10 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
I know. That’s the question here. Lives vs. economy vs. freedom vs. convenience.

I also find it interesting that despite all of the lockdowns, the unemployment rate has remained relatively low. Targeted and consistent bailouts of sectors like food and beverage service and live entertainment from the early stages may have eliminated much of the complaining and conspiracy theories.
There’s no question for me.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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kalm wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:50 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
That last part is key. Everyone could have been better including political leaders with their messaging.
We are saddled with a government that politicizes EVERYTHING. ALWAYS to our detriment.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
Could have been better if gubmint took a less authoritative tact from the get go.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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SDHornet wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:25 pm
:shock: :dunce: :lol: :rofl:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by kalm »

SDHornet wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:24 pm
Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
Could have been better if gubmint took a less authoritative tact from the get go.
:rofl:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Daughter and in-laws were vaccinated yesterday. MIL, 87, had a fever from the Pfizer shot, FIL, 92, no issues.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

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Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm
AZGrizFan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Lives could ALWAYS be saved if we locked down indefinitely. Less travel, fewer accidents, etc., etc. LIVING is not about saving lives. If saving lives and extending life were the end goal society and societal norms would look a WHOLE lot different than they do (or used to).
Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
It wasn’t worth saving 45,000 lives a year, but it is for some number higher than that, apparently....somewhere between 45,000 and 450,000...don’t quite know where the tipping point is.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:03 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:07 pm

Saved a lot of lives by eliminating the flu deaths with covid protocol, aka masks, washing, distancing. Could have been better had everyone followed these, including stopping govt from issuing lockdowns.
It wasn’t worth saving 45,000 lives a year, but it is for some number higher than that, apparently....somewhere between 45,000 and 450,000...don’t quite know where the tipping point is.
I call shenanigans, without the protocol measures, it would have been a much higher death toll for Covid. You are comparing deaths by flu without protocols in place, to deaths from Covid with protocols in place, apples and oranges.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:42 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:03 am

It wasn’t worth saving 45,000 lives a year, but it is for some number higher than that, apparently....somewhere between 45,000 and 450,000...don’t quite know where the tipping point is.
I call shenanigans, without the protocol measures, it would have been a much higher death toll for Covid. You are comparing deaths by flu without protocols in place, to deaths from Covid with protocols in place, apples and oranges.
But there are protocols in place and there have been record daily deaths (at least here in CA) hit months after those protocols were put in place. And don't give me the "people aren't complying" BS. Nearly everyone is masked up when I run errands, and bars and restaurants and large gatherings have been shutdown for nearly a year now.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Gil Dobie »

SDHornet wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:38 am
Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:42 am

I call shenanigans, without the protocol measures, it would have been a much higher death toll for Covid. You are comparing deaths by flu without protocols in place, to deaths from Covid with protocols in place, apples and oranges.
But there are protocols in place and there have been record daily deaths (at least here in CA) hit months after those protocols were put in place. And don't give me the "people aren't complying" BS. Nearly everyone is masked up when I run errands, and bars and restaurants and large gatherings have been shutdown for nearly a year now.
In Minnesota, most of the cases came from gatherings in homes, where are Cali's cases coming from?
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by SDHornet »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:44 am
SDHornet wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:38 am

But there are protocols in place and there have been record daily deaths (at least here in CA) hit months after those protocols were put in place. And don't give me the "people aren't complying" BS. Nearly everyone is masked up when I run errands, and bars and restaurants and large gatherings have been shutdown for nearly a year now.
In Minnesota, most of the cases came from gatherings in homes, where are Cali's cases coming from?
Newsom's failure as a governor. :coffee:
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by Winterborn »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:42 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:03 am

It wasn’t worth saving 45,000 lives a year, but it is for some number higher than that, apparently....somewhere between 45,000 and 450,000...don’t quite know where the tipping point is.

I call shenanigans, without the protocol measures, it would have been a much higher death toll for Covid
. You are comparing deaths by flu without protocols in place, to deaths from Covid with protocols in place, apples and oranges.

This is only a maybe right now. Everything is too politicized and with the shape the current data is in it is going to take years to figure this out accurately due to incompetence in how the data was collected and it being a political firestorm.

But that will not stop both sides from declaring a moral victory and trying to delegitimatize the other side.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19

Post by AZGrizFan »

Gil Dobie wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:42 am
AZGrizFan wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:03 am

It wasn’t worth saving 45,000 lives a year, but it is for some number higher than that, apparently....somewhere between 45,000 and 450,000...don’t quite know where the tipping point is.
I call shenanigans, without the protocol measures, it would have been a much higher death toll for Covid. You are comparing deaths by flu without protocols in place, to deaths from Covid with protocols in place, apples and oranges.
I understand that. Pick a number then, 600,000? 800,000? My point is, 45,000 lives weren’t enough....how do you suppose those who lost relatives and loved ones to the flu every year feel about that?
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