Thank you for the correction. Obviously, my aged mind was veering off into the Non-Proliferation Treaty. But that’s another story for another day.Skjellyfetti wrote:Yep.Ivytalk wrote: the only effective non-tariff way of dealing with the Red Chunks may be countervailing multilateral trade agreements with allies or nonaligned countries, like the NPT was supposed to be.
TPP was an imperfect way to counter China. But, way better than a Trade War, imo.
Similarly, the Iran Deal was imperfect... but, better than current flexing, and obviously better than a war if it leads to that.
Chinese Trade War
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Re: Chinese Trade War
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
I just read the article you linked again and am wondering if you linked the article you meant to link. The article you linked is basically an argument that the Chinese are approaching this situation in a much more intelligent manner than Trump is. And I don't see anything in it at all about the Chinese paying tariffs to keep work in China. Instead, it is about things like the Chinese reducing tariffs on imports from other countries (such as Canada) while it increases tariffs on imports from the United States. In certain areas. It's also about China being selective in what it imposes tariffs on. The subtitle to the headline pretty much summarizes the point of the piece:SeattleGriz wrote:No, the Chinese are paying the tariffs to keep work in China.JohnStOnge wrote:
So the Chinese are approaching the situation more intelligently than Trump is? Wow. What a shocker.
As Trump focuses on disruption, Beijing is evidently operating on a higher level.
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Could I ever be a star?
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
Which article? Are we talking the Bloomberg article? The one about Giant bicycles moving?JohnStOnge wrote:I just read the article you linked again and am wondering if you linked the article you meant to link. The article you linked is basically an argument that the Chinese are approaching this situation in a much more intelligent manner than Trump is. And I don't see anything in it at all about the Chinese paying tariffs to keep work in China. Instead, it is about things like the Chinese reducing tariffs on imports from other countries (such as Canada) while it increases tariffs on imports from the United States. In certain areas. It's also about China being selective in what it imposes tariffs on. The subtitle to the headline pretty much summarizes the point of the piece:SeattleGriz wrote:No, the Chinese are paying the tariffs to keep work in China.
As Trump focuses on disruption, Beijing is evidently operating on a higher level.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
How exactly do you lose 1.2 Trillion?
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Dataw ... disappears
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Dataw ... disappears
The International Monetary Fund forecasts that China's current-account balance will turn negative in 2022, due to the effects of the U.S. trade war and other developments. Under the surface, a huge outflow of money is widening beyond the control of the government's strict regulators.
The trend raises the possibility of a shift in the global balance of power.
A total of $1.2 trillion has "disappeared" from China's statistics in a little over a decade, potentially undermining the clout the country has sought to build through the Belt and Road infrastructure initiative and huge investments in U.S. government bonds.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Ha! China's thinks putting the last guy they demoted back into the equation that they can go back to previous negotiations.
Trump says no concessions.
Only time will tell, it sure looks like Trump completely outmaneuvered Xi.
Trump says no concessions.
