Migrant Caravan

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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by AZGrizFan »

GannonFan wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Don't most illegal immigrants end up in liberal areas? We have a sizeable population where I live to the point I know a couple. They typically blend in fairly well, do jobs no one else want to work, and don't really cause issues. And a few do bad stuff which is typical within any amount of people - illegal or otherwise.

Maybe I'm a very old-school American, but I think this country is for anyone who can make it to our shores and wants to put in the effort. I don't give a **** if they're making it here through a formal process or through the cover of darkness in the dessert. Don't care if they're Latino, African, European, Middle-Eastern, Asian, or from space. Don't care if they have an education or skill. Don't care what their religion is. Don't care if they're disabled. Don't care for their age or sex. As long as they care about the fundamental right to freedom, that's good enough for me.
Aren't you the same guy who complains about "old people" (i.e. those 55 years or older) staying in the market and holding onto jobs that would otherwise be open to idling millennials? How do you think the open borders scenario you are advocating would play out with the tremendous numbers of migrants who would flock here if we just simply opened the doors and said come on over? How do you figure all of these unfettered migrants will be accommodated? Where will they work? Where will they live? Your "old-school" American idea that remembers fondly the open borders policy of the pre-1900's America is noble and rosey-sounding, but even the America of that time was not an idyllic wonderland for fresh immigrants.

I don't mind your ideals, in fact your ideals are greatly admirable. But ideals that can't at some point be realistic aren't terribly helpful.
That was LAST week, Ganny.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
I guess you haven't been paying attention Clodz

Hillary came out last week and said governments (like in Europe) need to get a hold on immigration because failure to do so gives rise to populist nationalism

It was a rare moment of truth from Hillary- and she's getting pilloried on the left for it

Abolish ICE tells us all we need to know where the "progressive" left stands on the issue - and in the primaries it is going to be a sprint to the left - it is going to cost the Dems a lot of votes in two years

hell they might find a way to lose to Trump a second time - which would be amazing, frankly

BTW i noticed how you conflated immigration with race- its the same logic used to counter people who call out hardcore Islam .... interesting
In America immigration is a race issue - in case maybe you didn't notice...
or are just pretending to not notice like a college student

and this won't be the "thing" that keeps the left from getting rid of Trump
People not voting is what will keep Trump in office

:nod:
I see

Just like criticism of Islam is a race issue

Voter apathy on the Dem side? In 2020? Are you smoking weed?

Immigration is a hot button issue and it is the one issue the DNC has failed to keep under control from the left flank. It will be the #2 issue of concern for voters after the economy.

Hillary might well be running again - and her comments in Europe are classic Clinton triangulation. Why is that?


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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by css75 »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
:lol:

Thank goodness the voice of reason stopped by
Straight out of a white suburban conservative neighborhood
to comment on white suburban liberal neighborhoods

:clap:
Don't most illegal immigrants end up in liberal areas? We have a sizeable population where I live to the point I know a couple. They typically blend in fairly well, do jobs no one else want to work, and don't really cause issues. And a few do bad stuff which is typical within any amount of people - illegal or otherwise.

Maybe I'm a very old-school American, but I think this country is for anyone who can make it to our shores and wants to put in the effort. I don't give a **** if they're making it here through a formal process or through the cover of darkness in the dessert. Don't care if they're Latino, African, European, Middle-Eastern, Asian, or from space. Don't care if they have an education or skill. Don't care what their religion is. Don't care if they're disabled. Don't care for their age or sex. As long as they care about the fundamental right to freedom, that's good enough for me.
Agree if they come in legally. Law breakers do not belong here. They need to go home.


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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by css75 »

Chizzang wrote:
CAA Flagship wrote: It's a matter of contributing to society like everyone else does. Do you want to get hit by a car driven by an illegal that has no license and no insurance? Is it OK if they have a job that pays cash and are not taxed? Is it OK if their healthcare needs are taken care of at a hospital and the costs are shared by everyone else? Is it OK if their children are attending public schools where they are not contributing to the education costs? We have enough problems with legal residents doing all these things.
All I care about is that we know who you are and that you are contributing your share to society.

The problem of immigration is solved at the TOP OF SOCIETY
If we make it extremely painful to get caught with employed illegals the problem goes away

They come here because companies hire them
Not because Liberals say dumb romantic things about immigration

They come for work
and we're doing nothing to change that no mater how many dumb things Liberals say

This needs to be a very important component of any immigration deal. Fine the crap out of anyone hiring them.