Only time will tell, it sure looks like Trump completely outmaneuvered Xi.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
One of the underlying goals is to get US companies to get their goods manufactured in countries other than China. The Govt. can't force them to do it but the conditions can get them to do it willingly. CNBC did a report from Vietnam today that touched on the move many companies are making from China to Vietnam. The funny thing is, China is also moving many things to Vietnam also. China's rising wages are forcing them to seek cheaper labor too.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
I'm just glad we finally have someone with the balls to negotiate a decent deal.CAA Flagship wrote:One of the underlying goals is to get US companies to get their goods manufactured in countries other than China. The Govt. can't force them to do it but the conditions can get them to do it willingly. CNBC did a report from Vietnam today that touched on the move many companies are making from China to Vietnam. The funny thing is, China is also moving many things to Vietnam also. China's rising wages are forcing them to seek cheaper labor too.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
There may never be a deal. A "deal" may or may not be the goal. This is economic warfare with a foreign state that cheats their asses off. Announcement of any "deal" would not mean much without following the spirit of the rules. Not sure that is in their interest.SeattleGriz wrote:I'm just glad we finally have someone with the balls to negotiate a decent deal.CAA Flagship wrote:One of the underlying goals is to get US companies to get their goods manufactured in countries other than China. The Govt. can't force them to do it but the conditions can get them to do it willingly. CNBC did a report from Vietnam today that touched on the move many companies are making from China to Vietnam. The funny thing is, China is also moving many things to Vietnam also. China's rising wages are forcing them to seek cheaper labor too.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Vietnam will not be a low cost option for long -CAA Flagship wrote:One of the underlying goals is to get US companies to get their goods manufactured in countries other than China. The Govt. can't force them to do it but the conditions can get them to do it willingly. CNBC did a report from Vietnam today that touched on the move many companies are making from China to Vietnam. The funny thing is, China is also moving many things to Vietnam also. China's rising wages are forcing them to seek cheaper labor too.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
I have had the added perspective of seeing Vietnam develop from 2010 until now, and in those 9 years Vietnam has progressed economically more quickly than any country I have ever seen. It is possible that the PRC itself never saw such internal development over any 9 year period of its existence.
Anecdotally, Vietnam is quickly catching up to and will surpass Thailand as the most developed country in mainland SE Asia - it may happen in as little as 10 years. It is good to see and a golden opportunity for us because the Vietnamese consider China as their number one geopolitical adversary. That is a 1000 year, culturally ingrained conflict. Thailand, on the other hand, is increasingly under the sway of Beijing.
On a micro scale, you can’t get a Tiger beer for less than 30-40K dong in Saigon. That’s double what it was in 2012.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Interesting. I just looked up the dong exchange rate on Xe.comCID1990 wrote:Vietnam will not be a low cost option for long -CAA Flagship wrote:One of the underlying goals is to get US companies to get their goods manufactured in countries other than China. The Govt. can't force them to do it but the conditions can get them to do it willingly. CNBC did a report from Vietnam today that touched on the move many companies are making from China to Vietnam. The funny thing is, China is also moving many things to Vietnam also. China's rising wages are forcing them to seek cheaper labor too.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
I have had the added perspective of seeing Vietnam develop from 2010 until now, and in those 9 years Vietnam has progressed economically more quickly than any country I have ever seen. It is possible that the PRC itself never saw such internal development over any 9 year period of its existence.
Anecdotally, Vietnam is quickly catching up to and will surpass Thailand as the most developed country in mainland SE Asia - it may happen in as little as 10 years. It is good to see and a golden opportunity for us because the Vietnamese consider China as their number one geopolitical adversary. That is a 1000 year, culturally ingrained conflict. Thailand, on the other hand, is increasingly under the sway of Beijing.
On a micro scale, you can’t get a Tiger beer for less than 30-40K dong in Saigon. That’s double what it was in 2012.
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1 US dollar = 23,292.73 VND.
So 30,000-40,000 dongs = between about $1.29 and $1.72....
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
How many Dongs does it take to get your wankie yankied?CID1990 wrote:Vietnam will not be a low cost option for long -CAA Flagship wrote:One of the underlying goals is to get US companies to get their goods manufactured in countries other than China. The Govt. can't force them to do it but the conditions can get them to do it willingly. CNBC did a report from Vietnam today that touched on the move many companies are making from China to Vietnam. The funny thing is, China is also moving many things to Vietnam also. China's rising wages are forcing them to seek cheaper labor too.
This chess match will not end anytime soon, but it is fascinating to watch.
I have had the added perspective of seeing Vietnam develop from 2010 until now, and in those 9 years Vietnam has progressed economically more quickly than any country I have ever seen. It is possible that the PRC itself never saw such internal development over any 9 year period of its existence.
Anecdotally, Vietnam is quickly catching up to and will surpass Thailand as the most developed country in mainland SE Asia - it may happen in as little as 10 years. It is good to see and a golden opportunity for us because the Vietnamese consider China as their number one geopolitical adversary. That is a 1000 year, culturally ingrained conflict. Thailand, on the other hand, is increasingly under the sway of Beijing.
On a micro scale, you can’t get a Tiger beer for less than 30-40K dong in Saigon. That’s double what it was in 2012.
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Last edited by UNI88 on Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
That's about right - its still cheaper than in the US but I miss the days of 50 cent beers in Saigon (and those were the pricey ones)BDKJMU wrote:Interesting. I just looked up the dong exchange rate on Xe.comCID1990 wrote:
Vietnam will not be a low cost option for long -
I have had the added perspective of seeing Vietnam develop from 2010 until now, and in those 9 years Vietnam has progressed economically more quickly than any country I have ever seen. It is possible that the PRC itself never saw such internal development over any 9 year period of its existence.
Anecdotally, Vietnam is quickly catching up to and will surpass Thailand as the most developed country in mainland SE Asia - it may happen in as little as 10 years. It is good to see and a golden opportunity for us because the Vietnamese consider China as their number one geopolitical adversary. That is a 1000 year, culturally ingrained conflict. Thailand, on the other hand, is increasingly under the sway of Beijing.
On a micro scale, you can’t get a Tiger beer for less than 30-40K dong in Saigon. That’s double what it was in 2012.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1 US dollar = 23,292.73 VND.
So 30,000-40,000 dongs = between about $1.29 and $1.72....
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Re: Chinese Trade War
We'll, well. Looks like China is back at the drawing table right where they left off.
3D chess
3D chess
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Re: Chinese Trade War
Oh thank goodness... So we won the trade warSeattleGriz wrote:We'll, well. Looks like China is back at the drawing table right where they left off.
3D chess
I was hoping we would win
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
China plays a zero sum game and right now it looks like they will accept some loss in trade.Chizzang wrote:Oh thank goodness... So we won the trade warSeattleGriz wrote:We'll, well. Looks like China is back at the drawing table right where they left off.
3D chess
I was hoping we would win
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
Accuracy.SeattleGriz wrote:China plays a dim sum gameChizzang wrote:
Oh thank goodness... So we won the trade war
I was hoping we would win
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot. Plus, right now, we have a complete idiot as the head of our government. Chinese leadership vs. US leadership is a total mismatch in favor of the Chinese.SeattleGriz wrote:China plays a zero sum game and right now it looks like they will accept some loss in trade.Chizzang wrote:
Oh thank goodness... So we won the trade war
I was hoping we would win
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And say things as they really are
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Re: Chinese Trade War
That horse is dead, JohnJohnStOnge wrote:The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot.SeattleGriz wrote:China plays a zero sum game and right now it looks like they will accept some loss in trade.
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
Do you even know who is negotiating on the American side?JohnStOnge wrote:The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot. Plus, right now, we have a complete idiot as the head of our government. Chinese leadership vs. US leadership is a total mismatch in favor of the Chinese.SeattleGriz wrote:China plays a zero sum game and right now it looks like they will accept some loss in trade.
Mnuchin, Ross and Lighthizer. They aren't the hacks you portray them to be.
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
John, we haven't had a capable diplomat in the oval office since HW.JohnStOnge wrote:The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot. Plus, right now, we have a complete idiot as the head of our government. Chinese leadership vs. US leadership is a total mismatch in favor of the Chinese.SeattleGriz wrote:China plays a zero sum game and right now it looks like they will accept some loss in trade.
We should have done this (tariffs) at least 10-20+ years ago but better late than never. And for all of Trumpster's buffoonery, that blind pig sure seems to find some acorns.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
I suppose so. But the bottom line is that people in the United States have benefitted from the situation. It has been more positive than negative for the "typical" American. That's why the situation is what it is now.CID1990 wrote:That horse is dead, JohnJohnStOnge wrote:
The big thing is that Chinese leaders can play the long game and US leaders cannot.