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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
In America immigration is a race issue - in case maybe you didn't notice...
or are just pretending to not notice like a college student

and this won't be the "thing" that keeps the left from getting rid of Trump
People not voting is what will keep Trump in office

:nod:
I see

Just like criticism of Islam is a race issue

Voter apathy on the Dem side? In 2020? Are you smoking weed?

Immigration is a hot button issue and it is the one issue the DNC has failed to keep under control from the left flank. It will be the #2 issue of concern for voters after the economy.

Hillary might well be running again - and her comments in Europe are classic Clinton triangulation. Why is that?
I'm not arguing with you...
and I haven't read anything Hilary has said in over 12 months

all the Hilary obsessions aside - You know and I know...
if it was blonde white women sneaking into the country and picking lettuce at Del Monte
nobody would give a flying fuck

:lol:

If it was blonde white women machine gunning down comic book artists in the streets of Paris
and machine gunning night clubs in Miami
well...that makes for an interesting debate

I'm open to having it
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
I see

Just like criticism of Islam is a race issue

Voter apathy on the Dem side? In 2020? Are you smoking weed?

Immigration is a hot button issue and it is the one issue the DNC has failed to keep under control from the left flank. It will be the #2 issue of concern for voters after the economy.

Hillary might well be running again - and her comments in Europe are classic Clinton triangulation. Why is that?
I'm not arguing with you...
and I haven't read anything Hilary has said in over 12 months

all the Hilary obsessions aside - You know and I know...
if it was blonde white women sneaking into the country and picking lettuce at Del Monte
nobody would give a flying ****

:lol:

If it was blonde white women machine gunning down comic book artists in the streets of Paris
and machine gunning night clubs in Miami
well...that makes for an interesting debate

I'm open to having it
The logic is equally suspect in both arguments

There are perfectly legitimate reasons why we should be able to enforce our immigration laws and have secure borders - reasons that have nothing to do with race

Just as there are perfectly legitimate, nonracial grounded reasons to be critical of Islam


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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ivytalk »

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single-payer :coffee:
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Chizzang »

CID1990 wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
I'm not arguing with you...
and I haven't read anything Hilary has said in over 12 months

all the Hilary obsessions aside - You know and I know...
if it was blonde white women sneaking into the country and picking lettuce at Del Monte
nobody would give a flying ****

:lol:

If it was blonde white women machine gunning down comic book artists in the streets of Paris
and machine gunning night clubs in Miami
well...that makes for an interesting debate

I'm open to having it
The logic is equally suspect in both arguments

There are perfectly legitimate reasons why we should be able to enforce our immigration laws and have secure borders - reasons that have nothing to do with race

Just as there are perfectly legitimate, nonracial grounded reasons to be critical of Islam
Um... I said like 15 years ago on here
All we need to do is enforce the immigration laws that are already on the books

I'm simply making observations
and an obvious one at that
racism and immigration paranoia are related

:coffee:

It's a right wing trigger to say it... and that's not why I'm saying it
I'm saying it because it's true
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by AZGrizFan »

So virtually every country in Europe is racist? Because they do a MUCH better job of controlling their borders than we do.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Chizzang »

AZGrizFan wrote:So virtually every country in Europe is racist? Because they do a MUCH better job of controlling their borders than we do.
I don't know about that...
You might want to read my post where I say "American Immigration"

Look I get that this hurts everybody's feelings
and I honestly don't even care about immigration
It's just an observation

You're free to completely disagree
and say that building a wall is about saving hard working american crop workers jobs
or whatever you want -

:lol:
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by SDHornet »

Funny seeing how the msm narrative on this "migrant caravan" has morphed from being a fake Trump talking point during the election, to just being women and children, to being a peaceful protest...can't wait for the next plot twist. :rofl:
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by CID1990 »

Chizzang wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
The logic is equally suspect in both arguments

There are perfectly legitimate reasons why we should be able to enforce our immigration laws and have secure borders - reasons that have nothing to do with race

Just as there are perfectly legitimate, nonracial grounded reasons to be critical of Islam
Um... I said like 15 years ago on here
All we need to do is enforce the immigration laws that are already on the books

I'm simply making observations
and an obvious one at that
racism and immigration paranoia are related

:coffee:

It's a right wing trigger to say it... and that's not why I'm saying it
I'm saying it because it's true
Well, yeah ok - thanks for pointing out that useless trivia

You get no argument from me about whacking people who hire illegals - I've long been a proponent of very stiff penalties for that - up to putting the occasional CEO in prison

But I do believe you'll find that opposition to uncontrolled immigration has more to do with the uncontrolled part than it has anything to do with race. And frankly, I don't care one whit if there are Americans out there who don't want immigrants from Latin America because of racial animus. It doesn't change the fact that any country that cannot control its own borders is failing its own citizens. Being in favor of open borders simple because someone is against it for racial reasons is pure stupidity - the legitimate and illegitimate policy ends are the same

If you look around the world, many immigration policies are largely geared towards preserving cultural and racial identity (see: Japan, China, pretty much every country in Asia). We don't really have a racial identity in America but we DO have a cultural one and among several other legitimate arguments for controlled immigration, that is a big one for me. Your rank and file Central Americans have zero cultural tradition of limited government, and zero loyalty to the US tradition of a representative Republic. Enlightenment to Central Americans means Simon Bolivar, not Alexander Hamilton - it means Liberation Theology rather than civics, and quite frankly, I find the typical civic slant of Central Americans to be poisonous, having lived there. That has zero to do with skin color and everything to do with culture.

I'm fine with admitting any person from any country in the world as long as they want to actually be Americans. And there are ways to determine that desire as a condition of entry. France and Australia already do it.... they require the ability to speak French and English, respectively- but the minute someone in the US suggests it, out come the racial tropes - the same discussion ending strategy used in discussions about Islam
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
:lol:

Thank goodness the voice of reason stopped by
Straight out of a white suburban conservative neighborhood
to comment on white suburban liberal neighborhoods

:clap:
Don't most illegal immigrants end up in liberal areas? We have a sizeable population where I live to the point I know a couple. They typically blend in fairly well, do jobs no one else want to work, and don't really cause issues. And a few do bad stuff which is typical within any amount of people - illegal or otherwise.

Maybe I'm a very old-school American, but I think this country is for anyone who can make it to our shores and wants to put in the effort. I don't give a shit if they're making it here through a formal process or through the cover of darkness in the dessert. Don't care if they're Latino, African, European, Middle-Eastern, Asian, or from space. Don't care if they have an education or skill. Don't care what their religion is. Don't care if they're disabled. Don't care for their age or sex. As long as they care about the fundamental right to freedom, that's good enough for me.
You don't understand that all of those illegal people are living in fear of deportation? They can be taken advantage of by people more easily (there are plenty of cases of people not paying illegals and then calling INS/ICE on them). They consume public goods and services yet they don't chip in. I can't see how you expect our social services to be sustainable if we just absorb a bunch of people that won't contribute.

Oh yeah, that's right. It's the responsibility of everyone else to care for them. Charity stops at a certain point. :twocents: It makes zero sense to me why we would accept people that are illegal.

Honestly, i'm shocked that the GOP doesn't push hard for Amnesty and try to be-friend them as a group. Talk about increasing your voter rolls.

Btw, which old school American are you? The ones that didn't want to the Irish or Italians? The ones that passed laws limiting the number of Chinese? :coffee:


C'mon trip, you can't be that naive.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ibanez »

GannonFan wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Don't most illegal immigrants end up in liberal areas? We have a sizeable population where I live to the point I know a couple. They typically blend in fairly well, do jobs no one else want to work, and don't really cause issues. And a few do bad stuff which is typical within any amount of people - illegal or otherwise.

Maybe I'm a very old-school American, but I think this country is for anyone who can make it to our shores and wants to put in the effort. I don't give a **** if they're making it here through a formal process or through the cover of darkness in the dessert. Don't care if they're Latino, African, European, Middle-Eastern, Asian, or from space. Don't care if they have an education or skill. Don't care what their religion is. Don't care if they're disabled. Don't care for their age or sex. As long as they care about the fundamental right to freedom, that's good enough for me.
Aren't you the same guy who complains about "old people" (i.e. those 55 years or older) staying in the market and holding onto jobs that would otherwise be open to idling millennials? How do you think the open borders scenario you are advocating would play out with the tremendous numbers of migrants who would flock here if we just simply opened the doors and said come on over? How do you figure all of these unfettered migrants will be accommodated? Where will they work? Where will they live? Your "old-school" American idea that remembers fondly the open borders policy of the pre-1900's America is noble and rosey-sounding, but even the America of that time was not an idyllic wonderland for fresh immigrants.

I don't mind your ideals, in fact your ideals are greatly admirable. But ideals that can't at some point be realistic aren't terribly helpful.
SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Aren't you the same guy who complains about "old people" (i.e. those 55 years or older) staying in the market and holding onto jobs that would otherwise be open to idling millennials? How do you think the open borders scenario you are advocating would play out with the tremendous numbers of migrants who would flock here if we just simply opened the doors and said come on over? How do you figure all of these unfettered migrants will be accommodated? Where will they work? Where will they live? Your "old-school" American idea that remembers fondly the open borders policy of the pre-1900's America is noble and rosey-sounding, but even the America of that time was not an idyllic wonderland for fresh immigrants.