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
I don't think Trump knows what he's doing. And I think Trump will lose. Doesn't mean I KNOW he will lose. But, to me, the idea that he holds the cards is absurd. I think the Chinese hold the cards because US consumers have benefitted greatly from the trade situation as it is.
Well, I believe that I must tell the truth
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
And say things as they really are
But if I told the truth and nothing but the truth
Could I ever be a star?
Deep Purple: No One Came
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Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
John, we've been losing since the Chinese first required companies wanting access to their market to set up manufacturing facilities in China where they could learn and copy the technologies and techniques. Doing nothing and continuing the status quo is losing so we might as well try something.JohnStOnge wrote:I suppose so. But the bottom line is that people in the United States have benefitted from the situation. It has been more positive than negative for the "typical" American. That's why the situation is what it is now.CID1990 wrote:
That horse is dead, John
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
I don't think Trump knows what he's doing. And I think Trump will lose. Doesn't mean I KNOW he will lose. But, to me, the idea that he holds the cards is absurd. I think the Chinese hold the cards because US consumers have benefitted greatly from the trade situation as it is.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
OK. So as long as we keep getting flooded with cheap Chinese sh*t, whatever the Red Chunks do with our technology is OK. Gotcha. No existential threat here. Move along.JohnStOnge wrote:I suppose so. But the bottom line is that people in the United States have benefitted from the situation. It has been more positive than negative for the "typical" American. That's why the situation is what it is now.CID1990 wrote:
That horse is dead, John
The answer is to acknowledge the advantages of their dictatorial system and then do nothing. That’s what you’re arguing for.
I don't think Trump knows what he's doing. And I think Trump will lose. Doesn't mean I KNOW he will lose. But, to me, the idea that he holds the cards is absurd. I think the Chinese hold the cards because US consumers have benefitted greatly from the trade situation as it is.
A generation or two ago, before WalMart, we were flooded with cheap Japanese sh*t. Remember that? But we adjusted without losing our intellectual property.
Last edited by Ivytalk on Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Chinese Trade War
This is why they stepped away the first time...because we had specifically set up the rules to punish theft. Rules and enforcement specific to the industry.UNI88 wrote:John, we've been losing since the Chinese first required companies wanting access to their market to set up manufacturing facilities in China where they could learn and copy the technologies and techniques. Doing nothing and continuing the status quo is losing so we might as well try something.JohnStOnge wrote:
I suppose so. But the bottom line is that people in the United States have benefitted from the situation. It has been more positive than negative for the "typical" American. That's why the situation is what it is now.
I don't think Trump knows what he's doing. And I think Trump will lose. Doesn't mean I KNOW he will lose. But, to me, the idea that he holds the cards is absurd. I think the Chinese hold the cards because US consumers have benefitted greatly from the trade situation as it is.
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China says that it gave the US too much power. Or to say it another way, it finally was going to hold China accountable.
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Re: Chinese Trade War
I'm still in possession of some of that Japanese shit.Ivytalk wrote:OK. So as long as we keep getting flooded with cheap Chinese sh*t, whatever the Red Chunks do with our technology is OK. Gotcha. No existential threat here. Move along.JohnStOnge wrote:
I suppose so. But the bottom line is that people in the United States have benefitted from the situation. It has been more positive than negative for the "typical" American. That's why the situation is what it is now.
I don't think Trump knows what he's doing. And I think Trump will lose. Doesn't mean I KNOW he will lose. But, to me, the idea that he holds the cards is absurd. I think the Chinese hold the cards because US consumers have benefitted greatly from the trade situation as it is.
A generation or two ago, before WalMart, we were flooded with cheap Japanese sh*t. Remember that? But we adjusted without losing our intellectual property.