I don't mind your ideals, in fact your ideals are greatly admirable. But ideals that can't at some point be realistic aren't terribly helpful.
SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
I'm pretty sure it was just the Irish.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
I'm pretty sure it was just the Irish.
Page Act
Chinese Exclusion Act
Geary Act

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Lets not forget that we also denied people with Epilepsy into the country...so my father would've been turned away. We also had a requirement that you know some of the English language, couldn't be disabled, a prostitute or a beggar. Ah yes...the good ole days.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote:
kalm wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was just the Irish.
Page Act
Chinese Exclusion Act
Geary Act

Image


Lets not forget that we also denied people with Epilepsy into the country...so my father would've been turned away. We also had a requirement that you know some of the English language, couldn't be disabled, a prostitute or a beggar. Ah yes...the good ole days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote:
Ibanez wrote: Page Act
Chinese Exclusion Act
Geary Act

Image


Lets not forget that we also denied people with Epilepsy into the country...so my father would've been turned away. We also had a requirement that you know some of the English language, couldn't be disabled, a prostitute or a beggar. Ah yes...the good ole days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw
I can't view that at work. Can you give me the executive summary?
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by kalm »

Ibanez wrote:
I can't view that at work. Can you give me the executive summary?
"There was peaceful town called Rockridge...."
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ibanez »

kalm wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
I can't view that at work. Can you give me the executive summary?
"There was peaceful town called Rockridge...."
Ah..


That's where I thought you were going. :thumb:
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Ibanez wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
Aren't you the same guy who complains about "old people" (i.e. those 55 years or older) staying in the market and holding onto jobs that would otherwise be open to idling millennials? How do you think the open borders scenario you are advocating would play out with the tremendous numbers of migrants who would flock here if we just simply opened the doors and said come on over? How do you figure all of these unfettered migrants will be accommodated? Where will they work? Where will they live? Your "old-school" American idea that remembers fondly the open borders policy of the pre-1900's America is noble and rosey-sounding, but even the America of that time was not an idyllic wonderland for fresh immigrants.

I don't mind your ideals, in fact your ideals are greatly admirable. But ideals that can't at some point be realistic aren't terribly helpful.
SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
Of course they were xenophobic AF...no argument there. Still was fairly open door.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by CAA Flagship »

Ibanez wrote: SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
....until they were introduced to pizza.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by GannonFan »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
Of course they were xenophobic AF...no argument there. Still was fairly open door.
Again, it's easy to be "open door" when you pass laws to ban certain ethnic groups (again, Chinese Exclusion Act(s), plural) and also when government has zero safety nets in place as well as tons of unclaimed lands. This isn't the 1800's anymore, there aren't swaths of unoccupied land, we have social services in place to help deal with the poor and the indigent that would be overwhelmed by the unlimited immigration you propose. The 1800's America was pretty much a racist and xenophobic country by today's standards - it didn't really matter that much if newly arrived Irish were dying in rot-filled ghettos or if the Asians that were let in were dying while working in awful conditions in the West as they were putting together the ever increasing amount of railroads. It's historically ignorant to cherry pick the seemingly "open door" policy of that era while ignoring the accompanying ugliness of that reality as well. Again, I don't diminish your ideals, we should want to help any and everyone - but it needs to be balanced with the fiscal reality of how we do that and what is sustainable longterm.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by Ibanez »

∞∞∞ wrote:
Ibanez wrote:
SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
Of course they were xenophobic AF...no argument there. Still was fairly open door.
Yeah....because they weren't many laws governing/restricting immigrants as a whole until the early 20th Century. :dunce:

You still are ignoring the fact that a host of illegal immigrants will NOT be contributing to your society. They won't be taxed, they won't assimilate yet they'll use our hospitals, schools, social services, etc....

Honest question Trip, why don't Democrats want to enforce our immigration laws?
Last edited by Ibanez on Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Migrant Caravan

Post by GannonFan »

CAA Flagship wrote:
Ibanez wrote: SO I made the same post yesterday, wrote it out and forgot to hit submit.

That's a great point. Liberals/leftists LOVE to talk about the old America where we were an open door. But they forget that then, just as today, Americans were xenophobic. There are reasons other than cultural unity that little Italy's, Chinatowns, Little Havana's,etc...sprouted up. Natives didn't want the Italians, Cubans, Chinese, Irish, etc... living with them. Or working with them.
....until they were introduced to pizza.
Sure, some were, but you still had the ones who derided Italians as "garlic eaters" even in the movies like "It's a Wonderful Life" - stereotypes were still strong and publicly permitted well into the latter half of the 20th century.
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